If the US never acquires the Philippines in 1898 and a big giant butterfly net prevents any major changes to our TL over the next 43 years, ...

WolfBear

Well-known member
If the US never acquires the Philippines in 1898 and a big giant butterfly net prevents any major changes to our TL over the next 43 years, does the US still ever enter World War II, let alone enter World War II on schedule?

Any thoughts on this? @stevep @History Learner @Zyobot @Skallagrim @raharris1973

FWIW, the US would still impose sanctions on Japan for its invasion and occupation of French Indochina in 1941 in this TL, but would that in itself actually be enough to get Japan to declare war on the US if the US wasn't already controlling the Philippines?
 
I'm sorry; I don't buy the "big giant butterfly net". The problem is that the outcome of the Spanish-American War can't just be divorced from reality. It had a major impact on America's view of itself and its role in the world. Altering the outcome of the war can't just have no effects due to handwavium. It creates logical contradictions that I don't think you can resolve.

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Certainly, no Philippines also means no Guam. If the Americans are not going to grab up the former, they're not going to go to the trouble of annexing the latter, either. These alterations change the American approach to the Pacific. We must keep in mind that even after the attack on Pearl Harbor, FDR went out of his way to stress how American Hawaii was. He had to do that, because public opinion polls had shown that a lrge number of Americans didn't consider any of the Pacific holdings (including Hawaii!) to be "really American".

If Hawaii is America's lonely outpost in the Pacific, this feeling of it being an isolated forward position will be further strengthened. I'd wager that the absence of the Philippines and Guam will entail that after World War I (assuming for the moment this occurs as we know it), the USA will not want to take responsibility for the Northern Mariana Islands and (OTL) American Samoa.

This changes the USA's Pacific strategy yet further (to the tune of 'the barely being a Pacific strategy'). I really doubt that your assumption of the USA still imposing sanctions on Japan for its invasion and occupation of French Indochina in 1941 actually holds up. I'd tend towards the opposite conclusion: that this ATL USA would refrain from such sanctions, and consider it a big load of "not my business".

This would make any war between the USA and Japan pretty improbable.

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What's more, though, I also think that the whole premise of "the USA doesn't annex the Philippines (but does annex the other OTL gains from the Spanish-American War)" is just very implausible. When we look at what the American government actually did, and how it kept its own negotiators in the dark about the plans to actually annex the Philippines, this isn't something you can just wave away.

I believe that for the annexation of the Philippines to be most plausibly avoided, you'd have to keep the imperialist faction out of power (or somehow kick them out of power right after the war.) This would necessitate William Jennings Bryan winning in 1896 (preferably) or 1900 (as a back-up option).

That scenario, to be clear, would hav far more wide-spread ramifications. Even if a war against Spain still gets fought (which isn't improbable at all), there will be no annexations afterwards. No Philippines, no Guam, no Puerto Rico, no foothold in Cuba. No later interest in getting a hold on the Northern Mariana Islands and on (OTL) American Samoa, either.

And if we go with the 1896 POD... no annexation of Hawaii, either. (Which also means no Palmyra Atoll, for whatever that's worth).

Which all adds up to: no war between the USA and Japan. It's not just improbable in this scenario, it's vanishingly unlikely. But beyond that, this ATL scenario completely alters the American perception of itself. In the resulting ATL, the USA will almost certainly refrain from getting involved in any European conflicts.
 
I'm sorry; I don't buy the "big giant butterfly net". The problem is that the outcome of the Spanish-American War can't just be divorced from reality. It had a major impact on America's view of itself and its role in the world. Altering the outcome of the war can't just have no effects due to handwavium. It creates logical contradictions that I don't think you can resolve.

------

Certainly, no Philippines also means no Guam. If the Americans are not going to grab up the former, they're not going to go to the trouble of annexing the latter, either. These alterations change the American approach to the Pacific. We must keep in mind that even after the attack on Pearl Harbor, FDR went out of his way to stress how American Hawaii was. He had to do that, because public opinion polls had shown that a lrge number of Americans didn't consider any of the Pacific holdings (including Hawaii!) to be "really American".

If Hawaii is America's lonely outpost in the Pacific, this feeling of it being an isolated forward position will be further strengthened. I'd wager that the absence of the Philippines and Guam will entail that after World War I (assuming for the moment this occurs as we know it), the USA will not want to take responsibility for the Northern Mariana Islands and (OTL) American Samoa.

This changes the USA's Pacific strategy yet further (to the tune of 'the barely being a Pacific strategy'). I really doubt that your assumption of the USA still imposing sanctions on Japan for its invasion and occupation of French Indochina in 1941 actually holds up. I'd tend towards the opposite conclusion: that this ATL USA would refrain from such sanctions, and consider it a big load of "not my business".

This would make any war between the USA and Japan pretty improbable.

------

What's more, though, I also think that the whole premise of "the USA doesn't annex the Philippines (but does annex the other OTL gains from the Spanish-American War)" is just very implausible. When we look at what the American government actually did, and how it kept its own negotiators in the dark about the plans to actually annex the Philippines, this isn't something you can just wave away.

I believe that for the annexation of the Philippines to be most plausibly avoided, you'd have to keep the imperialist faction out of power (or somehow kick them out of power right after the war.) This would necessitate William Jennings Bryan winning in 1896 (preferably) or 1900 (as a back-up option).

That scenario, to be clear, would hav far more wide-spread ramifications. Even if a war against Spain still gets fought (which isn't improbable at all), there will be no annexations afterwards. No Philippines, no Guam, no Puerto Rico, no foothold in Cuba. No later interest in getting a hold on the Northern Mariana Islands and on (OTL) American Samoa, either.

And if we go with the 1896 POD... no annexation of Hawaii, either. (Which also means no Palmyra Atoll, for whatever that's worth).

Which all adds up to: no war between the USA and Japan. It's not just improbable in this scenario, it's vanishingly unlikely. But beyond that, this ATL scenario completely alters the American perception of itself. In the resulting ATL, the USA will almost certainly refrain from getting involved in any European conflicts.

Excellent analysis! That said, though, a question:

What about having Garfield live in 1881, win reelection in 1884, have Cleveland win in 1888, have some Republican win in 1892, and then have some Bourbon Democrat win in 1896? Would that work for this?

Also, was WJ Bryan against Hawaii annexation as well? If so, if he wins in 1896, wouldn't that simply delay Hawaii annexation rather than outright prevent it?

As for the US not getting involved in any European conflicts in this TL, does that include WWI as well? Even after USW is resumed in early 1917 or whenever?
 
What about having Garfield live in 1881, win reelection in 1884, have Cleveland win in 1888, have some Republican win in 1892, and then have some Bourbon Democrat win in 1896? Would that work for this?
Would work perfectly.

Also, was WJ Bryan against Hawaii annexation as well? If so, if he wins in 1896, wouldn't that simply delay Hawaii annexation rather than outright prevent it?
Bryan was dead-set against imperialism. I'm pretty sure he'd oppose all annexations.

I also think that the aftermath of the Spanish-American War is where the USA first consciously decided that deliberate imperialism (as opposed to "manifest destiny", which was perceived as a more natural, non-deliberate process) might actually be an interesting prospect. If you avoid this "window", I think you've probably steered the USA onto another path. So not just a delay, but a permanent avoidance of the imperialist impulse.


As for the US not getting involved in any European conflicts in this TL, does that include WWI as well? Even after USW is resumed in early 1917 or whenever?
Even in OTL, where the imperialist window ended up getting kicked open with a lot of vigour, it took a lot to wrangle the USA into the war. If imperialism has been refused and rejected, I don't see the USA getting into any European Wars.
 
Would work perfectly.


Bryan was dead-set against imperialism. I'm pretty sure he'd oppose all annexations.

I also think that the aftermath of the Spanish-American War is where the USA first consciously decided that deliberate imperialism (as opposed to "manifest destiny", which was perceived as a more natural, non-deliberate process) might actually be an interesting prospect. If you avoid this "window", I think you've probably steered the USA onto another path. So not just a delay, but a permanent avoidance of the imperialist impulse.



Even in OTL, where the imperialist window ended up getting kicked open with a lot of vigour, it took a lot to wrangle the USA into the war. If imperialism has been refused and rejected, I don't see the USA getting into any European Wars.

-Bryan supported Puerto Rican annexation, no?

-And didn't the US want to annex Hawaii under Benjamin Harrison (several years before the Span-Am War) but simply ran out of time to do this before Grover Cleveland's second inauguration?
 
Bryan was dead-set against imperialism. I'm pretty sure he'd oppose all annexations.

By the way, couldn't even a US President William Jennings Bryan have supported US basing rights in the Philippines even if the Philippines would have become independent? As in, have US military bases in the independent Philippines in order to protect the Philippines from predatory European and Japanese colonialists and imperialists? If so, wouldn't the same issue still eventually come up for Japan since Japan would still need to conquer the Philippines in order to get to the Dutch East Indies, and the US would still have a defense commitment even to an independent Philippines, no?
 

(2) The notion that Bryan would have objected to the Spanish-American War
as "imperialism" is a confusion between the war itself and one of its OTL
results--the acquisition of the Philippines. Many people (in the
Bryanite silver camp and elsewhere) favored the former--regarding it as a
just war for the liberation of Cuba--and opposed the latter. Bryan would
have favored an independent Philippine republic--though of course he could
support US naval bases there
(and in Cuba). As Bryan's career as
Secretary of State after 1913 showed, his opposition to a formal colonial
empire for the US didn't necessarily mean that he opposed all US
intervention in places like the Caribbean.
 

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