1788 Prussia is ISOT'd to 1913
- Thread starter WolfBear
- Start date
What would happen if 1788 Prussia was ISOT'd to 1913, with the same territories in 1913 Prussia being ISOT'd back to 1788?
This is a map of Prussia during this time:
Easy to explain.
1.1913 - Bavaria and Saxony happily cumperstomp 11788 prussians,Russia take East Prussia and polish territories.A-H take Silesia.
Result - stronger Russia,A-H,free german states again.No WW1.
2.1788 - prussians take over Europe.And,one-two generation later,uprising of all european nations backed by England finish german empire.
By 1913 Prussia included most of the German continental empire and its richest and economically most important lands were in the west, along the Rhine and up through Hanover and S-H. As such 1913 Prussia is probably still the strongest state in imperial Germany but the entire nation, and world, are thrown into confusion by the sudden appearance of the 1788 parts. Especially if Wilhelm II is lost would would the up-timers do about the imperial throne. How much claim does the elderly Friz [Frederick the Great] have since he was dead for ~80 years before the empire was founded? Sorry ignore this as he died in 1786, so its his heir Frederick William II on the 1788 Prussian throne.
Germany won't be eager for war here as its been thrown into chaos by the loss of the imperial capital and its eastern territories as well as a lot of manpower and a decent chunk of industry. The junker class could be largely gutted apart from those on service with the military elsewhere but their going to have fun trying to claim their estates back from the 1780 owners. Germany is going to have a huge task seeking to incorporate and update the 1788 lands, technologically, socially and politically.
Its possible that scenting weakness Russia and France might try something but if so their unlikely to get British support and with Germany crippled in this way I wonder if France could get A-L back by negotiation?
Germany won't be eager for war here as its been thrown into chaos by the loss of the imperial capital and its eastern territories as well as a lot of manpower and a decent chunk of industry. The junker class could be largely gutted apart from those on service with the military elsewhere but their going to have fun trying to claim their estates back from the 1780 owners. Germany is going to have a huge task seeking to incorporate and update the 1788 lands, technologically, socially and politically.
Its possible that scenting weakness Russia and France might try something but if so their unlikely to get British support and with Germany crippled in this way I wonder if France could get A-L back by negotiation?
To be honest, if the Franco-Russians wanted to get really nasty, they could offer Austria-Hungary Silesia in exchange for A-H agreeing to stab Germany in the back, though with Silesia being restored to its 1788 levels, I'm not sure that it would be a very worthwhile trade. I do wonder if Serbia might try to do something aggressive with Austria-Hungary if it gets Franco-Russian consent. Probably not since Britain will oppose them, but who knows, right? As for Germany giving up Alsace-Lorraine, a plebiscite there might be the best solution, though the question would be how exactly diaspora Alsatians and Lorrainers should vote: By absentee ballot? Or should they return to Alsace-Lorraine in order to cast their votes? And just how much proof for them would be required before they would be allowed to vote? Residence in A-L in 1871? In some other year?
But if France gets A-L back or at least some of it back, then this would be an extremely massive victory for France. Of course, I suspect that it's going to be really weird for 1788 Prussia's government to rule over a much larger Germany, but they'll have to make the most of it since the demand for a unified Germany in 1913 was already too high to back out of this now. Would be interesting that Posen Province is going to remain at 1913 levels of development while the territories to the north, south, and west of it are going to revert to 1788 levels of development, though. That's likely to be an extremely massive pain in the ass as Germany will desperately try to rebuild rail links and whatnot to Posen Province. Heck, the economic stagnation/crisis in Posen Province could even be enough to trigger a Polish separatist uprising there. Would Germany actually have the capacity to crush this uprising with Prussia's 1788 logistics (in regards to roads, railroads, et cetera)? Or would it be better to just let Posen Province go its own way, just so long as Russia agrees not to conquer it for itself afterwards? What do you think?
I don't think it would be the 1788 Prussian government that governs 1913 Germany as their too few in number and totally out of touch with the vast majority of the German population. You might see the capital move to sat Cologne or Frankfurt for a while rather than backwards Berlin but possibly moved back when Berlin is brought up to modern standards, although that could be a decade or so at least.
As you say if a major war is avoided then Germany is going to be busy bringing the infrastructure up to modern standards and also the population, which might be a bigger task.
Why 1913 Bavaria and Saxony should want be ruled by 1788 prussians? they were conqered to become part of united Germany - and in this scenario they would be strong enough to raze Berlin to the ground if Hohenzollerns try anything funny.
Not mention,that in this scenario France would capture Berlin on its own.
Would 1788 Prussians allow Germany to have the exact same level of democracy that it has previously enjoyed? Because if not, then I could see the Franco-Russians immediately supporting separatist movements in Germany, if necessary, through force. Britain might support them in this regard if the 1788 Prussians are still stuck being obstinate jackasses.
No need for that.Bavaria and Saxony still had its own armies - strong enough to conqer entire Prussia if Hohenzollern try anything.
Not just those states. The rest of 1913 Prussia, its population and military could be less than willing to accept orders from Frederick William II, especially if it involved rolling back civil rights to the 18thC. You might also see a movement in the region to restore Hanover as a separate state.
Hell, apart from the fact the rest of 1913 Germany won't allow it 1913 Denmark could wipe the floor with 1788 Prussia. the latter lacks the power to impose its rule on the rest of Germany. Furthermore its legal status for claiming such would be dubious. Which won't be that important in itself but does give reasons for both internal and external bodies to veto any such idea.
So,probably there would be no cyvil war - but Frederick would agree to leave most of his lands to those who wonted it and have 1913 army.He would be lucky to remain as prince of Berlin - but fighting would be madness.
But,on other hand,1913 prussia would rule world - for few generations,till alliance of all opressed nations would smash them.
Becouse,knowing prussians,they would go for worst conqest in this scenario,and have no enough people to keep it.
So, Denmark gets the 1920 border several years earlier and possibly without a war or at least with a very short war?
Also, could Germany see a revolution in this TL if the Prussian monarch is unwilling to change and adjust with the times? If so, could we see Germany become a republic in 1913? Would this result in a subsequent Franco-German republican rapprochement while the Austro-Hungaro-Russians drift closer together in order to defend the cause of conservative monarchism?
So, Denmark gets the 1920 border several years earlier and possibly without a war or at least with a very short war?
Also, could Germany see a revolution in this TL if the Prussian monarch is unwilling to change and adjust with the times? If so, could we see Germany become a republic in 1913? Would this result in a subsequent Franco-German republican rapprochement while the Austro-Hungaro-Russians drift closer together in order to defend the cause of conservative monarchism?
What Germany? in 1913 with 1788 prussia we would have free german states again.Which would be ruled by Kings and princes,so no republics there.
So, Denmark gets the 1920 border several years earlier and possibly without a war or at least with a very short war?
Also, could Germany see a revolution in this TL if the Prussian monarch is unwilling to change and adjust with the times? If so, could we see Germany become a republic in 1913? Would this result in a subsequent Franco-German republican rapprochement while the Austro-Hungaro-Russians drift closer together in order to defend the cause of conservative monarchism?
Denmark could fight off any 1788 German attack but an attempt to regain the territory lost in 1864 would likely face opposition from 1913 Germany.
I don't know about a Franco-German rapprochement but with the 1788 Prussia basically removed from play its quite possible that other parts of 1913 Germany see at least drastic political reform. Probably more likely parts of 1913 Prussia i.e. the Rhine provinces and Hanover than the historical states such as Saxony, Bavaria etc as they still have their accepted governments and monarchies.