On war

[Zachowon]

Dont get me wrong I tend to agree that war will cause it far more often. It's just that the statement you made was an absolute one. Consider also that there are cases where women who are brutally raped have it. Combat isnt the only way to trigger it.

I know it isn't. My ex got it now and then form a troubled past. My point though is War generally has more cases come from it. It can also desensatise it. Something that can lead to killers. Again not something only to war, but you will find more veterans then anyone else who are basically able to pull a trigger on someone after so many tours, and it not be a moral choice.

 

[Arch Dornan]

Whether war is or is not the worst thing which can happen / worst thing which humans can cause. I believe it is not, Zachowon believes it is.

It's subjective. You know NIMBY? Wars generally is the worst thing when it comes to you.

Otherwise it's other things that will be the worse thing.

 

[Aldarion]

I think we have somewhat of a disconnect. Wars helped fuel these things.

And these things helped fuel wars, and caused much more devastation than even the wars they did cause or the wars that caused them. Which would suggest that our dichtonomy is actually a false one. Also, wars also helped stop said things too.

I mean, to get their way that went through wars and the like. Without wars Communism falls. Look at the USSR. They had a war, World War 2, and it boosted their economy and managed to have many wars in various countries, because it helped supply them constant money, but when peace started happening and a changing economy it crashed. China is also an example.

Agreed. But even despite that, most of casualties of Communism were not directly caused by war. And threat of war - the arms race instigated by Ronald Reagan - was one of things which helped the collapse of Communism, while Nazism was removed through outright war.

I should point out that in order for such things to happen, War has been the cause of such things. There is also a difference between USSR and CHina vs third world countries in Africa which have been at war Longer then any country in Europe has since the middle ages. Somalaians would gladly have a dictator if it meant no war.

Dictator does not necessarily mean a genocidal maniac, so if the choice is between constant war and your run-of-the-mill dictator, of course latter is preferable.

And the plague killed more people then a lot of wars at the time, yet Wars are still and will always be worse, especially nowadays.

How are wars worse than plague? Other than the fact that war can actually help spread the plague - but so did trade.

And the CCP rise to power happened how? There is a cause and effect if such things. It all starts with War. Without war the Communists in Russia and China would have never risen. Without war Nukes would have never been made.

War can be a cause or a consequence. Which again leads to the conclusion that contrasting war deaths vs peacetime deaths is false - but also conclusion that war is inherently evil is false, as in many cases war is caused by things which are evil whether they cause war or not, and may cause more damage if left alone than if not.

Yes, war brought communists to power, but do you really think that e.g. doing away with nation-states to prevent further wars would be a good thing? Because if that happens, and whole world becomes one giant superstate, then any government which comes to power will affect the entire world - which means that e.g. Communist genocides will have affected the entire world. Of course, the centralizing shift we are experiencing today all across the board was also caused by the war, but OTOH any government has tendency towards accumulation and centralization of power, which means that if world is united to prevent further wars, we will experience totalitarianism and mass murder anyway.

When the fighting was not right around them. Look at the US most in the states weren't having to fear about dying because a foreign man was next to their house. The British were confident in their military.

Chinese and koreans were getting killed to make sure fear would prevent any one from fighting back. Ask any country where War crimes were committed against their people if War is not worse? Numbers don't mean something is worse btw. What makes war worse is the after affects. People don't have PTSD from Plagues, at least not the kind that has them end up killing loved ones when they are woken up in the middle of the night. Authoritarian governments don't cause people to have PTSD. nK defectors aren't having nightmares or stopping when they see something from their government.

The after effect is greater form a War then from anything else.

Actually, they do.

 

[ShieldWife]

War is certainly bad, really really and terrible. It should be avoided when ever possible, which is usually. Are there some rare cases where having a war is better than the alternative? Yes, when the alternative is really bad.

If another country invades yours, is it better to let them take over to avoid war or at that point has the war always started and now the defenders are justified in fighting back? I would certainly oppose initiating a war in almost every case, but fighting back seems justified. Starting a civil war or revolution to throw off an oppressive regime could be justified too.

 

[JagerIV]

It does sound very wierd to here this argument from you @Zachowon , because your making something of an opposite arguement to what you were making in the US invasion thread, where you seemed to be of the opinion that the US surrendering was worse, and people would see it as worse, than getting peace through surrender.

Now though, you seem to be arguing that there is nothing worse than war. It seems very weird to here such a hard line pacifistic stance from you. Am I missing something in your argument?

 

[Zachowon]

It does sound very wierd to here this argument from you @Zachowon , because your making something of an opposite arguement to what you were making in the US invasion thread, where you seemed to be of the opinion that the US surrendering was worse, and people would see it as worse, than getting peace through surrender.

Now though, you seem to be arguing that there is nothing worse than war. It seems very weird to here such a hard line pacifistic stance from you. Am I missing something in your argument?

I am a weird guy Jager. I am a weird guy. I do not want any country to have war break out in it as it would make things worse for them for a good long while. The US thread though goes along with this, as if countries are able to resist their invaders themselves they wont make it easy, and most likely make the outcome of the war worse should they lose.

 

[ATP]

My point is that your worldview is based on wrong premise: that mass slaughter and suffering only happen during the war, and/or cannot be prevented by the war. If you do not want to discuss it any more, fine, but I will ask you to think about what I said: that war can be used to prevent suffering worse than itself. And to reiterate: vast majority of causalties of authoritharian regimes were not a consequence of war. For Soviet regime, only about a quarter of those killed were due to war.

I think,less.And many soldiers died becouse soviet used wave tactic,and their generals simply keep attacking till there were nobody to attack anymore,then they go for new cannonfodder.

Poland making peace with soviets in 1921 betrayed not only our allies,but millions of poles living there.
Result -

1.those who fought died fighting/last partisants fought till 1938/ or were send to Gulag.
2.Those who belived in NEP go to Gulags or mass graves later.
3.Those who defended their churches go to gulags or get killed.
4.Those who defended their lands go to gulags or died.
5.In the end,Stalin in 1937 started polish operation - most of adult polish males were killed as polish agents,including those who betrayed and become soviet agents.

So,as everybody could see,no matter what you did ib soviet state,you ended in prison or mass grave.
I am coward,but precisely becouse of that i would fight - it is nicer to die from bullet then torturers.