Alternate History challenge- CSA wins independence, allies with Germany or Russia in a 20th century war against US-UK alliance

raharris1973

Well-known member
That’s the challenge, in two steps. Have the Confederates win and keep their independence. But the twist beyond that, is that contrary to more common published AH fictional works and posted scenarios, have the USA instead of the CSA instead of the UK, and have the CSA be allied with the UK’s big, bad enemy, like Germany or Russia, in a later war or wars.
 
That’s the challenge, in two steps. Have the Confederates win and keep their independence. But the twist beyond that, is that contrary to more common published AH fictional works and posted scenarios, have the USA instead of the CSA instead of the UK, and have the CSA be allied with the UK’s big, bad enemy, like Germany or Russia, in a later war or wars.

Wall I can see a number of options but how about.
a) A Trent affair type incident occurs but the delegates are on a French flagged ship. For whatever reason this ends in war between France and the union. The south gains independence and has some fairly close relations with France while a defeated union has a period of internal instability before settling down but looks towards Britain as a potential counter.

b) The Franco-Prussian war goes as OTL. Fall of the French empire could see the south seek to gain territory from Mexico but also the new republic is hostile to the south's continuation of slavery. This prompts the south to also look for friends, initially with limited success as only Britain and France have significant power projection and influence beyond Europe.

c) This changes with Wilhelm II coming to power in Germany and gradually increasing hostility towards Britain. Also some common links are seen between the aristocratic junkers and the planters who are still very influential in the south. Coupled with Wilhelm also fouling up relations with Russia as OTL so you gradually get the formation of the OTL triple entente to counter German actions. - Could of course have some different set ups and its doubtful things would happen exactly as OTL, for instance a great war is unlikely to be triggered by the assassination of FF with a POD in ~1861 but doing this for simplicity.

As such some war triggered ~1910 with a German-Austrian alliance facing a Franco-Russia-British one, with the CSA having close links with Germany - albeit probably not a definite alliance and similarly the US having close trading links with Britain and possibly having concerns about a CSA that has imported a lot of weapons and industrial items from Germany prior to the war starting.

Then all it needs is some issue that prompts a clash between the CSA and either the US or Britain/allies which combines the two conflicts. Possibly the south has some agreement where they supply basing to German U boats or something like that?
 
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The second part is IMO childishly easy.
Besides CSA being independent everything rolls along as in OTL until 1914. The USA President, same as OTL Wilson, bends over to British and French rape of Neutrals' rights. The CSA, being denied its right to sell cotton and peanuts to the Central Powers, is enraged and comes out swinging at the Thieving Yanks, Perfidious Brits and Smelly Onion Eaters.
 
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The second part is IMO childishly easy.
Besides CSA being independent everything rolls along as in OTL until 1914. The USA President, same as OTL Wilson, bends over to British and French rape of Neutrals' rights. The CSA, being denied its right to sell cotton and peanuts to the Central Powers, is enraged and comes out swinging at the Thieving Yanks, Perfidious Brits and Smelly Onion Eaters.

IOTL during World War I the South had a pretty serious spurt of Anti-British sentiment over the blockade preventing trade with Germany, which had emerged as a serious market for Southern cotton among other products. London had to agree to stabilize the price to help mollify the Southern voting bloc in Congress.
 
IOTL during World War I the South had a pretty serious spurt of Anti-British sentiment over the blockade preventing trade with Germany, which had emerged as a serious market for Southern cotton among other products. London had to agree to stabilize the price to help mollify the Southern voting bloc in Congress.

Great point.
 
Great point.

On an interesting note:

"This [The American Civil War-HL] is the last disgusting death-rattle of a corrupt and outworn system which is a blot on the history of this people. Since the civil war, in which the southern states were conquered, against all historical logic and sound sense, the American people have been in a condition of political and popular decay. In that war, it was not the Southern States, but the American people themselves who were conquered. In this spurious blossoming of economic progress and power politics, America has ever since been drawn deeper into the mire of progressive self-destruction. The beginnings of a great new social order based on the principle of slavery and inequality were destroyed by that war, and with them also the embryo of a future truly great America that would not have been ruled by a corrupt caste of tradesmen, but by a real Herren-class that would have swept away all the falsities of liberty and equality."​

- Adolf Hitler, 1933

Further still:

While spending a few months in prison after the collapse of the Confederacy, Alexander Stephens devoted some thought to the problem of the status of the newly freed African Americans. He still believed, just as in the days of the "Cornerstone Speech", in their inferiority to whites. But unlike many of his fellow white Southerners, he acknowledged that to deprive this large population of any "direct or indirect" voice in the government "would not only be an anomaly in Representative Government but would be manifestly wrong upon the principles of wisdom and justice." Without some representation, "their condition," he thought, "will be worse than that of the Astects [a spelling I have never seen before--DT] in Mexico and not much better than that of the Gipsies in all countries of Europe. Ultimate extinction would probably be their doom."​
Stephens envisioned a rather curious basis for the participation of African Americans in the government. Writing to his brother Linton in June 1865, while Georgia considered its new state constitution, Stephens proposed a novel system of representation. The population would be "divided into classes according to professions, pursuits, interests, and conditions." Blacks would be one of these classes but could choose their representative from any other class. It might be necessary at first to restrict their franchise or limit their choice to white men only or delay putting the plan into effect for a few years, but Stephens believed political rights ought to be given the freedmen for the South's own good. Under such a system, he thought the blacks "for years to come" would probably choose white men to protect their interests.​
Anyone see any possibility of any Southern state actually adopting something like Stephens' proposal? The only way I could envision it is if (a) enough white Southerners saw it as the only alternative to the Radicals imposing full black suffrage on the South, and (b) Andew Johnson was more skillful and flexible than in OTL, and used such a proposal to divide Radical from Conservative Republicans, instead of adamantly saying that suffrage was for the states to decide. Even then it would probably not last long, being equally unsatisfactory to African Americans, Radicals, and die-hard white Southerners. (And even if some sort of compromise on African American suffrage was possible in 1865, Stephens' proposal was a little too complex. It has an odd resemblance to various plans for "functional representation" that were seen in some fascist countries in the twentieth century, and even in some democracies, e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seanad_Éireann)​
(My source for all Stephens quotes is Thomas E. Schott, *Alexander H. Stephens of Georgia: A Biography* [Baton Rouge and London: LSU Press 1988], pp. 455-457. Alexander H. Stephens of Georgia: A Biography)​
 
Stephens envisioned a rather curious basis for the participation of African Americans in the government.
AFAIK nothing "curious" about it. Time proven for centuries, actually.
This is how various elective bodies in Europe had worked since the Middle Ages up to deep into the 19th century - or e.g. Hungarian Parliament up to 1918.
Also - wasn't the HK Legco similalry elected (or still is)?
As to:
he thought the blacks "for years to come" would probably choose white men to protect their interests.
1 - I once read that part of the success of English towns in the early English Parliament was the burghers electing Knights/Gentry as MPs. Such men carried more weight with their peers elected by Shires.
2 - this is more or less exactly what the British/local whites implemented - or at various points proposed, the system undergoing changes over time - in the Cape for Koloreds and Bantus.

Hence having piss poor illiterate blacks elect educated whites makes sense, from a certain point of view, as Obi-Wan Truthtwister Kenobi would have said.
Actually not that different to to one man one vote systems, where the electorate gets to vote for whoever the rich elites and their tame media present to them ... so, why the charade?
 
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AFAIK nothing "curious" about it. Time proven for centuries, actually.
This is how various elective bodies in Europe had worked since the Middle Ages up to deep into the 19th century - or e.g. Hungarian Parliament up to 1918.
Also - wasn't the HK Legco similalry elected (or still is)?
As to:

1 - I once read that part of the success of English towns in the early English Parliament was the burghers electing Knights/Gentry as MPs. Such men carried more weight with their peers elected by Shires.
2 - this is more or less exactly what the British/local whites implemented - or at various points proposed, the system undergoing changes over time - in the Cape for Koloreds and Bantus.

Hence having piss poor illiterate blacks elect educated whites makes sense, from a certain point of view, as Obi-Wan Truthtwister Kenobi would have said.
Actually not that different to to one man one vote systems, where the electorate gets to vote for whoever the rich elites and their tame media present to them ... so, why the charade?

Both true.Back to topic - i think,that allies still win WW1,but WW2 could be another thing - if Confederacy attack fast enough,they could take important parts of USA and made it impossible to support soviets as in OTL.Soviets could actually fall in 1943,and ,after that,we would have peace with Hitler Europe.
 
Both true.Back to topic - i think,that allies still win WW1,but WW2 could be another thing - if Confederacy attack fast enough,they could take important parts of USA and made it impossible to support soviets as in OTL.Soviets could actually fall in 1943,and ,after that,we would have peace with Hitler Europe.

Extremely unlikely. A win is a win - unless you assume the US collapses in some way like the Russian empire. As such a win for the allies in Europe would also mean a win of some sort for them in N America as well. If nothing else Britain especially would want Canada and its economic interest in the US secured.

Or are you talking about a win in WWI leading to a defeat in WWII? Again unlikely as a south defeated in the WWI conflict and already seriously outclassed by the north demographically and economically is likely to at least lose land and people - you could see a lot of blacks either given control of parts of the south or moving north, which would further weaken the south.

Plus again your assuming that WWII not only occurs but that there are states such as the OTL USSR coming into existence. It took a lot of things to go right for the Nazis for WWII to be the bloodbath it was rather than a small footnote about the overthrow of a distinctly deranged regime that briefly gained power in Germany and then overrun most of the continent.
 
PoD is Jackson merely being wounded, not killed, at Chancellorsville. He requires a convalescence for most of 1863 in the Carolinas, but returns to active duty by September just in time for the Bristoe Campaign in October. For those who aren't more intimately aware of Civil War history, this is basically what happened to Longstreet IOTL 1864. Jackson's return to his old command of Second Corps replaces the ineffectual Ewell with a solid, aggressive commander in a campaign that historically saw great opportunity wasted.

Allow me to give some context:

Jackson's fame came from his abilities in terms of maneuver, from quick marches to decisive turning movements, with him showing his skills most impressively in the cases of Second Manassas and Chancellorsville. Given the Bristoe Campaign is also alternatively called the "Marching Campaign", you can see how this would play in Jackson's strengths in of itself but the particulars of it in particular show this, in that there are multiple similarities to Second Manassas. While Meade is indeed a better General than John Pope was, failures in intelligence gathering and inter-Army communications are constantly plaguing him; case in point is an entire 24 hour stretch where the Federals have absolutely no idea where Lee is at. That's a particularly dangerous situation for the Army of the Potomac, which is entirely dependent on the Orange and Alexandria railway as its only means of escape and resupply. Further, Meade's efforts to stay near Culpepper leaves large formations of his Army with a major river, the Rappahannock, to their rear and across which they'd have to cross if they needed to make an escape. All of these factors actually would actually come together to seriously threaten Meade during the OTL campaign and ATL would give Lee, through Jackson, a major opportunity:

As the Rebel army began its movement around Meade’s right flank, the commander of the Army of the Potomac finally grew tired of waiting for word of Lee’s infantry. Absent any news from Gregg to show Lee was attempting a wider flanking movement, Meade concluded his enemy had probably massed around Culpeper. Although this had been true the evening of October 11, it was no longer true by October 12. But Meade operated on the only solid intelligence he had, which was Pleasonton’s report of Rebel infantry at Brandy Station on the afternoon of October 11. Of course the cavalryman had caught a glimpse of the infantry supporting Fitz Lee and not Lee’s main body, but there was no way for Meade to know that.

Meade determined to find out if Lee really was at Culpeper Courthouse and willing to fight. At 10:00 a.m., he ordered the VI, V and II Corps, along with Buford’s cavalry division, to cross the Rappahannock and advance on Culpeper. Major General John Sedgwick, commanding the VI Corps, would be in charge of the movement. If he found Lee, he was to report the fact to army headquarters and pitch into the Rebels. Meade would then hurry the rest of the army south to support Sedgwick, who would direct reinforcements into line as they came up.

About noon, Buford’s skirmishers struck the small force left by Lee near Culpepper. With a total of 680 men, supported by five pieces of artillery, the Confederates made a stand. Vastly outnumbered by Buford’s 2,000 troopers, and the three infantry corps behind them, Rebel cavalrymen engaged in every imaginable subterfuge to fool the enemy into believing there were more Southerners on hand than there really were. To their surprise and vast relief these antics seemed to work and the Yankee advance ground to a halt at dusk just outside Culpeper Courthouse.

But the Federal commanders were not fooled. By sunset, Buford and Sedgwick informed Meade that Lee’s infantry was nowhere near Culpeper Courthouse. This, of course, did nothing to tell Meade where Ewell and A.P. Hill had gone. As night fell, the Union army went into camp on both sides of the Rappahannock – Buford, the II, V and VI Corps, south of the river, the I and III Corps along with Kilpatrick and Gregg’s cavalry north of it. Come morning, Meade would have to decide what to do next in the face of the perplexing disappearance of the Army of Northern Virginia.

While Meade was shoving half his army back into Culpeper County, Lee’s troops had been moving steadily north. Gregg’s cavalry division was the trip wire strung out along the upper Rappahannock to provide Meade early warning of the very movement the Rebels were making. The first inkling Gregg had of the presence of enemy troops came around 9:00 a.m. when the leading Confederate cavalry regiment clashed with Federal pickets near Jeffersonton.

After a lull of several hours, a brigade of Confederate cavalry struck at Jeffersonton around 3 p.m., but was repulsed. Ewell’s infantry and artillery came up in time to take part in a second attack that drove two regiments of Yankee cavalry out of the town and back to Sulphur Springs, where a bridge spanned the Rappahannock. In a daring assault, Stuart’s horsemen forded the river and captured the bridge, driving away one of Gregg’s brigades and allowing part of Ewell’s infantry to reach the north shore before nightfall.

The Rebels were now over the Rappahannock and well on their way into Meade’s rear. Incredibly the commander of the Army of the Potomac remained ignorant of that fact until 9:00 p.m. — 11 hours after the fighting at Jeffersonton had begun and four hours after the Confederates had taken Sulphur Springs. The reason for this dangerous oversight was the suddenness of the Rebel assault that afternoon. A courier sent to warn Gregg that Rebel infantry was approaching the Rappahannock had been wounded and taken prisoner before he could carry out his mission. Therefore it was not until the Confederates were storming Sulphur Springs that General Gregg received word that Ewell’s corps was on the scene. By the time Gregg’s message conveying this fact reached Meade it was already late at night. Suddenly alert to the danger threatening his command, Meade immediately sent word for Sedgwick to pull his wing of the army back across the Rappahannock as rapidly as possible. French’s III Corps was swung westward to face a possible attack from Sulphur Springs, while Newton’s I Corps was ordered from Kelly’s Ford to Warrenton Junction on the O&A.

It was midnight before all the Union troops south of the Rappahannock were on the road and dawn before the last of them crossed the river, allowing the engineers to take up the pontoons and set fire to the railroad bridge at Rappahannock Station. Meade had ordered a full retreat all the way to Centerville at 1:00 a.m. and kept his men on the move throughout the night and into the next day.

Meade's completely in the dark as to Lee's movements, only finding out 11 hours after initial fighting that contact has been made and four hours after the Confederates have taken Sulphur Springs, meaning they are now moving into his rear. This is critical because, as previously stated, the Orange and Alexandria Railroad is the Army of the Potomac's only means of escape and resupply, as the ravages of the war have left the Virginia countryside largely barren. Jackson's abilities for hard, quick marches combined with his previous experience in the area will give him the edge to get into the Federal rear and cut the railway.

Meade won't know what's happening until it's too late and even once he does he simply lacks the strength to counter-attack until he gets Sedgwick's wing of the army across the Rappahannock. By the time that's done, Lee will have long since added Hill's Corps to Jackson's, placing the entirety of the Army of Northern Virginia to Meade's rear and likely with enough time to have fieldworks in play. The Army of the Potomac can't go cross country, so they're going to have to directly assault the Confederates in the hopes of breaking through their lines. Given Meade has only 80,000 to the 55,000 under Lee, who are also going to be dug in most likely, that simply isn't going to happen. In essence, Lee has the ability to completely destroy the entirety of Meade's command.

So, the Army of the Potomac is destroyed in October of 1863 by Lee. What’s going to happen next?

On the political level, it’s important to note that the 55,000 casualties suffered by Grant were enough to so shake Northern morale that Lincoln until the end of August thought he was going to lose re-election; Lee here in the ATL has done that better by increasing the losses by a third and completely destroying the chief Federal army. While Lincoln is blessed that this great defeat is not with his re-election at hand, it still comes during Congressional and State-level races that even IOTL saw, for example, a Copperhead endorsed by McClellan come within a hair of winning the Governor’s office in Pennsylvania. This defeat also comes when memories of the New York City Draft Riot, Detroit Race Riot and outright battles with Draft resistors in Ohio are still fresh; we’re also mere months away from disturbances in Lincoln’s home state of Illinois. The Peace Democrats are going to be incredibly strengthened by this, with major repercussions going into 1864.

At the strategic level, however, things are even worse. Outside of the troops in the immediate environs of Washington, there is no real Federal force to oppose Lee in the Mid-Atlantic. There are also no real prospects for any such force being constructed soon, as the Lincoln Administration had stripped what surplus forces existed in the aftermath of Chickamauga in order to rescue the now besieged Army of the Cumberland at Chattanooga; Grant had detached 20,000 under Sherman, while Hooker had been sent with 15,000 from the Army of the Potomac. Pulling out any other forces thus opens up serious dangers in other theaters, which greatly constrains the options for the Union cause. In short, Lincoln will have to decide whether he wants to save D.C. or, most likely, see another great military disaster around Chattanooga.

If the Federals fail to move to protect Washington, Lee will move to occupy Centreville and emplace batteries along the Potomac, closing it down to riverine traffic just as the Confederates did for nearly a year back in 1861-1862. Lee can then take the majority of his host, swing into Maryland and then occupy Baltimore, closing off the only rail connections into Washington. With the railways and the Potomac closed, the city will inevitably be forced to surrender at some point. In the meantime, with Lee in Baltimore, a secession convention can be organized for Maryland. Between the decisive defeat of Meade, D.C. under Siege and Maryland now in the Confederacy, it’s such a disaster for Federal arms that French intervention becomes essentially assured.

Should the Lincoln Administration attempt to save the city, the most likely route for such would be to pull the 15,000 troops of Burnside’s Department of the Ohio out of East Tennessee. Likewise, the 15,000 men that had been detached for Chattanooga from the Army of the Potomac under Hooker could be withdrawn, likely arriving in less than two weeks. 30,000 men isn’t enough to take on Lee in the field, but it’s sufficient to strongly picket the entry points into Maryland and reinforce Washington. Combined with Lee’s hesitancy to campaign that far North with winter coming, it’s probably enough to deter the Confederates. The problem is, however, that it opens up the Federals for certain disaster elsewhere, Chattanooga in particular.

Without Burnside at Knoxville, there’s no need for the Knoxville Campaign, opening up the railway network for use in aiding Bragg’s logistics. Perhaps equally important is that the 10,000 men under Maj. Gen. Samuel Jones in Southwestern Virginia can now perform a link up with Bragg’s Army. Returns from November suggest this would mean 69,000 Confederates against 57,000 Federals, once you remove Hooker’s 15,000 from the total. However, the Federals have a further disadvantage in that around 40,000 of their number is trapped within Chattanooga, on the brink of starvation in late October. These facts alone make clear that Grant is in serious danger here before you even consider specific operations.

Case in point is that Hooker’s men were used to protect Bridgeport, Alabama and its connections to Chattanooga, meaning what would become the “Cracker Line” origins point is dangerously exposed. Further, without Hooker’s men to guard Wauhatchie, Longstreet can take and directly cut the Cracker Line as its main point in Chattanooga. No matter which way you look at it, it’s definitely likely the attempt to relieve the city is going to fail. Accord to Thomas, in his famous correspondence with Grant when the latter arrived on scene, the Army of the Cumberland had, at most, seven days worth of rations left. By the time the Cracker Line was opened IOTL, they had, at most, a day’s worth. No matter how resolute George Thomas is, when the supplies run out it’s only going to be a matter of a few days before the Army of Tennessee is able to bag the 40,000 men of the Army of the Cumberland. Thereafter, with only Sherman’s 20,000 on scene and no hope of reinforcements, Bragg can either destroy the remainder of the Federals or, much more likely, retakes Tennessee and sets himself up in a position to move into Kentucky come Spring.

Between all of this, I think it’s safe to say Northern willpower to carry the war is going to be dangerously depleted if not outright destroyed. Even ignoring that, the French under Napoleon III were still serious about intervention into the Fall of 1863 and these decisive Confederate victories make such a move a near certainty. On the whole, I think this is a war winning scenario for the Confederates.
 
PoD is Jackson merely being wounded, not killed, at Chancellorsville. He requires a convalescence for most of 1863 in the Carolinas, but returns to active duty by September just in time for the Bristoe Campaign in October. For those who aren't more intimately aware of Civil War history, this is basically what happened to Longstreet IOTL 1864. Jackson's return to his old command of Second Corps replaces the ineffectual Ewell with a solid, aggressive commander in a campaign that historically saw great opportunity wasted.

Allow me to give some context:

Jackson's fame came from his abilities in terms of maneuver, from quick marches to decisive turning movements, with him showing his skills most impressively in the cases of Second Manassas and Chancellorsville. Given the Bristoe Campaign is also alternatively called the "Marching Campaign", you can see how this would play in Jackson's strengths in of itself but the particulars of it in particular show this, in that there are multiple similarities to Second Manassas. While Meade is indeed a better General than John Pope was, failures in intelligence gathering and inter-Army communications are constantly plaguing him; case in point is an entire 24 hour stretch where the Federals have absolutely no idea where Lee is at. That's a particularly dangerous situation for the Army of the Potomac, which is entirely dependent on the Orange and Alexandria railway as its only means of escape and resupply. Further, Meade's efforts to stay near Culpepper leaves large formations of his Army with a major river, the Rappahannock, to their rear and across which they'd have to cross if they needed to make an escape. All of these factors actually would actually come together to seriously threaten Meade during the OTL campaign and ATL would give Lee, through Jackson, a major opportunity:



Meade's completely in the dark as to Lee's movements, only finding out 11 hours after initial fighting that contact has been made and four hours after the Confederates have taken Sulphur Springs, meaning they are now moving into his rear. This is critical because, as previously stated, the Orange and Alexandria Railroad is the Army of the Potomac's only means of escape and resupply, as the ravages of the war have left the Virginia countryside largely barren. Jackson's abilities for hard, quick marches combined with his previous experience in the area will give him the edge to get into the Federal rear and cut the railway.

Meade won't know what's happening until it's too late and even once he does he simply lacks the strength to counter-attack until he gets Sedgwick's wing of the army across the Rappahannock. By the time that's done, Lee will have long since added Hill's Corps to Jackson's, placing the entirety of the Army of Northern Virginia to Meade's rear and likely with enough time to have fieldworks in play. The Army of the Potomac can't go cross country, so they're going to have to directly assault the Confederates in the hopes of breaking through their lines. Given Meade has only 80,000 to the 55,000 under Lee, who are also going to be dug in most likely, that simply isn't going to happen. In essence, Lee has the ability to completely destroy the entirety of Meade's command.

So, the Army of the Potomac is destroyed in October of 1863 by Lee. What’s going to happen next?

On the political level, it’s important to note that the 55,000 casualties suffered by Grant were enough to so shake Northern morale that Lincoln until the end of August thought he was going to lose re-election; Lee here in the ATL has done that better by increasing the losses by a third and completely destroying the chief Federal army. While Lincoln is blessed that this great defeat is not with his re-election at hand, it still comes during Congressional and State-level races that even IOTL saw, for example, a Copperhead endorsed by McClellan come within a hair of winning the Governor’s office in Pennsylvania. This defeat also comes when memories of the New York City Draft Riot, Detroit Race Riot and outright battles with Draft resistors in Ohio are still fresh; we’re also mere months away from disturbances in Lincoln’s home state of Illinois. The Peace Democrats are going to be incredibly strengthened by this, with major repercussions going into 1864.

At the strategic level, however, things are even worse. Outside of the troops in the immediate environs of Washington, there is no real Federal force to oppose Lee in the Mid-Atlantic. There are also no real prospects for any such force being constructed soon, as the Lincoln Administration had stripped what surplus forces existed in the aftermath of Chickamauga in order to rescue the now besieged Army of the Cumberland at Chattanooga; Grant had detached 20,000 under Sherman, while Hooker had been sent with 15,000 from the Army of the Potomac. Pulling out any other forces thus opens up serious dangers in other theaters, which greatly constrains the options for the Union cause. In short, Lincoln will have to decide whether he wants to save D.C. or, most likely, see another great military disaster around Chattanooga.

If the Federals fail to move to protect Washington, Lee will move to occupy Centreville and emplace batteries along the Potomac, closing it down to riverine traffic just as the Confederates did for nearly a year back in 1861-1862. Lee can then take the majority of his host, swing into Maryland and then occupy Baltimore, closing off the only rail connections into Washington. With the railways and the Potomac closed, the city will inevitably be forced to surrender at some point. In the meantime, with Lee in Baltimore, a secession convention can be organized for Maryland. Between the decisive defeat of Meade, D.C. under Siege and Maryland now in the Confederacy, it’s such a disaster for Federal arms that French intervention becomes essentially assured.

Should the Lincoln Administration attempt to save the city, the most likely route for such would be to pull the 15,000 troops of Burnside’s Department of the Ohio out of East Tennessee. Likewise, the 15,000 men that had been detached for Chattanooga from the Army of the Potomac under Hooker could be withdrawn, likely arriving in less than two weeks. 30,000 men isn’t enough to take on Lee in the field, but it’s sufficient to strongly picket the entry points into Maryland and reinforce Washington. Combined with Lee’s hesitancy to campaign that far North with winter coming, it’s probably enough to deter the Confederates. The problem is, however, that it opens up the Federals for certain disaster elsewhere, Chattanooga in particular.

Without Burnside at Knoxville, there’s no need for the Knoxville Campaign, opening up the railway network for use in aiding Bragg’s logistics. Perhaps equally important is that the 10,000 men under Maj. Gen. Samuel Jones in Southwestern Virginia can now perform a link up with Bragg’s Army. Returns from November suggest this would mean 69,000 Confederates against 57,000 Federals, once you remove Hooker’s 15,000 from the total. However, the Federals have a further disadvantage in that around 40,000 of their number is trapped within Chattanooga, on the brink of starvation in late October. These facts alone make clear that Grant is in serious danger here before you even consider specific operations.

Case in point is that Hooker’s men were used to protect Bridgeport, Alabama and its connections to Chattanooga, meaning what would become the “Cracker Line” origins point is dangerously exposed. Further, without Hooker’s men to guard Wauhatchie, Longstreet can take and directly cut the Cracker Line as its main point in Chattanooga. No matter which way you look at it, it’s definitely likely the attempt to relieve the city is going to fail. Accord to Thomas, in his famous correspondence with Grant when the latter arrived on scene, the Army of the Cumberland had, at most, seven days worth of rations left. By the time the Cracker Line was opened IOTL, they had, at most, a day’s worth. No matter how resolute George Thomas is, when the supplies run out it’s only going to be a matter of a few days before the Army of Tennessee is able to bag the 40,000 men of the Army of the Cumberland. Thereafter, with only Sherman’s 20,000 on scene and no hope of reinforcements, Bragg can either destroy the remainder of the Federals or, much more likely, retakes Tennessee and sets himself up in a position to move into Kentucky come Spring.

Between all of this, I think it’s safe to say Northern willpower to carry the war is going to be dangerously depleted if not outright destroyed. Even ignoring that, the French under Napoleon III were still serious about intervention into the Fall of 1863 and these decisive Confederate victories make such a move a near certainty. On the whole, I think this is a war winning scenario for the Confederates.

Nice scenario for getting us through the first part, Confederate independence! You figure that the way this plays out is there's foreign intervention and consequent blockade relief and lower Union morale. The dynamic in the Democratic Party shifts to favor Peace Democrats over War Democrats. Maybe Lincoln's renomination is threatened. But maybe despite the disaster, nobody in his party *wants* the poisoned chalice.

I tend to be a believer that until the last bit of constitutional executive power is taken from Lincoln's hands, cold and dead or not, he's not conceding the war is lost, so for the Union to concede CSA independence, the Peace Democrats need to win the 1864 election, get inaugurated, and concede it.

Ironically, if the Confederates are doing well enough that they're rampaging through Kentucky, and federal elections can't be held there, the effect *helps* the Republicans, since Kentucky was one of War Democrat McLellan's few EC states.
Maryland you would think, would be similar, but OTL it went for the Republicans, so it being taken out makes the Peace Democrats no worse off.

There may be military arguments for the CSA to intervene in Delaware, but if it forces the cancellation of elections there, there goes another few Democratic votes in the EC. New Jersey should still be strong for the Dems.

I don't think that any of the changes you're talking about militarily risk CSA occupation of West Virginia or Missouri. Because they become at high risk of voting Peace Democrat in a war going worse, but if the elections have the be canceled, their Electors don't count.

However, I don't know that we should think that all northern free states, midwestern free states and western free states - basically all the Lincoln 1860 Lincoln states plus Kansas and Nevada are guaranteed Republican wins in 1864 in your scenario or were even absolute landslide in OTL 1864 that couldn't be changed by drastically worse Union luck.

(OTL's margin was 212 ECVs to 21 ECVs and
2,218,3881,812,807

Based on elections of era, I could imagine that in your scenario, Peace Dems could flip the popular vote, and win the ECV with

(Reps - Iowa, Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, New York, CT, RI, Mass, NH, Vermont, Maine, Minnesota = 121 ECVs)

(Dems - NJ, Del, Penn, Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Kansas, Nevada, California, Oregon = 89) - assuming Kentucky is gone

Oops - so OK, that didn't work, but the situation with the war may be bad enough to flip either Ohio (21 ECVs) or New York (33 ECVs) and that's enough for the Dems to take it by a 10 ECV margin or a 34 ECV margin.

Republicans losing either Ohio or New York in 1864 is really essential. Losing New York makes the Dems resilient even against Confederate occupation and cancellation of elections in Delaware and Missouri (14 EVs) or a similar CSA occupation of Missouri and West Virginia. Democrats winning Ohio, but not winning New York, do not have as much of an EC margin against some of the smaller plains or western states sticking with the Republicans.

Anyway. That was a nice rabbit hole.

Bottom-line. CSA independence can happen.

It can happen without CSA-UK alliance, and certainly without a forever CSA-UK alliance. The French-CSA alliance doesn't have to be a forever thing because alliances don't have to be, and France itself is subject to regime change anyway.

Things can plausibly evolve in the 20th century such that there's USA CSA hostility, US-UK friendship, and CSA collaboration with somebody like Germany or Russia.

USA-CSA rivalry doesn't even have to about a burning northern desire for reconquest or slavery abolition. They could just have geopolitical rivalry over some borderland, or some influence in the Caribbean or South America, or the Pacific, or irritation over land-smuggling across the border to avoid tariff charges or if either state has different laws concerning alcohol prohibition.
 
Maryland you would think, would be similar, but OTL it went for the Republicans,
How rigged was it? Wasn't Maryland under Martial Law or something like that since spring '61?
Republicans losing either Ohio or New York in 1864 is really essential.
With the Imperial or Royal Navy parked outside and the city not making any money, I'd say that peacenik sentiment is high.

BTW - unexpected consequences - in OTL "Lawyer Sleazo" aka "Honest Abe" Lincoln outrageously made Nevada a state. Here I'd see New Mexico* being rushed through Congress as well. Any other candidates for rushed statehood to pad the EC with more Republicans?

irritation over land-smuggling across the border to avoid tariff charges or if either state has different laws concerning alcohol prohibition.
I once saw a TL/AH "CSA exists" fic where the Jewish White Slave trade was recreated on a massive scale, with northern brothels full of southern girls duped into going North. The North was richer, of course, because the CSA must be an almost failed state ...


* as nebulous and whimsical statehood criteria are, using practically any possible yardstick New Mexico was waaaay more qualified for such status than Nevada. It is Nevada which could/should had waited until 1912.
 
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Here I'd see New Mexico* being rushed through Congress as well.

I wonder if New Mexico was not expected to lean Republican though. Catholics typically leaned Democratic, but typical voting American Catholics were of Irish, German or French-Canadianor Creole origin, not Spanish or Mexican origin, so its hard to tell.

Any other candidates for rushed statehood to pad the EC with more Republicans?

Well, Utah Salt Lake City certainly had settlements. It's statehood I'm pretty certain was delayed so long until 1896 because of religious discrimination against Mormons and polygamy.

Maybe if Lincoln calculated that he could rush their statehood in without alienating others, and they'd scratch his back voting for him in return.

Nebraska was next up in OTL's order, in 1867.

I find it somewhat surprising/remarkable that Washington took as long as it did to become a state, not until 1889.

If you really want to do something desperate, I suppose there's the option of admitting a large Indian nation's lands as a state. Gathering and registering an uncertain number of votes from nomads is going to be tricky though. The model could perhaps more easily be applied to the Five Civilized Tribes in Indian Territory, but most of them sided with the CSA and they were closest to Texas forces. But maybe Union forces locally could be buffed up and the local Indian territory nation's loyalty could be won if the Feds conceded them a native state of Sequoyah. Of course that risks alienating white voters in other nearby states.
 
Great to know about Utah, Nebraska, Washington and NM!

I wonder if New Mexico was not expected to lean Republican though.
From notes to a fic set in NM in the 1850s I vaguely remember the NM side having some political splits which did not help matters. IIRC including a Catholic Priest in the NM delegation to Congress was not exactly helpful either.

IIRC "untaxed Indians" did not vote.
 
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One obvious source of tension not related to slavery between an independent CSA and the north could well be access of the Mississippi. Its so important to many of the interior states, including some of those on its Ohio tributary. True the Great Lakes/St Lawrence is an option for the latter region but that requires some canals and is blocked in winter until modern times. Railways help but are still more expensive than water transport, especially for cheap bulk goods.

Others might be continued border disputes or the black population, even after being freed. Will the north want a couple of million blacks heading north to escape Jim Crow type treatment in the south? Some big businesses might for the cheap labour but that's going to make them unpopular among the bulk of the white population.
 
Others might be continued border disputes or the black population, even after being freed. Will the north want a couple of million blacks heading north to escape Jim Crow type treatment in the south? Some big businesses might for the cheap labour but that's going to make them unpopular among the bulk of the white population.

Post-freedom black migration north can be seen as a "problem" by a majority of the white population on the border, but it is not obvious how that translates into geopolitical tension or to a northern desire for reconquest of southern territory - after all, if a black population is not desired, why compound it by occupying the south and getting a larger one. I guess a complex, indirect, sequence of events could lead that way, but it is not a simple, linear, overdetermined path.
 
Post-freedom black migration north can be seen as a "problem" by a majority of the white population on the border, but it is not obvious how that translates into geopolitical tension or to a northern desire for reconquest of southern territory - after all, if a black population is not desired, why compound it by occupying the south and getting a larger one. I guess a complex, indirect, sequence of events could lead that way, but it is not a simple, linear, overdetermined path.

I was thinking more of it causing tension, even with some in the north claiming that the south was 'dumping' unwanted blacks on them. Not very logical but then we're talking about humans here.
 

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