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What if the U.S. reacted promptly to Japan's participation in WWI and its threat to Philippine SLOCs

raharris1973

Well-known member
In OTL, Japan solicited and received a request from Britain for naval assistance against the Germans in the Pacific within about 3 or 4 days of Britain declaring war on Germany. Japan issued an ultimatum to Germany to send all its ships away from Japanese and Chinese waters and yield its fortifications at the Qingdao leasehold to Japan on August 23rd. In 48 hours, Japan declared war on Germany, and began the siege of Qingdao.

The Japanese Navy, without civilian government orders, even against civilian government orders, began to sail to and occupy German occupied islands in Micronesia about two weeks later in September. The Japanese government accepted the Navy's fait accompli, Japan ended up occupying all of the German Pacific north of the equator, and the Peace Treaty granted these island chains to Japan as a League of Nations mandate.

What if the U.S. Administration of time, goaded by the U.S. Navy, was more alert to the negative strategic implications of Japanese Pacific expansion for both hopelessly entangling US southwest lines of communication from Hawaii to Guam and the Philippines and Japanese lines of communication from Tokyo to the Carolines and Marshalls, and for the encouragement/justification this provides for further Japanese naval expansion?

And what if in it's alarm, the U.S. took a more proactive stance?

Despite vast distances, and the current distraction of the epic conflict in Europe, the idea of a US-Japanese conflict wasn't unthinkable. The first drafts of War Plan Orange had been worked on since 1907, which was around the same time Japan had first made some planning assumptions about the US being the primary antagonist. 1907 featured the voyage of the Great White Fleet, and President Roosevelt had privately expressed anxiety about the vulnerability of the Philippines before leaving office.

In this ATL, while watching the western front and the North Sea fleet actions with interest, one or more US fleet or Navy Department higher-ups, pay close attention to the Asia-Pacific theater especially once Japan declares war on Germany. Aide for Operations (the proto-CNO) Adm Bradley Fiske, or Secretary of the Navy Josephus Daniels, or his Assistant Secretary Franklin Roosevelt, between witnessing the siege of Tsingtao and wondering where in the Pacific the German squadrons are and getting reports of the New Zealanders occupying Western Samoa quickly realize how vulnerable the German-held Micronesian islands are to Japanese naval occupation putting Japanese naval control astride the route to the Philippines.

They in turn raise the alarm quickly, that a Japanese Micronesia is strategically unacceptable, to President Wilson, Secretary of State Bryan, and other Cabinet members.

As a neutral nation determined to remain neutral, American options are limited. But the Americans can increase Pacific and Asiatic fleet maneuvers around Hawaii, Guam, the Philippines, and points between.

Washington doesn't want Tokyo to grab these islands, but it doesn't want open hostility or undue tension with Japan either. So the Wilson Administration will have to settle on a diplomatically communicated approach to Britain and its Dominions. Britain, or its Dominions like Australia, New Zealand, or Canada occupying the Micronesian islands is a far less worrisome or troublesome prospect for the U.S. than Japanese occupation.

The U.S. communicates its satisfaction with British Empire occupation of all the German Pacific islands, but resolute opposition to Japan occupying any of them. Britain would probably say, and could say with all sincerity, that they've heard of no Japanese plans to take those islands. (Because even Tokyo didn't know yet!). But Washington could underline that the British Empire has to make sure Japan doesn't get there.

The British have plenty of better uses for their globally deployed fleet units and won't like to feel so obligated, but to underline their point, the Americans could say that if they can't count on the British to preempt the Japanese, Washington will have to work out a deal, maybe a purchase deal, with the Germans, to keep the islands out of Japanese hands and move them into American hands.

Suppose this pressure works and the British announce their intent to have their own forces or the Australians keep advancing north from northern New Guinea to occupy German Micronesia, and this is accomplished by the end of autumn 1914, keeping Japan out.

What are the subsequent impacts of a British or Australian Micronesia? What are the impacts on Japan at the Versailles Treaty and Washington Treaty? Can the Japanese be persuaded to get out of Shandong by 1922 as they were in OTL, if that is now the *only* thing they grabbed in WWI?
If they don't leave then, what are the consequences for China, Japan, and the west in the 1920s?

Even if that does not change, how do US, UK, and Japanese naval planning and expenditures change in the 1920s, 30s and 40s?
 

bintananth

behind a desk
Japanese, British, and American naval expenditures go way higher than they were when the Washington Naval Treaty put a stop to the arms race and there is no disarmament treaty because none of them can trust that the others will - at least nominally - honor it.

From the British perspective: the US asked us to fuck over an ally who was willing to do most* of what was asked.

From the Japanese perspective: if we can't trust our best Ally, we can't trust anyone.

From the American perspective: we made a mess of this and it's going to be bloody because we might have to fight both of them at the same time.

* The Japanese politely said "no" when the British requested that the Kongo's be stationed in Europe.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Japanese, British, and American naval expenditures go way higher than they were when the Washington Naval Treaty put a stop to the arms race and there is no disarmament treaty because none of them can trust that the others will - at least nominally - honor it.

From the British perspective: the US asked us to fuck over an ally who was willing to do most* of what was asked.

From the Japanese perspective: if we can't trust our best Ally, we can't trust anyone.

From the American perspective: we made a mess of this and it's going to be bloody because we might have to fight both of them at the same time.

* The Japanese politely said "no" when the British requested that the Kongo's be stationed in Europe.

Would agree. I think that Britain would be unwilling to oppose Japan, especially since as mentioned Japan has already occupied a number of the islands and that it has a valid reason to do so since its at war with Germany. Britain also wants the German presence in the Pacific removed to protect its own trade and troop movements to the European/ME fronts.

Also at the time Japan is still pretty much a 2nd rate naval power and it lacks the economic and fiscal as well as the military strength to really challenge the US. Given how isolationist the US was at this time I can't really see it deciding to threat either Britain or Japan. After all it took 2 1/2 years of German actions including sinking without warning US ships, terrorist attacks on the country and finally it admitting planning an aggressive alliance with Mexico against the US before the latter joined the war so the transfer of ownership of some Pacific islands from one colonial power to another is unlikely to be a big issue. It could be argued that German, a much more powerful nation is more of a threat to the US position in the Philippines, at least assuming they won the ongoing war.

There were tensions between the two nations, largely over the racist treatment of would be Japanese migrants, including those already in Hawaii prior to the US seizing of those islands but no serious issues and the US had war plans for conflict with just about everybody as part of their planning system.

A US purchase of the German colonies would create an issue as not sure what would happen in terms of possessions already occupied by allied powers. Suspect that the allies would insist on holding the territories they have occupied, at least until the German forces have been removed, including their fleet, of not until the war is over.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
I wouldn't call the 1914 Japanese "a 2nd rate Naval Power" because the four Kongo's could outgun and/or outrun every other battleship or battlecruiser in existence with an added "we did it first" naval airstrike using seaplanes just three days after declaring war on Germany at a time when dropping a bomb from an aircraft was a "wait, that's actually possible?" concept tossed in for good measure.
 

stevep

Well-known member
I wouldn't call the 1914 Japanese "a 2nd rate Naval Power" because the four Kongo's could outgun and/or outrun every other battleship or battlecruiser in existence with an added "we did it first" naval airstrike using seaplanes just three days after declaring war on Germany at a time when dropping a bomb from an aircraft was a "wait, that's actually possible?" concept tossed in for good measure.

Their the big regional power after the defeat of China and Russia in the NW Pacific but still not that powerful. The Kongo's were their 1st dreadnoughts and the 2nd was only 'completed' on 4th August 1914 - not sure what it classified as completed as that could exclude the standard working up period. The last two being completed in April 1915. Compared to Britain, Germany or the US their not in the same league at this point. Can't remember off the top of my head what dreadnoughts France had at this stage.

The 1st aerial bombing I knew of was by the Italians in their invasion of Libya in 1911-12 so it wasn't exactly unknown. To clarify that's by heavier than air a/c.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
Their the big regional power after the defeat of China and Russia in the NW Pacific but still not that powerful. The Kongo's were their 1st dreadnoughts and the 2nd was only 'completed' on 4th August 1914 - not sure what it classified as completed as that could exclude the standard working up period. The last two being completed in April 1915. Compared to Britain, Germany or the US their not in the same league at this point. Can't remember off the top of my head what dreadnoughts France had at this stage.

The 1st aerial bombing I knew of was by the Italians in their invasion of Libya in 1911-12 so it wasn't exactly unknown. To clarify that's by heavier than air a/c.
The Kongo's had 8x14" guns. They outgunned every other capital ship except for the American New York-class and could outrun those.

The Italian airstrikes (which I'd forgotten about) weren't naval airstrikes. Those were done using aircraft which took off from land.
 

stevep

Well-known member
The Kongo's had 8x14" guns. They outgunned every other capital ship except for the American New York-class and could outrun those.

The Italian airstrikes (which I'd forgotten about) weren't naval airstrikes. Those were done using aircraft which took off from land.

Don't know about that. The RN had ~12 BBs with 10x13.5" guns which would provide a challenge 1-1 plus have better armour while there are also a number of 13.5" BCs with similar characteristics to the two Kongo's. Plus Britain has the Queen Elizabeth's entering service. Germany had light guns but they still packed a punch and a number of BCs which were markedly better armoured than either RN or IJN BCs. The US had older ships as well as the New York's and the following Nevada's, the 1st of the standards were launched in 1914. Not completed until 1916 but possibly could have been finished faster in a crisis.

Japan and France - along with Russia if they had managed to complete their planned programme to rebuild after the losses against Japan - were powerful nations but definitely in the 2nd tier at this time period. That they were able to continue building as other nations had construction largely ended due to WWI - as with the US in the same time period. This plus the collapse/exhaustion of so many traditional powers meant they gained a clear 3rd place behind the UK and US ~1919 which was a different matter I fully agree. However in 1914 definitely one of the 2nd tier rather than the 1st.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
343mm versus 356mm rifles - no difference ...
And the Kongo's armour was nothing to write home about, as shown at Guadalcanal ...
At Guadalcanal Hiei was scuttled after being crippled by aircraft. Kirishima took on two much more modern American fast battleships (South Dakota and Washington) in the middle of the night and disabled one of them.

EDIT: eight pre-WWI 14" naval rifles v. eighteen post-WWI 16" naval rifles is not a fair fight.
 
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Buba

A total creep
I was talking about being shredded by 203mm shells. But OK, that was an unusual situation ... :)
But back to story - in 1914 the Kongos are top of the range battlecruisers, but not OTT good.
Any AC coming their way becomes an artificial reef very quickly. This is what "battlecruisers as devised by Fisher" were for, after all :)
But if an USN pre-dread is lucky and puts a 305mm shell in them - this will hurt ... there is a reason for which the Goeben refused 1:4 fights against Russian pre-dreads.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
I was talking about being shredded by 203mm shells. But OK, that was an unusual situation ... :)
But back to story - in 1914 the Kongos are top of the range battlecruisers, but not OTT good.
Any AC coming their way becomes an artificial reef very quickly. This is what "battlecruisers as devised by Fisher" were for, after all :)
But if an USN pre-dread is lucky and puts a 305mm shell in them - this will hurt ... there is a reason for which the Goeben refused 1:4 fights against Russian pre-dreads.
The American Iowa-class battleships were specifically designed and built to counter the upgraded Kongo's. 6kts faster than the two fast battleships Kirishima faced and that extra speed required using roughly an additional 10,000 tons of steel.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
Yes, there is no God but the Iowa and Massachusetts was her prophet :)
sig of ex-USS Massachusetts crewmember on another board
But why are we in 1944? We are discussing 1914 or thereabouts ...
Because it took about three decades for a capital ship the Kongo's couldn't either outrun or outgun to be built.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Because it took about three decades for a capital ship the Kongo's couldn't either outrun or outgun to be built.

Repulse, Renown & Hood would want a word here, ;) albeit the 1st two it could be a close fight 1-1. The new ships that all powers were building in the late 30's would have outclassed them and most would have been able to keep close to them, for a while at least. Not to mention all the ships not built because of the WNT which is what delayed development of other fast ships for ~15 years. Or the development of air power. But for that the Kongo's would probably have been scrapped by 1940, possibly by 1930.

Also the performance of Kirishima in the slot was largely due to lack of experience on the US ships, especially their lack of night training which the Japanese had worked hard on, coupled with a serious mistake or two by the captain of the S Dakota. Not to mention that by then the ship had been massive rebuilt into a still light but much better armed ship.

Steve
 

bintananth

behind a desk
Repulse, Renown & Hood would want a word here, ;) albeit the 1st two it could be a close fight 1-1. The new ships that all powers were building in the late 30's would have outclassed them and most would have been able to keep close to them, for a while at least. Not to mention all the ships not built because of the WNT which is what delayed development of other fast ships for ~15 years. Or the development of air power. But for that the Kongo's would probably have been scrapped by 1940, possibly by 1930.
The first two are newer than the Kongo's and barely outgun them in terms of throw weight but don't once range and is taken into account. Hood would be a better 1-1 close call and a Kongo outranges Hood by about 2.5 miles.

Also the performance of Kirishima in the slot was largely due to lack of experience on the US ships, especially their lack of night training which the Japanese had worked hard on, coupled with a serious mistake or two by the captain of the S Dakota. Not to mention that by then the ship had been massive rebuilt into a still light but much better armed ship.
The people matter just as much as the equipment they have does, if not more so.

If you and I were to be dropped naked in the middle of nowhere with no tools except for a wristwatch set to GMT "We're not lost, we just don't know where we are" is something I'd be able to say.
 

Buba

A total creep
If USA leans on Britain which leans on Japan - possibly in parallel to growling at Japan - to leave the bits of sand and coral alone and as a result the ex-German islands end up as an Aussie mandate, this need not piss off Japan.
The Empire grabbing those islands was a nice to have not a must have issue.
Post WWI Japan will be pissed at the UK and USA over several matters, but the never-to-be-"Mandates" probably will not make the Top 10 of Reasons to Hate Foreign Devils.
Shandong, Manchuria, Trans-Baikal, Sakhalin, Primorskiy Krai, China - all these matter much more than the flyspecks.
WNT should not be affected.
Interesting point about Japan possibly trying harder to keep its gains in the Russian Far East as to save face and have anything to show for its participation in the Great War Between Foreign Devils.

The biggest impact will be on pre-WWII war planning. With no Japanese bases astride the direct route to the Philippines the USA might - probably will - plan on fighting to hold them.
WWII in the Pacific would surely be different :)
 
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Atarlost

Well-known member
WWII in the Pacific would surely be different :)
For one thing it might not happen. How much less promising does naval expansion have to look for the IJA to win the power struggle? If Japan's just expanding into China and -- if they get their tank corps up to the task with the resources they aren't pouring into their navy -- Siberia and Mongolia, does anyone else care enough to declare war? Roosevelt can try to send guns to China, but if the Japanese have decided naval expansion is nonviable he can't dangle the battleships in Hawaii to get his causus belli.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
I was talking about being shredded by 203mm shells. But OK, that was an unusual situation ... :)
Just remembered this ...

The main reason Kirishima fought two fast battleships in the middle of the night: the USN effectively ran out of heavy cruisers and Halsey was basically forced to use fast battleships in confined waters because he didn't have any heavy cruisers which could be tossed into the meatgrinder now known as Ironbottom Sound.
 

stevep

Well-known member
The first two are newer than the Kongo's and barely outgun them in terms of throw weight but don't once range and is taken into account. Hood would be a better 1-1 close call and a Kongo outranges Hood by about 2.5 miles.

Is that range advantage before or after the extensive refits the Kongo's received in the 1930's? R & R are newer by about 1-2 years since they arrvived for service with the Grand Fleet shortly after Jutland.

The people matter just as much as the equipment they have does, if not more so.

If you and I were to be dropped naked in the middle of nowhere with no tools except for a wristwatch set to GMT "We're not lost, we just don't know where we are" is something I'd be able to say.

Which is exactly my point. Shortfalls in people and material along with geography and some luck made possible the damage the Kirishima inflicted on S Dakota OTL. Have that same battle occurring in daylight say and the Japanese, unless desperate or insane would have been using their small speed advantage to withdraw rapidly. The IJN made good use of the Kongo's but that was in part because they were more expendable, as well as their speed which gave them greater survivability against allied air power.
 

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