Universal Basic Income

Yeah, but how much of that land is in desirable areas, areas safe for human habitation, or is generally accessible for development without massive investments of time, money, and material?

There's a reason why Brasilia, a city carved out of the Amazon rain forest to serve as Brazil's capital, is one of a handful of cities in the interior of the country.

I've travelled the US a fair bit. I've been in a lot of different cities, of all different sizes, as well as towns and villages.

Only the major metropolises have been at the point where there was basically no undeveloped land. There are literally chunks of forest protruding through the intermediary (non-core, non-outskirts) areas of mid-sized and small cities in the Midwest, New England, and South. And I'm not just talking about parks, literally chunks of undeveloped forest. Going onto the Plains states, you can find chunks of just open fields,

Expanding past my personal experiences, I just went and ran some looks around on Google Maps satelitte image view, and I found it to be true in many other parts of the country.

A ten percent, a five percent increase in supply, can have drastic effects on pricing due to how that changes the balance relative to demand.

And this is before you get into the many, many areas within the nation where there is a river or other easy source of freshwater available to support basic infrastructure, and there's just... nothing there. Maybe a couple of houses. Maybe no houses. Certainly not the kind of population center that it could easily support.

Heavy urbanization and increasing amounts of regulation on construction have tightly constrained housing costs. Normal market forces are being restricted from bringing prices down, and that's hurting almost everyone. The space to expand to is absolutely there in most cities. For the major metropolises, yeah, not a whole lot can be done as long as you concentrate so many people in such a small area.

I do hope that one of the effects of the Wu Flu and ensuing riots, is that a lot of industries will decide to move from the more expensive mega-cities, into mid-sized and small cities that are in convenient locations. There are a lot of advantages to this, and if the violence continues to intensify, then the 'cost of moving my factory' starts looking cheaper than 'the cost of replacing my factory after it's burnt to the ground.'

Especially because a lot of good relocation opportunities are just an hour or two away.
 
Of course, productivity is a, tricky thing to nail down: lets say for example you had a gold miner in the 1970s. Gold was priced at $240 dollars an ounce. He mines all the way till 2017, when gold costs $1,400 an ounce. Say he contributed 100 ounces a year in 1970, but as the mine was depleted over 40 years retired only producing 60 ounces of gold.

Did his productivity go up or down over those 40 years?

Or take someone working at a grocery: lets say in 1970, the town he lived in had a population of 50,000. By 2017, the population grew to 150,000, and the real income of the grocery store increased 4x. So, the store can be said to have gotten more productive as its utilization increased and it changed from a relatively relaxed small town to a small city. However, how much of the stores increase in productivity can be placed on that one person who worked at a groccery store for 40 years? How much of an argument could he really make that he was enough of a cause of the productivity spike to argue for a higher wage?

Or, if your a factory worker making cars, and average per worker productivity goes up because all the marginal textile manufactures who operated on the narrowest of margins transfered their operations to india, how does the average improvement in productively translate into a bargining position for you to have a signifigantly higher wage, especially if the actual factory you work in hasn't seen all that much improvement?
That specific chart is keyed to inflation adjusted dollars per worker hour. Edge cases and "this one scenario" situations like those are, again, a cause for missing greater trends instead of paying attention to the aggregate.

I've travelled the US a fair bit. I've been in a lot of different cities, of all different sizes, as well as towns and villages.

Only the major metropolises have been at the point where there was basically no undeveloped land. There are literally chunks of forest protruding through the intermediary (non-core, non-outskirts) areas of mid-sized and small cities in the Midwest, New England, and South. And I'm not just talking about parks, literally chunks of undeveloped forest. Going onto the Plains states, you can find chunks of just open fields,

Expanding past my personal experiences, I just went and ran some looks around on Google Maps satelitte image view, and I found it to be true in many other parts of the country.

A ten percent, a five percent increase in supply, can have drastic effects on pricing due to how that changes the balance relative to demand.

And this is before you get into the many, many areas within the nation where there is a river or other easy source of freshwater available to support basic infrastructure, and there's just... nothing there. Maybe a couple of houses. Maybe no houses. Certainly not the kind of population center that it could easily support.

Heavy urbanization and increasing amounts of regulation on construction have tightly constrained housing costs. Normal market forces are being restricted from bringing prices down, and that's hurting almost everyone. The space to expand to is absolutely there in most cities. For the major metropolises, yeah, not a whole lot can be done as long as you concentrate so many people in such a small area.

I do hope that one of the effects of the Wu Flu and ensuing riots, is that a lot of industries will decide to move from the more expensive mega-cities, into mid-sized and small cities that are in convenient locations. There are a lot of advantages to this, and if the violence continues to intensify, then the 'cost of moving my factory' starts looking cheaper than 'the cost of replacing my factory after it's burnt to the ground.'

Especially because a lot of good relocation opportunities are just an hour or two away.
Most of those situations you just described are actually the land being utilized efficiently.

Cities need those chunks of forestland to soak up water, clean, the air, and lower temperatures. Those trees tend to be critically important to a city's continued survival.


Farming won't work if you grow crops on every square foot of land every day or graze cattle on every square foot every day. Leaving fields fallow without crops or livestock periodically is a necessary part of any well-managed farm.


Additionally you may have seen land that didn't have water access to sufficient amounts to grow crops at an economic price point. Which ties into:

Rivers, these are usually the result of extensive treaties and agreements and you can't build houses along every square inch of riverland. For one thing most of the edges of a river are a floodplain and you'll get your house destroyed every few years when there's an unusually heavy rainfall five hundred miles upriver. What you're seeing as wasted space is actually land that will kill you if you're dumb enough to build on it.


Then there's the treaties. Again, you can't just build every inch of riverland. Vast sections of the Colorado river aren't built up yet there's so little water left by the time it reaches the Sea of Cortez there's not enough to sustain it and the Cortez Pearl farms have to fight oversalination while the land around it suffers so that California can consume everybody else's water.

And why does that happen? Because the Colorado River Compact redirects all the water to support Los Angeles, if idiots built houses and used up the water while living in the floodplain they'd all die in a flood and Los Angeles would die of thirst because of it as well. So there are specific agreements in place to prevent that from happening.
 
It's as Yinko said, it may create additional jobs but it will not create as many as it takes away, nor will the engineer's pay be as high as the people replaced. This is always the case with automation because if the robot doesn't do more work for less money (ie. total dollars going to the workforce) than the humans it's replacing, nobody will buy the robot in the first place*.

*One can probably imagine edge cases where this isn't true but they won't be significant enough to alter the basic argument.
I didn’t know Yinko was god on Earth. The true of the matter is with every new technology. There were claims it was going to put people out jobs!!! I’m sure the phone put people out of jobs. It also opened up a bunch of new ones. Just like the car and planes did.

Wait how much do you think a cashier makes at McDonald’s? That an Engineer or tech isn’t going to be making more?
A technician will be making more because flipping a burger isn’t as complicated as fixing, and running a machine.
And many of those cashiers will be moving on to better jobs. McDonald’s is entry level work unless you’re a manager, HR, or corporate.
 
In 2018 there were 3.7 million fast food employees. Let's say that 10% aren't unemployed by automation, you now have 3.4 million unemployed in the market.
Jobs for lower educated individuals are already in short supply due to a long history of automation, immigration and shifting towards a more information based economy.
The fast food companies are still making just as much, they just aren't paying out as much, so their profit margins become greater but the cash flow stays the same, which means that the normal benefits seen by the economy from increased profits are not seen here because net increases to employee income and hiring doesn't happen. No realistic number of engineers could be hired to take on the number of jobs lost or to equal the the pay of those people.

It wouldn't be as bad as automated transportation, but it could still set off the coming recession, or make it significantly worse.
 
Now a question, why is the cost of Rent increasing?
The cost of Rent is increasing because of leftist policies of rent control, and general nimby policies of zoning et al. in the high demand areas.
I'm not familiar with Thiel's specific lecture on this but the charts suggest that productivity did indeed increase while wages did not, with a marked divergence in the 1970s.
Part of that is women entering the work force. Productivity is a huge part of the demand, but women entering the workforce massively increased supply, suppressing wages.
In 2018 there were 3.7 million fast food employees. Let's say that 10% aren't unemployed by automation, you now have 3.4 million unemployed in the market.
Jobs for lower educated individuals are already in short supply due to a long history of automation, immigration and shifting towards a more information based economy.
The fast food companies are still making just as much, they just aren't paying out as much, so their profit margins become greater but the cash flow stays the same, which means that the normal benefits seen by the economy from increased profits are not seen here because net increases to employee income and hiring doesn't happen. No realistic number of engineers could be hired to take on the number of jobs lost or to equal the the pay of those people.

It wouldn't be as bad as automated transportation, but it could still set off the coming recession, or make it significantly worse.
This isn't a realistic depiction. First, especially for a franchise place, people are a lot cheaper than technology, especially if you want a changing menu. Ordering and paying is something that can be automated, but the cooking is expensive to replace. This means that these 3.7 million aren't likely to lose 90% of the workforce. On top of this, such innovation would cause a huge amount of jobs to be made (though less than the jobs lost), in the production, design, and related jobs relating to creating such machinery. Next, the job loss would be gradual, with people able to find jobs doing similar things (cashiers working at non-fastfood stores, etc). That money that the fast food place saves would be invested into other business opportunities, employing more people as well.

This will not be a crisis, unless someone comes in with regulation in a desperate attempt to save the jobs. That's what happened to taxi companies, then when uber finally came in and undercut the monopolies, some taxi drivers lost everything as taxi medallions they had bought that were worth a lot were suddenly worthless.
 
Part of that is women entering the work force. Productivity is a huge part of the demand, but women entering the workforce massively increased supply, suppressing wages.
Which kinda proves my point. Each time a machine becomes capable of doing a job that previously only humans could do, the supply of labor increases. Further since machines can be manufactured very quickly and computer programs copied widely, each time there's even a small breakthrough the supply of labor increases dramatically.

And as pointed out, if these machines created as many job-dollars as they replaced, nobody would build them and nobody would buy them, businesses do not throw money into the fire for no reason. So even though some new jobs will be created, there will be fewer job-dollars than before the machines came into the picture. Thus the labor market keeps getting squeezed and the squeeze will only get worse over time as robots get more capable. Twenty years ago everybody would have laughed at the idea that robots would be carrying on complex conversations but recently we found out over half of Twitter is entirely robots, and AI chatbots are being blocked, not because they can't chat but because they keep developing political alignments incompatible with the companies running them. What will robots learn to do in ten more years? In twenty?

This isn't a realistic depiction. First, especially for a franchise place, people are a lot cheaper than technology, especially if you want a changing menu. Ordering and paying is something that can be automated, but the cooking is expensive to replace.
I linked to half a dozen assorted reports that they are working on cooking machines right now.
 
Each time a machine becomes capable of doing a job that previously only humans could do, the supply of labor increases.
Completely backwards. The supply curve of labor is constant, it's the demand curve that shifts downward here. But it doesn't shift downward by a full job's worth of value, because all of the other people have become more valuable by a small amount. This of course does cause a reduction in total pay for the combined worker force, which the owner profits. But he spends that profit on:
paying off the loan he took out to buy the machine, which employs people.
Funding a new business or investing further in his current business, which employs people,
Buying a yacht, which employs people to make the yacht, care for the yacht, etc.

I linked to half a dozen assorted reports that they are working on cooking machines right now.
Oh, they're working on them. And a few will use them. But the vast majority of franchises won't. Machines are really expensive, new machines even more so, much more so than just employing a person to flip burgers.
 
Part of that is women entering the work force. Productivity is a huge part of the demand, but women entering the workforce massively increased supply, suppressing wages.
Completely backwards. The supply curve of labor is constant, it's the demand curve that shifts downward here.
Pick one. You can't have it both ways.

But it doesn't shift downward by a full job's worth of value, because all of the other people have become more valuable by a small amount. This of course does cause a reduction in total pay for the combined worker force, which the owner profits. But he spends that profit on:
paying off the loan he took out to buy the machine, which employs people.
Funding a new business or investing further in his current business, which employs people,
Buying a yacht, which employs people to make the yacht, care for the yacht, etc.
If he's spending all those profits and generating all those jobs... how come wages are stagnant and people aren't getting the money? How is he spending all this money yet somehow people aren't getting all this money?

I always see these claims like this but I never see anything to back it up. No studies, no analysis, no statistics, just a bald-faced claim that this is happening. I get stuff like "People have more new cars" but then I'm the one doing the research and find it's the opposite.

Oh, they're working on them. And a few will use them. But the vast majority of franchises won't. Machines are really expensive, new machines even more so, much more so than just employing a person to flip burgers.
Today the machine is really expensive. Next year, less so. In two years, cheaper than a person to flip burgers.
 
Pick one. You can't have it both ways.
I don't think you get what the supply curve is. The supply curve (in the labor market) is a function that takes as input a wage, and outputs the number of people willing to be employed at that wage, regardelss of whether or not they actually have a job. Thus women entering the work force increases the number of people that are willing to be hired at any given wage. But a person being fired doesn't affect the supply curve at all. The worker stays at the same position in the supply curve.

What does change is the demand curve. The demand curve (in the labor market) is a function that takes as input a wage, and outputs the total number of people that the firms in the market are willing to employ. So if a company gets a new machine, it's no longer willing to hire that many people at the given price, and instead wants to hire less people. This shifts the demand for labor curve down. Now, since the demand for labor decreases, the quantity of labor (the number of people employed) also decreases, but the labor supply curve doesn't move at all, instead a different wage is chosen.

If he's spending all those profits and generating all those jobs... how come wages are stagnant and people aren't getting the money? How is he spending all this money yet somehow people aren't getting all this money?

I always see these claims like this but I never see anything to back it up. No studies, no analysis, no statistics, just a bald-faced claim that this is happening. I get stuff like "People have more new cars" but then I'm the one doing the research and find it's the opposite.
People are getting the money though. So GDP is also equivalent to Net National Income, or the sum total of all US residents (legal and illegal) income. It's been pretty consistently going up. Meanwhile, prior to covid, unemployment was at a record low. People are getting the money, but a lot of this is hidden because the number of people entering the labor market rose sharply.

Also, one of the ways this has worked is by dramatically lowering the cost of living. Here's some data on this:

Also, real income has gone up for the individual.
Today the machine is really expensive. Next year, less so. In two years, cheaper than a person to flip burgers.
That's way to fast. You are treating this machine like it gets cheaper as microprocessors do. That's incredibly unlikely. Computers are one of the few things that depreciate in value so fast. Machines that actually do human actions, like making burgers, are years and years off financially.
 
I don't think you get what the supply curve is.
No, I know what it is. The problem is that the supply curve as you're using it here is literally tailored to exclude automation from the equation so it's utterly pointless to the discussion at hand.

It's more useful to regard "work" rather than "individual humans" as what is represented by labor, because the supply as you're defining it is purely willing humans so of course automation will never affect it, you're deliberately excluding the effects of automation in the first place!

This is a motte-and-bailey tactic. You claimed that women working dropped wages but argued that robots working don't, and are now trying to fail back by claiming that the wording is different when I called you on the contradiction of those two claims. Fundamentally your argument depends on the assertion that a woman operating a rivet gun changes supply in a fundamental way that a robotic arm operating a rivet gun doesn't. This is obvious nonsense which should tell you your base assumptions are wrong.

But the fact is that for supply-and-demand economics, supply is supply, it doesn't care about where the supply comes from, only the amount. And robots supply labor, so they increase the supply pool, regardless of how you want to play with the numbers by redefining your terms to exclude them.

People are getting the money though. So GDP is also equivalent to Net National Income, or the sum total of all US residents (legal and illegal) income. It's been pretty consistently going up. Meanwhile, prior to covid, unemployment was at a record low. People are getting the money, but a lot of this is hidden because the number of people entering the labor market rose sharply.

Also, one of the ways this has worked is by dramatically lowering the cost of living. Here's some data on this:

Also, real income has gone up for the individual.
We've already covered that specific manufactured luxury goods, especially electronics made in China, have gone down while necessities like rent and food have risen dramatically, and surprise surprise, every single item on that list except the bicycle and the grill are electronic devices manufactured in China, and nothing on the list is a basic necessity.

As for unemployment, the US only counts people looking for work in a specific way, not people who want to work more but don't have enough hours, or people who want to work but haven't been able to apply. This is pretty well known, there's been multiple issues before with the US reporting "Unemployment down" when there's zero actual new jobs, because there's also no postings for new jobs so people aren't applying.

Interestingly when you look at the Labor participation rate, which measures how much of the population is actually working, not just how many are filing, you get a much more grim picture.
2If1uqy.png


This is a shorter, more stretched version of the chart in the article above. Now consider the rise of part-time instead of full-time jobs and it becomes even worse as there's not only fewer people working, some of them can't work as much as they want. Even worse, these figures are with the majority of the boomers still working. Retirees aren't eating away at the percentage wholesale (that's coming in a couple more years of course) so this is actual losses to the working population. A permanent under/unemployed class, hidden from the unemployment figures by what amounts to creative accounting practices, is starting to emerge.

And of course the rise of part-timers is to cut out having to provide benefits, which is another way compensation has dropped (which jobs offer pensions these days?) that isn't reflected in the dollar figures.

That's way to fast. You are treating this machine like it gets cheaper as microprocessors do. That's incredibly unlikely. Computers are one of the few things that depreciate in value so fast. Machines that actually do human actions, like making burgers, are years and years off financially.
Facepalm. No, that's called hyperbole. I'm not making actual predictions and claiming that's exactly how many years it will take, I'm compressing the apparent time for emphasis.
 
No, I know what it is. The problem is that the supply curve as you're using it here is literally tailored to exclude automation from the equation so it's utterly pointless to the discussion at hand.
And you demonstrate that you actually don't know what a supply curve is. A Supply curve for labor exists mostly independently of what automation exists, and instead depends solely on worker choices. The Demand curve depends on company choices (as they are the buyers in the labor market), which would be affected by how much automation they had.

It's more useful to regard "work" rather than "individual humans" as what is represented by labor, because the supply as you're defining it is purely willing humans so of course automation will never affect it, you're deliberately excluding the effects of automation in the first place!
... I'm not, I'm putting it in the demand curve, where it belongs. Like every labor economist does. Because that's what the supply and demand is in the labor market is: a market for labor. What you are talking about is a separate market: the market for labor saving devices. This good (labor saving devices) serves as a substitute good for human labor, which means that if the price of labor saving devices goes down, the company buys more, and so demands less labor, causing a downwards shift in the Demand curve. The labor supply curve isn't affected.

This is a motte-and-bailey tactic. You claimed that women working dropped wages but argued that robots working don't, and are now trying to fail back by claiming that the wording is different when I called you on the contradiction of those two claims. Fundamentally your argument depends on the assertion that a woman operating a rivet gun changes supply in a fundamental way that a robotic arm operating a rivet gun doesn't. This is obvious nonsense which should tell you your base assumptions are wrong.
No, the difference between the increase in labor participation was drastic and quick. Let's look at your graph, specifically the x axis:
Now first of all, the reason it is down isn't because of automation, but instead the recession (starting at 2008) Second, it has gone up since 2015, mostly under Trump.
But the fact is that for supply-and-demand economics, supply is supply, it doesn't care about where the supply comes from, only the amount.
Yes it does. At the very top of a supply demand chart is the name of what the market is, like the market for fast food labor. That specifically limits what type of supply and demand is considered.
And of course the rise of part-timers is to cut out having to provide benefits, which is another way compensation has dropped (which jobs offer pensions these days?) that isn't reflected in the dollar figures.
Pensions stopped being offered because they mostly got replaced with 401k which don't lose you social security, people gained the freedom to move jobs without being chained to a pension (which meant they were able to negotiate for better pay with a more believable threat of going to another job), and that the money isn't as taxed as it once was (pensions were used as a tax loophole, along with a number of other benefits, because the income tax was so high up until JFK).

You also just ignored that wages aren't stagnant, as I linked a graph showing that real wages are up.
 
And you demonstrate that you actually don't know what a supply curve is. A Supply curve for labor exists mostly independently of what automation exists, and instead depends solely on worker choices. The Demand curve depends on company choices (as they are the buyers in the labor market), which would be affected by how much automation they had.

... I'm not, I'm putting it in the demand curve, where it belongs. Like every labor economist does. Because that's what the supply and demand is in the labor market is: a market for labor. What you are talking about is a separate market: the market for labor saving devices. This good (labor saving devices) serves as a substitute good for human labor, which means that if the price of labor saving devices goes down, the company buys more, and so demands less labor, causing a downwards shift in the Demand curve. The labor supply curve isn't affected.
You're quibbling about grammar at this point. The fact is that robots do labor, which increases supply. You're clearly capable of observing that increasing the amount of labor, by adding women, increased the supply but insist that machines won't do the same because you want to use a chart that puts the machines under a different section.

I meanwhile an concerned about whether the work's being done and who's getting paid, not arguing about which line you need to put the chart under and claiming that how you organize the data changes the facts at hand.

No, the difference between the increase in labor participation was drastic and quick. Let's look at your graph, specifically the x axis:

Now first of all, the reason it is down isn't because of automation, but instead the recession (starting at 2008) Second, it has gone up since 2015, mostly under Trump.
You know, the full chart was available under the link (as I stated), and I'm rather displeased that you didn't bother to read it, or else are just trying to be deceptive here.
yPq2han.png


The drops patently did not happen just in 2008, they began in the 90s. Nor have there been much in the way of gains under Trump (0.6% from June 2016 to January 2020, since then it dropped by 3.1%, the largest in years but that can be laid at COVID's feet).

Yes it does. At the very top of a supply demand chart is the name of what the market is, like the market for fast food labor. That specifically limits what type of supply and demand is considered.
No, it doesn't. The word on top of your chart matters because... oh wait it doesn't. Changing what you write on the chart doesn't change supply and demand.

Pensions stopped being offered because they mostly got replaced with 401k which don't lose you social security, people gained the freedom to move jobs without being chained to a pension (which meant they were able to negotiate for better pay with a more believable threat of going to another job), and that the money isn't as taxed as it once was (pensions were used as a tax loophole, along with a number of other benefits, because the income tax was so high up until JFK).

You also just ignored that wages aren't stagnant, as I linked a graph showing that real wages are up.
Your own freakin' reference says this:

So your own link says wages aren't going up but you agree with your link when it supports your argument, then disagree with it when it's second point doesn't support your position.
 
You're quibbling about grammar at this point. The fact is that robots do labor, which increases supply. You're clearly capable of observing that increasing the amount of labor, by adding women, increased the supply but insist that machines won't do the same because you want to use a chart that puts the machines under a different section.
... No, I'm not. The supply of labor has a well defined meaning shared among labor economists. It refers to how expensive it is to pay people to do a specific job (in this case, fast food stuff). Your conflation of this with the market for fast food saving devices is just wrong.
No, it doesn't. The word on top of your chart matters because... oh wait it doesn't. Changing what you write on the chart doesn't change supply and demand.
Yes, it does? I mean, you do know that different products have different supplies and demands, right? So when we are talking about different things, the supply and demand for those different things are different. For example, the supply and demand for fast food labor is different than the supply and demand of fast food labor saving devices.

So your own link says wages aren't going up but you agree with your link when it supports your argument, then disagree with it when it's second point doesn't support your position.
When I also cite a source that clearly shows real wages rising, I'm fine with contradicting part of another source. I don't see a lot of evidence for stagnant wage, and much of that depends on how one calculates inflation. A lot of wage stagnation/prosperity is hidden by the basket of goods used to calculate the CPI increasing in real value, so what some studies show as inflation is actually a real increase in value. Basically, when people earn more, they begin to buy more luxeries and better goods. This isn't necessarily shown though, resulting in some papers being able to claim stagnant wages, which just isn't true.
 
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Yea, this whole nonsense of "we are helping poor black people"
helping them into perpetual poverty maybe.

Perhaps that's the real plan. Keeping them dependent on government help, so that they will keep voting Democrat.

At least for as long as the Democrats still think they need actual people casting actual votes, rather than being able to simply fake up the totals they want...
 
Perhaps that's the real plan. Keeping them dependent on government help, so that they will keep voting Democrat.

At least for as long as the Democrats still think they need actual people casting actual votes, rather than being able to simply fake up the totals they want...
I've put some thought into how welfare programs are actually set up. Once someone's on the dole ... keeping them poor and on the dole is sorta the goal.

If someone with a shit job (or no job) manages to be frugal with their income and saves up "too much money" for a rainy day ... good for them, until they're told that they lose their benefits because they obviously don't need them. Then there's benefits phasing out faster than the recipient's income from working increases. When that's the case the recipient is punished for stuff like getting a raise, better job, 2nd job, or more hours. Um, yeah.

Those vocally and vehemently opposed to welfare aid and abet this state of affairs to their own political detriment every time they talk about or succeed in cutting and/or gutting welfare.

* "too much money" is often a laughably low number that might not be enough to cover something predictible like "my car needs brakes and rotors".
 
I've put some thought into how welfare programs are actually set up. Once someone's on the dole ... keeping them poor and on the dole is sorta the goal.

If someone with a shit job (or no job) manages to be frugal with their income and saves up "too much money" for a rainy day ... good for them, until they're told that they lose their benefits because they obviously don't need them. Then there's benefits phasing out faster than the recipient's income from working increases. When that's the case the recipient is punished for stuff like getting a raise, better job, 2nd job, or more hours. Um, yeah.

Those vocally and vehemently opposed to welfare aid and abet this state of affairs to their own political detriment every time they talk about or succeed in cutting and/or gutting welfare.

* "too much money" is often a laughably low number that might not be enough to cover something predictible like "my car needs brakes and rotors".
I also personally looked into it, and in many democrat controlled states if you have
> unemployed husband, unemployed wife, children

in such a scenario if the dad leaves the family and it becomes a single unemployed mother with kids she gets more govt money than if she remained with her husband.

even though it costs more money to also sustain the unemployed husband.
daddy govt refuses to allow a man in the household.
 

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