You are in charge of armored vehicle doctrine and design in 1939...

LordSunhawk

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The premise is in the title.

In 1939, you, with all of your current knowledge and the ability to look things up on wikipedia via some ROB's intervention are in charge of <insert country here>'s AFV development and doctrine, with complete carte blanche to develop it to your satisfaction.

The limitations are you are limited to the technology that exists in 1939, but you can mix and match it to fit your own vision of armored warfare.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
For the Germans, standardize on the Panzer IV Chassis with the short 75mm for the infantry support role as OTL but also the L60 50mm for the Anti-Tank role. Also, to quote from The Wages of Destruction by Adam Tooze:
Perhaps most dramatically in light of later events, the tank programme, which aimed for the production of 1,200 medium battle tanks and command vehicles between October 1939 and October 1940, was now to be cut in half.63

Between the continued allocation of resources and economies of scale, the Germans would have much larger production of a stable, effective tank model.
 
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Knowledgeispower

Ah I love the smell of missile spam in the morning
With the technology available at the time for the US...well looks like the M-48 and Walker Bulldog will be fielded way earlier
 

Free-Stater 101

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The premise is in the title.

In 1939, you, with all of your current knowledge and the ability to look things up on wikipedia via some ROB's intervention are in charge of <insert country here>'s AFV development and doctrine, with complete carte blanche to develop it to your satisfaction.

The limitations are you are limited to the technology that exists in 1939, but you can mix and match it to fit your own vision of armored warfare.
If I am only limited by tech and a time limit then their is a heck of a lot I can do. If I want the Nazi's to be taken out as quickly as possible the obvious choice for a country is France, as technologically they already outclassed the Germans in most designs.

Make sure their tanks have radio's and commit to DeGauls vison for doctrine.
 

stevep

Well-known member
If I am only limited by tech and a time limit then their is a heck of a lot I can do. If I want the Nazi's to be taken out as quickly as possible the obvious choice for a country is France, as technologically they already outclassed the Germans in most designs.

Make sure their tanks have radio's and commit to DeGauls vison for doctrine.

Their in the best position to stop the Germans early on but its some time in 1939. Even if 1-1-39 that's only about 17 months before the storm hits so relatively little time to develop new designs and even if your mandate overrides opposition from other elements of the army and the political leadership it could be a struggle. However if you can have the French armour modernise its doctrine in time, including having enough people trained in the new doctrine and especially if you can manage to persuade the French as to what is planned. [Mind you the Germans only committed to the sickle cut through the Ardennes so you can't be certain that will happen or something different]. However if you can then having a powerful force positioned to drive north, regaining the Sedan area and isolating the core of the German mobolised forces that have crossed that could be an huge victory.
I'm not massively knowledgeable about the technical details myself but as a Britain I would probably seek to:
a) Try and avoid the Liberty engine being used as its outdated, under-powered and unreliant. This seems to have been the biggest single design flaw with British tanks for much of the war. Have read there were suggestions that manufacturers in Birmingham had proposed an alternative and that might be a better option.
b) Try and get doctrine more towards a combined arms mentality. Too often it seems that British armour, at least in the desert campaigns seems to have charged off on its own and got isolated and often drawn onto prepared AT guns with much loss.
c) Try and organise it so that there's a decent - preferably division strength - armoured force that could lead a southern drive against any German thrust through the Ardennes, or if a more conventional German attack occurs to help defend positions by supporting counter attacks.
d) Work towards an early Centurion, albeit that its likely to be a couple of years off at least, especially if France still falls.
e) If d is impractical try and organise a regular development of new guns, engines, armour etc to steadily upgrade British tanks during the war. With an emphasis on survivorability of both units and crews.

Anyway, initial ideas albeit possibly not very practical.
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
Basically the Sherman, but with the auto leveler on the front page of the instruction manual, a heavy tank that compliments it, and a wheeled APC with an option of either paired BMG or a light autocannon.
 

Buba

A total creep
Work towards an early Centurion,
An early Cromwell/Comet would do nicely, thank you.
:)
My take - if British - prepare a cross between Valentine Mk.III and IX.
With some tweaks - three man turret BUT with cupola, if necessary the radio ejected to a bolt on external box (like Firefly) in the rear, external mantlet+trunions moved forward as to allow mounting of a medium velocity 3" cannon. With both AP and HE ammunition.
Plus minor issues like at least two hatches in the turret - and of a size not designed around the svelte and petite physique of crews from the Girls und Panzer anime.
If starting in early 1939 - I believe that such a tank could be available from mid-1940 or so. And is viable in Europe up to 1943.
The early Cromwell/Comet - I wonder if the Valentine suspension could be modified to three boogies per side and thus allow a heavier tank that c.18-20 tons.

Also - use the Light Tank Mk.IV as starting point for APC. Why? Front mounted engine ...
 
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ATP

Well-known member
If I am only limited by tech and a time limit then their is a heck of a lot I can do. If I want the Nazi's to be taken out as quickly as possible the obvious choice for a country is France, as technologically they already outclassed the Germans in most designs.

Make sure their tanks have radio's and commit to DeGauls vison for doctrine.

they made good Char 1G prototype with slope 60mm front armour,big turret,long 75mm gun,radio and rangefinger.

If they do not waste time and money on Char 1B,it could be mass produce instead.With right tactic - victory in 1939,when germans have no any good troops on french border anyway.
But - you need to start in 1934 to change that,not 1939.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
New French designs would have little effect on the course of the war; they were still new to mass production of modern tanks and the existing doctrine, organization and experience just wasn't there. The first DCR wasn't even stood up until January of 1940, with their armored formations rated by the Germans (who had been training and organizing since 1934) as barely capable of armored reconnaissance in late 1938. If you want to improve Allied performance, the USSR or United States is the best to look at, IMHO. The T-34M in mass production in 1940/1941 would be a real game changer, for example.
 

LordSunhawk

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As the US... I'd have 3 distinct lines of combat vehicles.

First, a light tank, using twin Cadillac V-8 engines mated to Hydromatic transmissions like in the M5, but armed with a 57mm Diggs-Schroeder gun (which were still in use in various Coast Guard vessels at the time) instead of the 37mm, with a larger well sloped turret, large crew escape hatches, and a 4 man crew (eschewing the hull machine gunner).

Second a medium tank, making use of a Ford GAA again mated to a Hydromatic transmission. I would place the engine and transmission in a 'power pack' arrangement in the rear for easier maintenance and replacement, and by having the transmission at the rear I avoid the need for great height to allow clearance for the driveshaft as seen in the Sherman. Again a 4 man crew, with large hatches for easy egress. I'd make use of torsion-bar suspension, and arm the tank initially with a 3/50 gun derived from the naval weapon, to be replaced as soon as possible with a longer barreled weapon.

Finally a family of vehicles, making use of a front-mounted engine and transmission to clear the rear. The base vehicle would be an early IFV, armed with a turret containing a single barrel 1.1" automatic cannon (shamelessly stolen from the Navy and painted olive drab while we pretend we have no idea what happened) with troop space for a full squad.

Variants would include ambulance, ammo, command, artillery (both howitzer, field gun, and mortar), an a SPAA variant with a quad .50 mount.

Doctrine wise, I would ditch the tank destroyer concept and embrace a fully mechanized combined arms doctrine requiring the Army Air Corps to operate in close coordination with armor and infantry columns (one of the variants of my family of vehicles based on the IFV would be a dedicated liaison vehicle for this purpose).
 

Free-Stater 101

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Doctrine wise, I would ditch the tank destroyer concept and embrace a fully mechanized combined arms doctrine requiring the Army Air Corps to operate in close coordination with armor and infantry columns (one of the variants of my family of vehicles based on the IFV would be a dedicated liaison vehicle for this purpose).
9b6c0db7c8d0481037f8cf8566e9ee6a.jpg

Why on earth would anybody put in charge of armored doctrine ditch the M18 Hellcat?
M18_hellcat_side.jpg
 

Free-Stater 101

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You do realize, I hope, that my proposed medium tank concept is based on a properly armored mix of a T22 and a Hellcat, yes?
Lol relax, I am excravagating for the sake of hilarity. In any case, I didn't put that together as those engine specs flew over my head.

Anyway, as long as the heresy of leaving out the Hellcat all is assuaged all is forgiven.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
So,depending on country:
1.Poland - in 1939 all what i could do is making more TKS tankettes with 20mm guns.Notchng change,except more dead germans.

2.Belgium - more tank destroyers,and send half of them them to Ardennes.If French act in time,german are stopped,war of attrition start,AND.....Stalin backstab his ally in 1942 or 1943 when France finally start loosing.
MON DIEU, i just gave entire Europe to soviets.

3.France - SAU 40 tank destroyers andstart mass producing of Char 1G,and send armored units to Adennes,too.Result - the same like Belgium.

4.England - Valentine as infrantry tank ,forget about Churchill,go for Centurion.In 1944 you have Centurions with 83mm czech guns.Still let soviets take everything they wanted.

5.USA - M4 with 76mm gun from the start,do not made M3,use M5 when needed instead.M26 in 1944 or maybe even 1943.
Still let soviets take everything they wanted.

6.Soviets - wait for T.43,do not waste money on KV2,later - T.44 and IS2,but with 100mm gun.More germany taken over,maybe part of Denmark,too.

7.Hungary - buy Skoda tank,but with long 75mm gun/Turan3/ ,tank destroyers from 1941.Result - fighting longer and surrender to Allies.

8.Romania - tank destroyers from 1941.Fight harder,but soviets still take over.

9.Italy - buy Pz3,Skoda or Pz4 license, build tank destroyers from 1941.Egypt taken by Rommel in 1942,still lost Africa in early 1944,switch sides later,quickly taken by Allies.Help Take Slovenia,Croatia and maybe part of Hungary and Serbia.

10.Japan - Type 3 and 4 tanks from 1941 and 1944,tank destroyers from 1941.British do not retake Birma,USA are bogged on Philippinos and do not attack Okinawa,soviets do not take part of Korea.
A bomb still end war,but - no North Korea here.

11.Germans - Marder 2 from 1940,Pz4 with long 75mm gun in 1941,Tiger 1 in 1942.Panther from DB from 1943.
Tiger 2 with bigger turret and good engine in 1944,E.50 in the same year.
Still lost,this time after taking few nukes to the face.
But - hold soviets longer,so Hungary ,Czech and Yugoslavia would be liberated by Allies.
Poland and Romania still under soviets yoke.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
The premise is in the title.

In 1939, you, with all of your current knowledge and the ability to look things up on wikipedia via some ROB's intervention are in charge of <insert country here>'s AFV development and doctrine, with complete carte blanche to develop it to your satisfaction.

The limitations are you are limited to the technology that exists in 1939, but you can mix and match it to fit your own vision of armored warfare.

The United States Army was pretty late to the game of modern tanks, which is definitely something that can be fixed.

My short-term goal from 1939 to 1941 would be to set up an "experimental" armored unit for the purpose of absolutely dominating the Louisiana Maneuvers training exercise. This will serve to validate "my" radical retro-modern tank doctrine over the tactics being pushed for by the established Army leadership. Most especially, I want future General Patton, who was one of the training division commanders, all in on 'new armor'.

As of my arrival in 1939, the Army is midway through its production run of M2 Light Tanks, with the current version being the M2A4 armed with a 37mm gun in response to reports from the Spanish Civil War that machine gun tanks are just not cutting it. The M2 Medium Tank, which is actually derived from said M2 Light, is just starting production. While these are both mediocre designs, all of the fundamental engineering needed for much more advanced tank designs is in place; it's just that the Army is very conservative and no one has seriously anticipated just how much bigger and more powerful tanks are going to become in the next two decades. And the internal politics that led to American tanks being built entirely as infantry support platforms while the anti-tank role went to artillery division tank destroyers didn't happen until 1941, and can be preempted entirely.

That's what I'm providing. I would be directing crash development of new M3 Light and M3 Medium tanks, both built around having high-velocity guns of the largest practical calibers, specifically yoinking some of the Navy's high-velocity tertiary guns and fitting them in tank turrets. The new M3 Light is to be armed with a 57mm, while the M3 Medium will be armed with a 3" gun. Attention will be paid to minimizing profile, with secondary armament limited to a single coaxial M1919 and a top-mounted M2HB; glacis and sponson MGs will be eliminated, and a priority will be placed on getting gyrostabilizer systems fitted and refined as quickly as possible.
 

Buba

A total creep
Germany, starting 1.I.1939:
1 - anybody mentioning "interleaved wheel suspension" gets taken outside and beaten. If necessary I threaten with concentration camp.
2 - I kill the Pz.III and make Pz.IV the one and only chassis for everything. I bring forward the F model, i.e. with simplified lines, wider tracks, thicker armour, albeit with a 7,5cm/L35 or so cannon - it is the one and only tank, the chassis also used for Sturmhaubitze IV and - in modified form - for the Hummel/Naschhorn. The Sturmhaubitze - although otherwise drawing heavily on OTL Sturmgeschutz III, gets a Jagdapanzer IV type of of casematte, not the artisanal manufacturing atrocity of OTL. But I'm getting ahead of myself - production of Pz.III ends before it starts, Pz.II production is cut back, only the Pz.IV gets made.
3 - as the Czech plants are incapable of handling anything heavier, they are made to churn out the OTL Marder III M, with engine in centre of vehicle, in AT - Marder, SPG - Wespe, and Close Support - Grille variants. Of course, the centre-engine chassis has to be designed first - hence the first such vehicles can be expected in units in early '40 (at best). Until then the Pz.38(t) is produced "as is".
4a - if the output of Czech factories does not suffice then the Pz.II would share the load, with similarly modified chassis (i.e. OTL Wespe) used for AT/SPG and/or CS variants.
4b - if enough production capacity - the front-engined OTL Wespe chassis is used for APC instead of the overengineered Sd.kfz.250 and 251. Those half-tracks (with BOTH wheel and track steering!) are killed, replaced with armoured Maultiers using Pz.I or Pz.II running gear (i.e. like Maulteirs in OTL).
5 - not sure if still inside the Panzer supremo brief - but I kill the motorcycle fetish and use the engines wasted on the sidecar bikes for Kuebelwagens and suchlike. Motorcycles are solely for messengers.
6 - again not sure if still inside the Panzer supremo brief - but all interleaved wheel half-tracks replaced with unarmoured Maultiers (see above). Number of weight classes cut down to 3-4.
6a - suggestion of Sd.kfz.2/Kettenkrad is punished by concentration camp.
7 - recce vehicles - maybe keep the Sdkfz.250 as light scout and for InfDiv, and/or or a brought forward Puma is used as the heavy. Or use a modified Pz.II/38(t) variant.
8 - the OdeB of Armoured Divisions is: single Tank Regiment with three battalions, some 150-200 tanks; two MotInf Regiments, each with two Battalions; a recce Battalion with 3-4 coys; Artillery Regiment with 2-3 Battalions (SPG maybe in 1940, certainly in 1941) - that will allow easy formation of 2-3 Kampfgruppe as appropriate.
9 - going by OTL - objective is formation of PanzerGruppe, with two/three standardised Armoured Corps - each of 2 PzDiv and 1 MotInf Divisions (two Infantry Regiments), plus army troops in the form of a 3 Regiment strong MotInf Division.
10 - I arrange for Ferdinand Porsche to be marooned by outbreak of war in the UK or, if that fails, he has an accident ...
11 - I aim to end war in late '41, by mid '42. I don't plan for later :)
 
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ATP

Well-known member
Germany, starting 1.I.1939:
1 - anybody mentioning "interleaved wheel suspension" gets taken outside and beaten. If necessary I threaten with concentration camp.
2 - I kill the Pz.III and make Pz.IV the one and only chassis for everything. I bring forward the F model, i.e. with simplified lines, wider tracks, thicker armour, albeit with a 7,5cm/L35 or so cannon - it the one and only chassis for tank and Sturmhaubitze IV, and in modified form for the Hummel/Naschhorn. The Sturmhaubitze - although otherwise drawing heavily on OTL Sturmgeschutz III, gets a Jagdapanzer IV type of of casematte, not the atrocity of OTL. But I'm getting ahead of myself - production of Pz.III ends before it starts, Pz.II production is cut back, only Pz.IV gets made.
3 - as the Czech plants are incapable of handling anything heavier, they are made to churn out the OTL Marder III M, with engine in centre of vehicle, in AT - Marder, SPG - Wespe, and Close Support - Grille variants. Of course, the centre-engine chassis has to be designed first - hence the first such vehicles can be expected in units in early '40 (at best). Until then the Pz.38(t) is produced "as is".
4a - if the Czech factories are do not suffice then the Pz.II would share the load, with similarly modified chassis (i.e. OTL Wespe) used for AT/SPG and/or CS variants.
4b - if enough production capacity - the front-engined OTL Wespe chassis is used for APC instead of the overengineered Sd.kfz.250 and 251. Those half-tracks (with BOTH wheel and track steering!) are killed, replaced with armoured Maultiers using Pz.I or Pz.II running gear (i.e. like Maulteirs in OTL).
5 - not sure if still inside the Panzer supremo brief - but I kill the motorcycle fetish and use the engines wasted on the sidecar bikes for Kuebelwagens and suchlike. Motorcycles are solely for messengers.
6 - again not sure if still inside the Panzer supremo brief - but all interleaved wheel half-tracks replaced with unarmoured Maultiers (see above). Number of weight classes cut down to 3-4.
6a - suggestion of Sd.kfz.2/Kettenkrad is punished by concentration camp.
7 - recce vehicles - maybe keep the Sdkfz.250 as light scout, and/or or a brought forward Puma is used as the heavy. Or use a modified Pz.II/38(t) variant.
8 - the OdeB of Armoured Divisions is: single Tank Regiment with three battalions, some 150-200 tanks; two MotInf Regiments, each with two Battalions; a recce Battalion with 3-4 coys; Artillery Regiment with 2-3 Battalions (SPG maybe in 1940, certainly in 1941) - that will allow easy formation of 2-3 Kampfgruppe as appropriate.
9 - going by OTL - objective is formation of PanzerGruppe, with two/three standardised Armoured Corps - each of 2 PzDiv and 1 MotInf Divisions (two Infantry Regiments), plus army troops in the form of a 3 Regiment strong MotInf Division.
10 - I arrange for Ferdinand Porsche to be marooned by outbreak of war in the UK or, if that fails, he has an accident ...


As far as i knew,czech made V-8-H medium tank prototype with 47 mm gun,but possibility of making bigger turret with bigger gun.Germans could produce that.
And after fall of France - made Renault mass produce their Char-1G prototype.Althought,unless they gave kolchoz land to soviet people and treat them humanly, they would lost anyway
 

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