Russian Tsar Nicholas I decides to "solve" Russia's "Jewish problem" by forcibly relocating all Russian Jews to Siberia in 1835

[WolfBear]

What if Russian Tsar Nicholas I decides to "solve" Russia's "Jewish problem" by forcibly relocating all Russian Jews to Siberia in or around 1835? Let's say that he'll believe that he'll be doing Polish, Ukrainian, and Belarusian peasants and townspeople a favor by doing this by getting rid of their Jewish competition and, of course, "predatory Jewish financiers" or whatever. Somewhere in Siberia, Russian Tsar Nicholas I will order the creation of a new Pale of Settlement for Russia's entire Jewish population.

I was initially thinking that such a deportation would result in a lot of deaths, but I'm not so sure now because some Russian Jews were wealthy and thus could presumably afford horses to make this extremely long trip--and presumably could be taxed to provide horses for the rest of Russia's Jewish population for this trip as well. Still, this was in the pre-railroad era, especially in Russia, so such a trip is likely to be arduous as Hell. In order to relocate Russia's entire Jewish population to Siberia, it might take several years or even longer. And then the question would be what exactly they would do after they actually got to Siberia--would they engage in commerce? Banking? Try their hand at farming? Something else?

I also wonder just how exactly the international community is going to react to all of this and whether a lot of Russian Jews are going to try emigrating in response to this, and to where exactly? Will the US see a huge wave of Russian Jewish immigration half a century earlier than it did in real life, for instance?

In this scenario, I would presume that Russian Tsar Nicholas I would be viewed as a Hitler-type figure, but that's simply because this TL simply hasn't had anyone comparable to the actual Hitler yet.

Anyway, what do you think about this?

 

[Julio92]

Apart from the farming necessary to sustain ~1 million people I guess logging, trapping, and supplying the trappers I imagine, much of the population will be put to work as the early penal settlers were, building the most basic infrastructure necessary to populate the area, clearing forests, building roads, dredging streams.

Say ~50000 a year(approximately 1 village of ~150 people per day) could be moved without inconveniencing the Russian state, the move would take ~20 years to complete. I'm not familiar with the Russians states resources at the time, but given the sizes of the Armies that Russia was able to project deep into Europe and France 20 years before hand and into Turkey, a couple years before, I think that is easily doable, maybe 2x-5x more depending on their commitment to the scheme.

 

[WolfBear]

Apart from the farming necessary to sustain ~1 million people I guess logging, trapping, and supplying the trappers I imagine, much of the population will be put to work as the early penal settlers were, building the most basic infrastructure necessary to populate the area, clearing forests, building roads, dredging streams.

Say ~50000 a year(approximately 1 village of ~150 people per day) could be moved without inconveniencing the Russian state, the move would take ~20 years to complete. I'm not familiar with the Russians states resources at the time, but given the sizes of the Armies that Russia was able to project deep into Europe and France 20 years before hand and into Turkey, a couple years before, I think that is easily doable, maybe 2x-5x more depending on their commitment to the scheme.

So, by the time of Nicholas I's death in December 1855, this project should be more-or-less completed?

 

[WolfBear]

BTW, which Russian Jews do you think will get deported to Siberia first? I think that the ones further to the east, such as in eastern Ukraine and Belarus, will get deported first since they're the geographically closest ones to Siberia:

https://archive.md/kXndD/e2c4325e0977baa68e8a70245a6b02145e10070d.png

I suspect that the easier the deportations will be, the earlier they will be conducted, with the Polish and Lithuanian Jews being deported last. But what do you personally think about this?

 

[Julio92]

I'd venture to say both the ones closest to the western border particularly the former Congress Polish western border would have equally high priority as the most easterly settlements.
I reason that the motivating factor in doing an interior expulsion, rather than an exterior expulsion, or a massacre, would be to still reap the fruits of the subject's labours in developing the wilderness, and repossessing their developed territories for one's own nationals in one stroke. Given that reasoning, the most easterly settlements would make the most logistical sense, for those, as you say involve the least distances travelled both for your subject frontiersmen, and your settlers re-occupying the vacated land.

But, I would think one has to consider why in such case would the urgency to do it *now*, and why hadn't it been done before, and why it could not be done later, or over a longer timeframe. I would venture to say the economic benefits are likely very backloaded, and thus not very attractive to a state insecure in its own power as Russia was vis-a-vis the other Great Powers of the time, Russia was never hegemon, but always playing catch-up, thus could little afford such a move. So I posit what would really trigger the "Tsar's Government" wanting to "make things better" for the Gentile peasants would be to keep the border regions pacified.

In light of the Polish Rebellion in 1830 that saw it's autonomy revoked which would seem to place Poles outside the benefactors of government schemes, I think the government would continue by its guiding principle of Orthodoxy, Autocracy, and Nationality, by principally benefiting its orthodox subjects, Russian one's in particular. Settling Russians on the border, ala Polish border strip or Israel's Jordan Valley settlements, would have allowed the government to have a freer hand in the evacuation, and expropriation of the Jewish settlements without international interference, and secures the integrity of the border with ethnic ties, preventing their wholesale breakaway.

 

[WolfBear]

I'd venture to say both the ones closest to the western border particularly the former Congress Polish western border would have equally high priority as the most easterly settlements.
I reason that the motivating factor in doing an interior expulsion, rather than an exterior expulsion, or a massacre, would be to still reap the fruits of the subject's labours in developing the wilderness, and repossessing their developed territories for one's own nationals in one stroke. Given that reasoning, the most easterly settlements would make the most logistical sense, for those, as you say involve the least distances travelled both for your subject frontiersmen, and your settlers re-occupying the vacated land.

But, I would think one has to consider why in such case would the urgency to do it *now*, and why hadn't it been done before, and why it could not be done later, or over a longer timeframe. I would venture to say the economic benefits are likely very backloaded, and thus not very attractive to a state insecure in its own power as Russia was vis-a-vis the other Great Powers of the time, Russia was never hegemon, but always playing catch-up, thus could little afford such a move. So I posit what would really trigger the "Tsar's Government" wanting to "make things better" for the Gentile peasants would be to keep the border regions pacified.

In light of the Polish Rebellion in 1830 that saw it's autonomy revoked which would seem to place Poles outside the benefactors of government schemes, I think the government would continue by its guiding principle of Orthodoxy, Autocracy, and Nationality, by principally benefiting its orthodox subjects, Russian one's in particular. Settling Russians on the border, ala Polish border strip or Israel's Jordan Valley settlements, would have allowed the government to have a freer hand in the evacuation, and expropriation of the Jewish settlements without international interference, and secures the integrity of the border with ethnic ties, preventing their wholesale breakaway.

Expelling Jews from Poland en masse so that Russians could resettle in their homes and on their properties en masse and thus significantly Russify Poland actually does sound rather brilliant. This would make any future Polish secession from Russia harder to do, albeit not completely impossible if Russian power will sufficiently weaken. It will also likely give Poland a double-digit Russian minority percentage.

 

[WolfBear]

Here is a map of the Polish percentage in various parts of the Russian Empire according to a World War I census by the German occupiers:




If this situation didn't change much since the 1830s, then this map could indicate which territories should get first priority in having their Jews deported--specifically the territories with a lot of Poles, since those are the most likely territories to have eventual unrest again in the future. Though Russia doesn't actually rule over Galicia in the 1830s, so its Jews won't be able to be deported to Siberia (or anywhere else in Russia, for that matter!).

 

[raharris1973]

I'd venture to say both the ones closest to the western border particularly the former Congress Polish western border would have equally high priority as the most easterly settlements.
I reason that the motivating factor in doing an interior expulsion, rather than an exterior expulsion, or a massacre, would be to still reap the fruits of the subject's labours in developing the wilderness, and repossessing their developed territories for one's own nationals in one stroke. Given that reasoning, the most easterly settlements would make the most logistical sense, for those, as you say involve the least distances travelled both for your subject frontiersmen, and your settlers re-occupying the vacated land.

But, I would think one has to consider why in such case would the urgency to do it *now*, and why hadn't it been done before, and why it could not be done later, or over a longer timeframe. I would venture to say the economic benefits are likely very backloaded, and thus not very attractive to a state insecure in its own power as Russia was vis-a-vis the other Great Powers of the time, Russia was never hegemon, but always playing catch-up, thus could little afford such a move. So I posit what would really trigger the "Tsar's Government" wanting to "make things better" for the Gentile peasants would be to keep the border regions pacified.

In light of the Polish Rebellion in 1830 that saw it's autonomy revoked which would seem to place Poles outside the benefactors of government schemes, I think the government would continue by its guiding principle of Orthodoxy, Autocracy, and Nationality, by principally benefiting its orthodox subjects, Russian one's in particular. Settling Russians on the border, ala Polish border strip or Israel's Jordan Valley settlements, would have allowed the government to have a freer hand in the evacuation, and expropriation of the Jewish settlements without international interference, and secures the integrity of the border with ethnic ties, preventing their wholesale breakaway.

So would the "sweep" work its way through the far western border settlements and the eastern Pale settlements, working its way gradually to the demographically dense center of the Pale in Grodno Governorate?

As mainly non-farmers, Jews won't be vacating large amounts land, mainly residences and shops. It will make land plots and town and village homes available for Orthodox Russians, but not enough to accomodate vast numbers of peasants.

 

[WolfBear]

So would the "sweep" work its way through the far western border settlements and the eastern Pale settlements, working its way gradually to the demographically dense center of the Pale in Grodno Governorate?


As mainly non-farmers, Jews won't be vacating large amounts land, mainly residences and shops. It will make land plots and town and village homes available for Orthodox Russians, but not enough to accomodate vast numbers of peasants.

You could see a simple west-east migration of Jews, with the eastern Pale Jews being deported last to Siberia.

This would serve two purposes, then: To accelerate the urbanization of Russian peasants (though illiteracy would be a huge problem that would need to be rapidly dealt with) while at the same time clearing out the Russian borderlands of their Jewish populations. In theory, Russian peasants who will move to the vacated Jewish lands could immediately become urban dwellers, but then Russia is actually going to need to build factories for them and possibly make them literate in order to enhance their human capital, both of which could take a while. So, you could see some depopulation in these territories persist for decades.

 

[Scottty]

Of interest to this discussion... a later Tsar did have such an idea. More or less.

Jewish Autonomous Oblast - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[raharris1973]

A few more ideas on this:

1. The beginning of this forced migration process to the wild and unknown east could spur alot of Jewish self-deportation across the Russian Empire's borders from Lithuania, Bessarabia, Ukraine and Congress Poland, thus boosting substantially the Jewish populations of Prussia, the free City of Krakow, Austrian Galicia, Bukovina, and the Ottoman vassal of Moldavia, Wallachia, and the Dobruja section of Rumelia. This was an era largely of passport-free travel, and weak border controls, so substantial evasions of the regime dragnet along the border, numbering in the tens of thousands at least, are pretty likely.
Those cross-border movements are likely to do two things. One the one-hand, generate bad publicity for the Tsarist government across the rest of Europe. On the other, increase local anti-semitism in Prussia, Austria, Krakow and the Danubian principalities.

2. The sum total of Jewish migrations to Siberia are going to significantly effect the ethnoreligious composition of Siberia, given the relatively low populations east of the Urals. It will tilt the balance *away* from Orthodoxy, Autocracy, and Nationality in those regions, and that should be obvious to regime leaders including Nicholas. They have to be willing to accept this trade-off. We have to assume that they regard the lands east of the Urals as the least harmful place for the Jews to be, within the empire, and they regard the Jewish presence along the western border in Europe, and the Black Sea and Baltic Sea coasts (basically where the Pale was) to be the most risky location to have Jewish populations from a national security and cultural integrity standpoint.

There's an argument for this case, because Russia's plausible enemies, Sweden, Prussia, Austria, the Ottomans, France, and Britain, would all approach primarily from the west, northwest, southwest sides in the 1830s rather than from the quiet Pacific. So Nicholas I may just judge that Russification is a greater priority on the empire's European and western "front-line"

Nevertheless - might the Tsarist regime want to ban Jewish settlement on the Pacific coast itself? Yankee and probably European traders operated there and did business with both natives and Russians. Granted, it would be really worthless as an invasion route prior to 1860 and the acquisition of primorye krai, because there were few ports, and they were blocked by ice for most of the year.

Another Trans-Ural area the Tsar might regard as sensitive and potentially off-limits for Jewish settlement could be the borders with the Kazakh horde and later with the surviving Khanates of Bukhara and Khiva, after the Kazakhs are taken over, plus the Caspian Sea coast, to avoid the risk of any Jewish-Muslim collusion.

After the Acquisition of outer Manchuria including Vladivostok/primorye/maritime province in 1860, large Jewish populations are now near a much more sensitive geopolitical frontier of the Russian empire, with more potential for development.

3. Presuming the policy is carried out through Nicolas's lifetime, and not reversed, there are interesting effects through the second half of the 19th century, and into the 20th century:

- Russian Empire Jewry in Siberia are far, far from Russia's port cities, and its people are much less conveniently placed to participate in large scale migrations to urban Western Europe, the Americas, or Zionist migrations.
- Russians settled in communities throughout the western provinces and governorates of the Russian Empire, though a privileged class of sorts, are positioned conveniently along the same migration routes and ports as their Polish, Lithuanian, and Ukrainian neighbors, and many more of these Orthodox Russians than OTL will end up taking advantage of opportunities to migrate to the west and get a chain migration of some scale going in that direction.

-Austria, Germany, and the Balkans will still provide decent pool of Jewish population for migration to points in the further urban west and Americas, and for eventual Zionist movements. With anticipated spill-over from the Russian border from the 1830s, and anticipated increased anti-semitism in Central Europe soon after, I actually expect many tens and hundreds of thousands more Jews to migrate to the Americas, London and Paris from Prussia, Austria, Krakow, and the Danubian principalities decades earlier than their family lineages may have in OTL. Some of these may make migrations to Ottoman Palestine, with or without a political agenda. Ethnic Poles, especially from Posen, West Prussia, Galicia, and Ruthenians, and Romanians, will probably also emigrate to the Americas in larger numbers earlier than OTL, more contemporaneous with the predominantly German-Irish waves than the later Italian-Russian empire waves like OTL.

As we get to the turn of the 20th century, I expect German and Western European and American Jews to mainly focused on assimilation, but Jews of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Balkan will provide such manpower that any Zionist movement has.

Finally, on the economics of survival in the more populous Siberia:

Apart from the farming necessary to sustain ~1 million people I guess logging, trapping, and supplying the trappers I imagine, much of the population will be put to work as the early penal settlers were, building the most basic infrastructure necessary to populate the area, clearing forests, building roads, dredging streams.

These will be the work activities, a huge change in lifestyle for Jewish settlers, especially as so many Jewish predominant professions become irrelevant on the frontier. This population will have to be armed, against wild animals, for protection and game hunting if nothing else. The increased deforestation, trapping, and trapper support will all exhaust the supplies of fur-bearing animals sooner than OTL and drive more to extinction, also driving indigenous peoples to economic and social ruin. Clearing forest will create some cropland, but may have some bad greenhouse effects. More and more the economy of the region will have to turn towards mining, and hopefully they can figure out ways to do farming of fur-bearing animals before they go extinct.

 

[WolfBear]

A few more ideas on this:

1. The beginning of this forced migration process to the wild and unknown east could spur alot of Jewish self-deportation across the Russian Empire's borders from Lithuania, Bessarabia, Ukraine and Congress Poland, thus boosting substantially the Jewish populations of Prussia, the free City of Krakow, Austrian Galicia, Bukovina, and the Ottoman vassal of Moldavia, Wallachia, and the Dobruja section of Rumelia. This was an era largely of passport-free travel, and weak border controls, so substantial evasions of the regime dragnet along the border, numbering in the tens of thousands at least, are pretty likely.
Those cross-border movements are likely to do two things. One the one-hand, generate bad publicity for the Tsarist government across the rest of Europe. On the other, increase local anti-semitism in Prussia, Austria, Krakow and the Danubian principalities.

2. The sum total of Jewish migrations to Siberia are going to significantly effect the ethnoreligious composition of Siberia, given the relatively low populations east of the Urals. It will tilt the balance *away* from Orthodoxy, Autocracy, and Nationality in those regions, and that should be obvious to regime leaders including Nicholas. They have to be willing to accept this trade-off. We have to assume that they regard the lands east of the Urals as the least harmful place for the Jews to be, within the empire, and they regard the Jewish presence along the western border in Europe, and the Black Sea and Baltic Sea coasts (basically where the Pale was) to be the most risky location to have Jewish populations from a national security and cultural integrity standpoint.

There's an argument for this case, because Russia's plausible enemies, Sweden, Prussia, Austria, the Ottomans, France, and Britain, would all approach primarily from the west, northwest, southwest sides in the 1830s rather than from the quiet Pacific. So Nicholas I may just judge that Russification is a greater priority on the empire's European and western "front-line"

Everything here makes sense so far.

Nevertheless - might the Tsarist regime want to ban Jewish settlement on the Pacific coast itself? Yankee and probably European traders operated there and did business with both natives and Russians. Granted, it would be really worthless as an invasion route prior to 1860 and the acquisition of primorye krai, because there were few ports, and they were blocked by ice for most of the year.

Another Trans-Ural area the Tsar might regard as sensitive and potentially off-limits for Jewish settlement could be the borders with the Kazakh horde and later with the surviving Khanates of Bukhara and Khiva, after the Kazakhs are taken over, plus the Caspian Sea coast, to avoid the risk of any Jewish-Muslim collusion.

After the Acquisition of outer Manchuria including Vladivostok/primorye/maritime province in 1860, large Jewish populations are now near a much more sensitive geopolitical frontier of the Russian empire, with more potential for development.

Yep, makes sense.

3. Presuming the policy is carried out through Nicolas's lifetime, and not reversed, there are interesting effects through the second half of the 19th century, and into the 20th century:

- Russian Empire Jewry in Siberia are far, far from Russia's port cities, and its people are much less conveniently placed to participate in large scale migrations to urban Western Europe, the Americas, or Zionist migrations.
- Russians settled in communities throughout the western provinces and governorates of the Russian Empire, though a privileged class of sorts, are positioned conveniently along the same migration routes and ports as their Polish, Lithuanian, and Ukrainian neighbors, and many more of these Orthodox Russians than OTL will end up taking advantage of opportunities to migrate to the west and get a chain migration of some scale going in that direction.

Makes sense. That said, though, I would still expect a lot of Siberian Russian Jews to emigrate eventually, but the logistics of it is going to be harder, in terms of actually getting access to railroads and then using these railroads to travel to coastal cities such as St. Petersburg, Riga, or Odessa and then from there to Western Europe or the Americas or wherever. So, it will likely be a slower process than it was in real life. But as you said, a lot of Russian Jews are going to emigrate during the deportation process itself.

-Austria, Germany, and the Balkans will still provide decent pool of Jewish population for migration to points in the further urban west and Americas, and for eventual Zionist movements. With anticipated spill-over from the Russian border from the 1830s, and anticipated increased anti-semitism in Central Europe soon after, I actually expect many tens and hundreds of thousands more Jews to migrate to the Americas, London and Paris from Prussia, Austria, Krakow, and the Danubian principalities decades earlier than their family lineages may have in OTL. Some of these may make migrations to Ottoman Palestine, with or without a political agenda. Ethnic Poles, especially from Posen, West Prussia, Galicia, and Ruthenians, and Romanians, will probably also emigrate to the Americas in larger numbers earlier than OTL, more contemporaneous with the predominantly German-Irish waves than the later Italian-Russian empire waves like OTL.

As we get to the turn of the 20th century, I expect German and Western European and American Jews to mainly focused on assimilation, but Jews of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Balkan will provide such manpower that any Zionist movement has.

Makes sense. Though FWIW I would also expect Zionism to have some popularity among Russian Jews as well.

Finally, on the economics of survival in the more populous Siberia:



These will be the work activities, a huge change in lifestyle for Jewish settlers, especially as so many Jewish predominant professions become irrelevant on the frontier. This population will have to be armed, against wild animals, for protection and game hunting if nothing else. The increased deforestation, trapping, and trapper support will all exhaust the supplies of fur-bearing animals sooner than OTL and drive more to extinction, also driving indigenous peoples to economic and social ruin. Clearing forest will create some cropland, but may have some bad greenhouse effects. More and more the economy of the region will have to turn towards mining, and hopefully they can figure out ways to do farming of fur-bearing animals before they go extinct.

Makes sense. That said, though, Siberia's population was going to explode either way since if a lot of eastern Slavs were eventually going to settle there regardless of whether a lot of Jews likewise did this. This is why the Jewish presence in Siberia likely won't be a huge demographic issue in the long(er)-run--eventually, the Jews there will be overwhelmed by eastern Slavs, similar to what happened with the Jews in the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in real life:

Jewish Autonomous Oblast - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Those are the Soviet census years and the Jewish percentage of the total population in the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, for the record.

 

[WolfBear]

FWIW, I think that it would be most crucial of all to evacuate the Jews who lived in the territories that the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth still controlled between 1793 and 1795 en masse to Siberia:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Rzeczpospolita_Rozbiory_2.png

The territories to the west of it (the PLC territories that Russia annexed in 1772 and 1793) had much more Holocaust survivors than the territories that the PLC still kept between 1793 and 1795, for which virtually the entire Jewish population that has not already emigrated was murdered in the Holocaust. The Jews further to the west and south of these territories would largely be under Prussian and Austrian rule in 1835 and thus not be eligible for a forced Russian relocation to Siberia.

Of course, with a PoD in 1835, the Holocaust itself might very well be completely butterflied away, and so will Adolf Hitler's entire existence, but in the event that some comparable nut will ever seize power in Germany, well, at least the Jews of the 1793-1795 PLC territories are going to be much more secure than they were in real life, living the good life in Siberia. (Well, OK, maybe not quite the good life, but still, ... )

 

[raharris1973]

The OP is similar to, but goes in a different direction than this scenario of mine from 17+ years ago:

Oy, it's so crowded, or Pale of Settlement shrunk (it's like a sauna in here)

Tsar Nicholas I, around 1825, decides to constrict the Pale of Settlement, the region of the Russian Empire where Jews are allowed to reside. [Russian history what-ifs are easy, because with such
autocratic government, the leader can just try something nutty because he feels like it, more than in a democracy]
Under his decree, the Ukraine and Byelorussia are removed from the Pale, and Jews in the Russian Empire can basically only live in Congres Poland and Lithiuania. This removes over half the land area.
His rationale [the reactionary rat bastard he is] is twofold- "the
Jewish presence may be acceptable for the Papist heretics, but is an abomination in the lands where the people belong to the true Orthodox Church. Ivan the Terrible thought so when he expelled the Jews from Muscovy, and what's good enough for Ivan, is good enough for me." Additionally, in its administrative policy, the Russians attempted to retreat Ukraine and Byelorussia the same as other parts of Russia, without special autonomy [like Poland before 1830] or special
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repression, like Poland after 1830, or Chechnya, or Finland. The one glaring administrative difference between Ukraine-Byelorussia and Russia's Muscovite core is that the Pale of Settlement includes the western territories. Nucholas does away with what he judges to have been an administrative mistake.
Consequences (my rst vague impressions):
1. Polish ghettos get more crowded after the decree. There's heightened Polish-Jewish-Lithuanian tensions, and unrest. However, its uncoordinated unrest, which assists in divide and rule stratgies.
2. The concentration of the Jews in the western fringe of the empire encourages many people to leave the empire entirely. Polish and
Jewish outmigration ows in many directions, some to the Ottoman and Austrian empires, but mostly to points west: Prussia and the German states, especially the Rhineland, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Paris, Brussels, London Stockholm. This gets started in a signicant way in
the second half of the 1830s. Europe was developing economically at this time, and border controls weren't terribly tight.
3. Consequences, the newcomers bring with them the Orthodox Judaism that German Jews were starting to abandon at this time. Some urbane folk in the west initially welcome these people, but the novelty wears
off after awhile and anti-semitism increases, although not
necessarilly to murderous proportions in most cases.
4. Some Jewish and Polish newcmers participate in the political
thinking of the time by the late 1840s. There's a "Young Israel"
student movement much like the Young Italy, Young Germany and Young
student movement much like the Young Italy, Young Germany and Young
Poland movements that emerged at that time. It can't decide if its a cultural movement or a Zionist movement in the years leading up to 1848. Many Jewish students also at least attempt to join the national movements of the states where they live.
The German Confederation may do something to dene ethnic German-ness, although this would be awkward for Austria.
5. The countries where these migrants move too,the UK, Sweden, Denmark, the Germanies, the Netherlands, were also the countries that were exporting lots of people to the United States around this time.
In France, this leads to a bit more of a 'Rainbow France' situation,
as France was not a net exporter if emigrants. Bottom-line, alot more Jews and Polish Catholics participate in the 1840s thru 1880s waves of emigration to the US.
6. In the US, Old Testament loving Protestants have an initially
favorable attidue towards Jewish newcomers. However, the novelty soon wears off, and the added non-Protestant element of the 1840s and 1850s immigration may strengthen nativist movements. Yankees, Germans, Jews, Poles, Irish and blacks [always in last place] are competitors
in urban areas, with shifting political allegiances depending on circumstance.
7. Jews might be more pro-Abolitionist than other immigrant groups at the time, but the commitment to social justice for other people might not be that strong a trait at this historical juncture, the migration would effect cultural evolution in unpredictable ways, as its coming
at the dawn of reform Judaism and only a generation and a half after the relaxation of West European ghettos..
8. Possibly, the Jews, as non-Christians, are as ill-received as the Chinese in the US [and other areas of white settlement], but I kinda doubt it.
9. By the 1860s, Jewish analogues of the Fenians may show up in the United States [the Maccabee clubs?]. Tales of Tsarist oppression by Jewish and Polish witnesses may worsen Russia's reputation in the US earlier [could this affect Alaska sale?]
10. There may be some attempt at agricultural settlement in the Plains states, but this is likely to be no more poular than similar attempts that were made later in OTL.
11. Somebody probably tries some durn fool expedition to take Palestine 'Operation Filibusterowitz'. Maybe Garibaldi or Lord Byron will give them some money or encouragement.
12. Back in Ukraine, some economic niches vacated by the Jews go unlled, and others are lled by Russians, Armenians, expatriate Greeks and Lebanese Christians. The overalll # of uniiversity
students in Russia may be smaller too, although Russia will still make some big cultural and economic achievements by the end of the century.



The original is here:

Oy, it's so crowded, or Pale of Settlement shrunk

Tsar Nicholas I, around 1825, decides to constrict the Pale of Settlement, the region of the Russian Empire where Jews are allowed to reside. [Russian history what-ifs are easy, because with such autocratic government, the leader can just try something nutty because he feels like it, more than...

www.alternatehistory.com

As you can see population density would be tight, just like the text above, we're talking pupik to tukhus over here.

Title inspired by the late eighties up to 1990 non-hit 'Oy its so Humid' by 'Two Live Jews', fronted by MC Moisha and E.Z. Irving:

 

[WolfBear]

The OP is similar to, but goes in a different direction than this scenario of mine from 17+ years ago:

Oy, it's so crowded, or Pale of Settlement shrunk (it's like a sauna in here)

Tsar Nicholas I, around 1825, decides to constrict the Pale of Settlement, the region of the Russian Empire where Jews are allowed to reside. [Russian history what-ifs are easy, because with such
autocratic government, the leader can just try something nutty because he feels like it, more than in a democracy]
Under his decree, the Ukraine and Byelorussia are removed from the Pale, and Jews in the Russian Empire can basically only live in Congres Poland and Lithiuania. This removes over half the land area.
His rationale [the reactionary rat bastard he is] is twofold- "the
Jewish presence may be acceptable for the Papist heretics, but is an abomination in the lands where the people belong to the true Orthodox Church. Ivan the Terrible thought so when he expelled the Jews from Muscovy, and what's good enough for Ivan, is good enough for me." Additionally, in its administrative policy, the Russians attempted to retreat Ukraine and Byelorussia the same as other parts of Russia, without special autonomy [like Poland before 1830] or special
Log in
Register 
#1
repression, like Poland after 1830, or Chechnya, or Finland. The one glaring administrative difference between Ukraine-Byelorussia and Russia's Muscovite core is that the Pale of Settlement includes the western territories. Nucholas does away with what he judges to have been an administrative mistake.
Consequences (my rst vague impressions):
1. Polish ghettos get more crowded after the decree. There's heightened Polish-Jewish-Lithuanian tensions, and unrest. However, its uncoordinated unrest, which assists in divide and rule stratgies.
2. The concentration of the Jews in the western fringe of the empire encourages many people to leave the empire entirely. Polish and
Jewish outmigration ows in many directions, some to the Ottoman and Austrian empires, but mostly to points west: Prussia and the German states, especially the Rhineland, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Paris, Brussels, London Stockholm. This gets started in a signicant way in
the second half of the 1830s. Europe was developing economically at this time, and border controls weren't terribly tight.
3. Consequences, the newcomers bring with them the Orthodox Judaism that German Jews were starting to abandon at this time. Some urbane folk in the west initially welcome these people, but the novelty wears
off after awhile and anti-semitism increases, although not
necessarilly to murderous proportions in most cases.
4. Some Jewish and Polish newcmers participate in the political
thinking of the time by the late 1840s. There's a "Young Israel"
student movement much like the Young Italy, Young Germany and Young
student movement much like the Young Italy, Young Germany and Young
Poland movements that emerged at that time. It can't decide if its a cultural movement or a Zionist movement in the years leading up to 1848. Many Jewish students also at least attempt to join the national movements of the states where they live.
The German Confederation may do something to dene ethnic German-ness, although this would be awkward for Austria.
5. The countries where these migrants move too,the UK, Sweden, Denmark, the Germanies, the Netherlands, were also the countries that were exporting lots of people to the United States around this time.
In France, this leads to a bit more of a 'Rainbow France' situation,
as France was not a net exporter if emigrants. Bottom-line, alot more Jews and Polish Catholics participate in the 1840s thru 1880s waves of emigration to the US.
6. In the US, Old Testament loving Protestants have an initially
favorable attidue towards Jewish newcomers. However, the novelty soon wears off, and the added non-Protestant element of the 1840s and 1850s immigration may strengthen nativist movements. Yankees, Germans, Jews, Poles, Irish and blacks [always in last place] are competitors
in urban areas, with shifting political allegiances depending on circumstance.
7. Jews might be more pro-Abolitionist than other immigrant groups at the time, but the commitment to social justice for other people might not be that strong a trait at this historical juncture, the migration would effect cultural evolution in unpredictable ways, as its coming
at the dawn of reform Judaism and only a generation and a half after the relaxation of West European ghettos..
8. Possibly, the Jews, as non-Christians, are as ill-received as the Chinese in the US [and other areas of white settlement], but I kinda doubt it.
9. By the 1860s, Jewish analogues of the Fenians may show up in the United States [the Maccabee clubs?]. Tales of Tsarist oppression by Jewish and Polish witnesses may worsen Russia's reputation in the US earlier [could this affect Alaska sale?]
10. There may be some attempt at agricultural settlement in the Plains states, but this is likely to be no more poular than similar attempts that were made later in OTL.
11. Somebody probably tries some durn fool expedition to take Palestine 'Operation Filibusterowitz'. Maybe Garibaldi or Lord Byron will give them some money or encouragement.
12. Back in Ukraine, some economic niches vacated by the Jews go unlled, and others are lled by Russians, Armenians, expatriate Greeks and Lebanese Christians. The overalll # of uniiversity
students in Russia may be smaller too, although Russia will still make some big cultural and economic achievements by the end of the century.



The original is here:

Oy, it's so crowded, or Pale of Settlement shrunk

Tsar Nicholas I, around 1825, decides to constrict the Pale of Settlement, the region of the Russian Empire where Jews are allowed to reside. [Russian history what-ifs are easy, because with such autocratic government, the leader can just try something nutty because he feels like it, more than...

www.alternatehistory.com

As you can see population density would be tight, just like the text above, we're talking pupik to tukhus over here.

Title inspired by the late eighties up to 1990 non-hit 'Oy its so Humid' by 'Two Live Jews', fronted by MC Moisha and E.Z. Irving:

Rob, I actually saw that post of yours, which is what helped inspire me to make my own post here.

If Ukraine and Belarus will be removed from the Pale of Settlement, and an alt-Hitler-style figure still eventually comes to power in Germany in this TL and takes over most of Europe, then Russian Jews, being much more concentrated in Poland, are going to be much more screwed over than they were in real life.

 

[raharris1973]

Rob, I actually saw that post of yours, which is what helped inspire me to make my own post here.

If Ukraine and Belarus will be removed from the Pale of Settlement, and an alt-Hitler-style figure still eventually comes to power in Germany in this TL and takes over most of Europe, then Russian Jews, being much more concentrated in Poland, are going to be much more screwed over than they were in real life.

Those that are left there, supposing all butterflies are massacred, and you have the law of conservation of all Nazis and Holocausts in effect, and supposing chain-migration hasn't largely removed these people from Central Europe to overseas.

 

[WolfBear]

Those that are left there, supposing all butterflies are massacred, and you have the law of conservation of all Nazis and Holocausts in effect, and supposing chain-migration hasn't largely removed these people from Central Europe to overseas.

Well, just how many more of them would have been removed overseas relative to real life? Because in real life, something like 1/3 of all Russian Jewry had already emigrated by 1914.