The Abortion Thread

Abhorsen

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Well, you can tie it to pretty much any vital organ, heart's the easiest to identify and brain's the thing responsible for what ethics *generally* concerns itself with. If the baby's missing a heart, that's developmentally fatal.
No, you can't link it to any other organ though. That's the thing. A human with a replaced heart is the same human. Even with an artificial heart, they are still the same human. Thus we can find that a heart is not a necessary part of being a single human person.
 

Fleiur

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... No, science doesn't tell you that. Science is actually uniquely bad at telling you things about morals, the soul, etc. Honestly, if you add as much rationality to it as possible, you really end up at about 8 weeks post conception (really at the beginning of human thought, which starts at earliest at 8 weeks) as the clearest dividing line.

Conception doesn't work because of identical twins. Because then at some point, one life splits into two, and now there are two points at which babies are born (conception and there). And also, what if the split isn't complete and there are siamese twins? Is that two people or one? And I could go on an on about the logical places where it falls flat, and I have.

The only reliable logical single point is the beginning of thought. All the others need exceptions wound through them everywhere.
What do you call the offspring of two human beings? A human being. The offspring of human beings is not an animal, not a tree, not a car, etc.

Therefore, abortion kills human beings.
 

Abhorsen

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What do you call the offspring of two human beings? A human being. The offspring of human beings is not an animal, not a tree, not a car, etc.

Therefore, abortion kills human beings.
But you are already sometimes wrong. Sometimes it's multiple humans despite being only one sperm and one egg. So does splitting a human create a human? Kill a human and create two? It's quite simply not that simple.

What about if the split isn't complete? Is that one or two people? How do you tell?

What about chimeras, where one fraternal twin absorbs another? How many people is that? Do they get two votes if it's two people?

What about if a baby loses a cell that doesn't go on to grow into a full fetus, but the cell just dies. Is that a human?

Seriously, you are just gliding over questions. That's fine if you want to just end discussion with "My religion says X", but that's not how rational inquiry works.

And also, what I'm doing, tbc, isn't science. There's no experimentation here, it's all just arguments. This is philosophy.
 

Fleiur

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But you are already sometimes wrong. Sometimes it's multiple humans despite being only one sperm and one egg. So does splitting a human create a human? Kill a human and create two? It's quite simply not that simple.

What about if the split isn't complete? Is that one or two people? How do you tell?

What about chimeras, where one fraternal twin absorbs another? How many people is that? Do they get two votes if it's two people?

What about if a baby loses a cell that doesn't go on to grow into a full fetus, but the cell just dies. Is that a human?

Seriously, you are just gliding over questions. That's fine if you want to just end discussion with "My religion says X", but that's not how rational inquiry works.

And also, what I'm doing, tbc, isn't science. There's no experimentation here, it's all just arguments. This is philosophy.
Regardless of how many there are (twins triplets, etc), science tells us that an offspring of human beings is a human being. They have the DNA of a human being and their development is part of the life cycle of a human being.

You do not share DNA with an animal or a tree because obviously, you're a human being because your parents are human beings.
 

Simonbob

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-Argues that killing twins is somehow proof that killing one kid isn't bad-

Seriously?

-Argues that natural deaths somehow proof that murder isn't murder-

Seriously?



I'll just point out, I think that we should kill humans, from time to time. However, I will freely agree that abortion is, in fact, at the very least, killing a potential human.

I also think that aborting the ones who'll never be anything of worth, at the very least, should be pushed. I've had repeated contact with retarded people, and I do not want, even slightly, to ever support them.

If the mother wants to keep that kid, let them pay for it.



None of this changes the killing in question.
 

Abhorsen

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Regardless of how many there are (twins triplets, etc), science tells us that an offspring of human beings is a human being. They have the DNA of a human being and their development is part of the life cycle of a human being.

You do not share DNA with an animal or a tree because obviously, you're a human being because your parents are human beings.
So first, the bolded part is wrong again. Science doesn't say shit about this. In fact, it cannot. This is a philosophy question, i.e. 'what is a human?' Science cannot tell you how to define a new human life any more than science can define the word "pink": people philosophically/socially decide about where pink should be (e.g. a lightish red), then science can go about determining what wavelengths of light/what RGB numbers fall into that category, but if the word changes, as they do over time, then the wavelengths of light that are classified as pink change as well. Note that the science didn't change, but the definition.

Fortunately, for something so fundamental, a more permanent definition is asked for, and we can base it on reasoning/philosophy, rather than social norms as we would for colors.


See, all science tells us is that a zygote, like egg and sperm cells, have different DNA than the parents, and are (usually, but not necessarily) inside the parent. But People can even have multiple different types of DNA in the same body, called Chimerism. And groups of existing human cells aren't special either: after a person dies, the cells still survive for a fair bit of time, and much longer if preserved for an organ transplant or the like. That does not make a human either.

Honestly, here's how to classify it: if pre-thought fetus is inside the mother, it's part of the mother's body. If it's outside, it's human tissue, just like a newly dead body, a cut off hand, etc. If it has a brain, it's a person.



Now you try to add "and there development is part of the lifecycle" but that doesn't work either. If I take that hand, extract skin cells from it, turn those into stem cells (I've heard there's a process to do this), then turn that into a line of cells that could turn into a human if implanted, is that now a human? How is that not just my body? If it isn't a human, how is it different from IVF creating a zygote?

Seriously, where did the new human life begin? According to you, it would have to be post implantation, as only then does it resume the lifecycle.

And going back to the chimerism/some cells splitting off but not duplicating enough to survive: both (arguably) the absorbed twin and (definitely) the split cells didn't really go through a life cycle. Do they thus never count as being alive as a separate person? Not by your definition. But if the split cells were saved by a doctor, then implanted later and grew, they might become a full kid.

-Argues that killing twins is somehow proof that killing one kid isn't bad-

Seriously?

-Argues that natural deaths somehow proof that murder isn't murder-

Seriously?



I'll just point out, I think that we should kill humans, from time to time. However, I will freely agree that abortion is, in fact, at the very least, killing a potential human.

I also think that aborting the ones who'll never be anything of worth, at the very least, should be pushed. I've had repeated contact with retarded people, and I do not want, even slightly, to ever support them.

If the mother wants to keep that kid, let them pay for it.



None of this changes the killing in question.
No, I'm arguing that there is no clear line one can draw other than at human thought. The zygote example is about "life begins at conception". The chimerism example is combating "but the mother and kid have different DNA", noting that people can have multiple types of DNA in their body.
 

Simonbob

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No, I'm arguing that there is no clear line one can draw other than at human thought.

Potential Human.

There are some rare edge cases, but they almost all either don't survive, or become a human, just the same.

When you Abort a "zygote" that stops a new human being born.
 

Abhorsen

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Potential Human.

There are some rare edge cases, but they almost all either don't survive, or become a human, just the same.

When you Abort a "zygote" that stops a new human being born.
If we start using potential humans, then wearing a condom also stops humans being born. So does being a cock block. That doesn't seem to be a useful term or distinction.

More, this still raises the question of when you think a 'potential human' begins, and where/when/how does a 'potential human' become a full human?
 

bintananth

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You do not share DNA with an animal or a tree because obviously, you're a human being because your parents are human beings.
Acually, we do. The DNA that's not shared is what really matters and sets us apart.

Take bonobos and chimpanzees, for example. About 99% of what Humans have, they also have ... but it's not the same 99% because there is some DNA only 2 of the 3 species have and some DNA only 1 species has.

The next two on the list of "genetic similarity to Humans" are gorillas and orangutans ... followed by gibbons.

"A primate with no tail" describes all of these species. Add "without an opposable big toe" or "with legs longer than their arms" and you've just described a Human.

Stone tool use is not unique to humanity. Chimpanzees, macaques, and two species of capuchins also use stone tools. Language also isn't unique to humans.
 

Simonbob

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If we start using potential humans, then wearing a condom also stops humans being born. So does being a cock block. That doesn't seem to be a useful term or distinction.

If I masterbate everyday for a year, no humans will appear from it.

If I impregnate a woman, unless something prevents it, one, or more, will.


Duh.


From the moment a woman is impregnated, unless something prevents it, a new human, or more, will happen. Aborting is actively killing said human.


Under a number of circumstances, I think it's quite reasonable to do so, but it's still what it is.
 

Agent23

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... No, science doesn't tell you that. Science is actually uniquely bad at telling you things about morals, the soul, etc. Honestly, if you add as much rationality to it as possible, you really end up at about 8 weeks post conception (really at the beginning of human thought, which starts at earliest at 8 weeks) as the clearest dividing line.

Conception doesn't work because of identical twins. Because then at some point, one life splits into two, and now there are two points at which babies are born (conception and there). And also, what if the split isn't complete and there are siamese twins? Is that two people or one? And I could go on an on about the logical places where it falls flat, and I have.

The only reliable logical single point is the beginning of thought. All the others need exceptions wound through them everywhere.
Thought is just electric impulses in the brain, though.
TBH we should just use the same standard for fetuses as we do for brain death, when incest and congenital disease are not involved.
 

Abhorsen

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If I masterbate everyday for a year, no humans will appear from it.

If I impregnate a woman, unless something prevents it, one, or more, will.


Duh.


From the moment a woman is impregnated, unless something prevents it, a new human, or more, will happen. Aborting is actively killing said human.


Under a number of circumstances, I think it's quite reasonable to do so, but it's still what it is.
But then when does an IVF treatment become a baby? By your logic, it would be at implantation, not conception.

And on top of that, what about a sperm near an egg that's going to fertilize it? Is that a potential baby? By your definition of letting nature take its course, it is.

On top of that, you didn't explain why condoms or cockblocking aren't stopping potential babies.
From the moment a woman is impregnated, unless something prevents it, a new human, or more, will happen. Aborting is actively killing said human.
See, it's not just from that moment, but from before that moment too that we are dealing with potential babies, which is why it's a bad term, IMO. Because is actively preventing the potential zygote thus killing a potential baby?


Thought is just electric impulses in the brain, though.
TBH we should just use the same standard for fetuses as we do for brain death, when incest and congenital disease are not involved.
Yup, though there is the chance not all electrical pulses are thought. Barring definitive proof of that though, I'd use brain electrical pulses as when life began, which is around 8-9 weeks (obviously this is unique per kid, you'd probably need to check if you were doing a 7 week abortion).
 

ShadowsOfParadox

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I'm going to be honest, any line you draw is going to be arbitrary and based more on fuzzy "this feels right" than hard logic.

You can say conception, you can say brain activity, you can say w/e, there's holes.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that no, getting raped does not obviate the rights of the infant, but, until we can figure out how to safely get the infant out of you so it's not hitting the trauma buttons, abortion is... something I'm more comfortable with as an option.

But, fundamentally, abortion is killing. It might be killing something that's not quite a person just yet, and it might be killing you think is justified, but it is killing.
 

Abhorsen

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I'm going to be honest, any line you draw is going to be arbitrary and based more on fuzzy "this feels right" than hard logic.

You can say conception, you can say brain activity, you can say w/e, there's holes.
That's the thing. I don't see a hole with brain activity, I do with everything else.

And the rest of your post I agree with, with the allowance that only abortion post-brain activity would be killing, before it's more an amputation as it's part of the mother.

But in general, looking at abortion as killing is right, and the question becomes when do you have the right to kill a baby? To save your life is something everyone agrees with. But does the mother have a duty to the baby? I'd say that if the sex was consensual, then yes (so does the father, but his only extends as far as raising and providing). But if not, then no.
 

bintananth

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I'm going to be honest, any line you draw is going to be arbitrary and based more on fuzzy "this feels right" than hard logic.
That's what makes it makes it so tough to draw a line the overwhelming majority is comfortable with.

Genetic defects, developmental defects, and mother's health (both mental and physical) are fairly non-controversial and generally considered acceptable reasons by all but the most extreme pro-lifers.
 

Abhorsen

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Genetic defects, developmental defects, and mother's health (both mental and physical) are fairly non-controversial and generally considered acceptable reasons by all but the most extreme pro-lifers.
No, the first two are very dubious and aren't generally accepted exceptions. I'd say no, personally. It's still a life.

The usual exceptions are threat to the mother's life, rape, or incest (because that's just an easy to demonstrate rape 99 times out of 100).
 

bintananth

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No, the first two are very dubious and aren't generally accepted exceptions. I'd say no, personally. It's still a life.

The usual exceptions are threat to the mother's life, rape, or incest (because that's just an easy to demonstrate rape 99 times out of 100).
I lump rape and incest into the mother's health category because of mental trauma buttons. Health instead of just life to cover cases where the mother gets something that won't kill her if left untreated while she's pregnant but treating it now will kill or harm the kid.

The other two are for situations where it's discovered that the kid won't live long or have severe disabilities if carried to term.

But where do you draw the line? That's the tough question.
 

Abhorsen

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I lump rape and incest into the mother's health category because of mental trauma buttons. Health instead of just life to cover cases where the mother gets something that won't kill her if left untreated while she's pregnant but treating it now will kill or harm the kid.

The other two are for situations where it's discovered that the kid won't live long or have severe disabilities if carried to term.

But where do you draw the line? That's the tough question.
No, mental trauma isn't a good enough reason. Someone can make up 'mental trauma' for anything, and thus slot that in under mother's health.

The line is simple to draw: if the fetus isn't a separate human yet (i.e. no electrical activity in the brain), you can do whatever with it, it's the woman's body. After that point, it's a separate human. Now if it's a threat to the mother's life (not just 'mother's health), a mother can kill the kid under the principle of self defense. If the mother didn't consent to the sex, the mother can kill the kid because she owes no duty to the kid. There should be no law forcing someone to save someone's life unless you owe a duty to them (you consented to being a parent, are paid to take care of them, etc).

And note that you are only able to kill the kid because there is no way to save the kid. If there was, then an 'evacuation' would be the proper way to proceed, where the baby is extracted then tried to be kept alive as best as possible.
 

Fleiur

Well-known member
Acually, we do. The DNA that's not shared is what really matters and sets us apart.

Take bonobos and chimpanzees, for example. About 99% of what Humans have, they also have ... but it's not the same 99% because there is some DNA only 2 of the 3 species have and some DNA only 1 species has.

The next two on the list of "genetic similarity to Humans" are gorillas and orangutans ... followed by gibbons.

"A primate with no tail" describes all of these species. Add "without an opposable big toe" or "with legs longer than their arms" and you've just described a Human.

Stone tool use is not unique to humanity. Chimpanzees, macaques, and two species of capuchins also use stone tools. Language also isn't unique to humans.
So, if we cross breed your mom with a monkey, you will have a half monkey sibling? So, if we cross breed your dad with a mango tree, you will have half mango tree sibling? That's my whole point.
 

Fleiur

Well-known member
So first, the bolded part is wrong again. Science doesn't say shit about this. In fact, it cannot. This is a philosophy question, i.e. 'what is a human?' Science cannot tell you how to define a new human life any more than science can define the word "pink": people philosophically/socially decide about where pink should be (e.g. a lightish red), then science can go about determining what wavelengths of light/what RGB numbers fall into that category, but if the word changes, as they do over time, then the wavelengths of light that are classified as pink change as well. Note that the science didn't change, but the definition.

Fortunately, for something so fundamental, a more permanent definition is asked for, and we can base it on reasoning/philosophy, rather than social norms as we would for colors.


See, all science tells us is that a zygote, like egg and sperm cells, have different DNA than the parents, and are (usually, but not necessarily) inside the parent. But People can even have multiple different types of DNA in the same body, called Chimerism. And groups of existing human cells aren't special either: after a person dies, the cells still survive for a fair bit of time, and much longer if preserved for an organ transplant or the like. That does not make a human either.

Honestly, here's how to classify it: if pre-thought fetus is inside the mother, it's part of the mother's body. If it's outside, it's human tissue, just like a newly dead body, a cut off hand, etc. If it has a brain, it's a person.



Now you try to add "and there development is part of the lifecycle" but that doesn't work either. If I take that hand, extract skin cells from it, turn those into stem cells (I've heard there's a process to do this), then turn that into a line of cells that could turn into a human if implanted, is that now a human? How is that not just my body? If it isn't a human, how is it different from IVF creating a zygote?

Seriously, where did the new human life begin? According to you, it would have to be post implantation, as only then does it resume the lifecycle.

And going back to the chimerism/some cells splitting off but not duplicating enough to survive: both (arguably) the absorbed twin and (definitely) the split cells didn't really go through a life cycle. Do they thus never count as being alive as a separate person? Not by your definition. But if the split cells were saved by a doctor, then implanted later and grew, they might become a full kid.
Abhorsen, you're a human being. You're not a dog. You're not a monkey. You're not a flower. You're not a tree. Your parents are humans beings. You went through the life cycle of a human being. Not a life cycle of an animal or a tree.


So therefore, abortion kills human beings. Not an animal or a tree. Because it kills an offspring of two human beings.
 

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