Religion You are going to die... so let's discuss what we each think happens next.
- Thread starter Terthna
- Start date
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
On what basis do you claim that?
We can't really verify what happens to you after death, so I don't think anything more than speculation is possible here.
on the basis that i have no memory of life, before i began living
it was just a timeless nothingness. death will be no different
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
We don't have evidence, either way, though.
Besides, why do you think the fact we have no memory of existence before our conception is an apt comparison? It seems you're assuming we existed in some form before then, but then "forgot everything" once the sperm fused with the egg that made us. Death isn't necessarily like that, as—unlike before we were born—we have pretty good reason to believe that we do, in fact, exist and perceive the world around us before we die.
you and i are living and conscious, because our hearts are pumping blood throughout our bodies and organs, and our brains are able to perceive and process information from the world around us. when our hearts stop pumping and our brains stop perceiving the world around us, there is nothing. we don't sense time, we don't sense anything. we don't even sense our lack of sensation - we have no means of doing so
nothingness, eternal and devoid of time and all senses. you know, just like you and i were before we were living
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Our body definitely fails when we die, but again, you're assuming material existence is all there is to us.
We may not have evidence of an afterlife, but just because we can't perceive or study it, doesn't mean that there simply isn't one. After all, the Romans didn't know about germs, and would've laughed in your face if you tried to explain that organisms too small to see were responsible for all those plagues and diseases. And yet, they still existed, so while I certainly don't find the Dead's silence "comforting", we can't just assume that no evidence that we know of means no existence after death whatsoever.
we are material existence, and we have to consume other living things in order to sustain our material existence
our consciousness and means of perceiving the world around us, only exists because of material processes which are sustained through material sustenance
i am a religious man in life
in death i return to nothing
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
As far as we know for sure, that is.
I suppose my question for you, then, is why you believe the material plane is all there is for us? So far, you've answered by repeating that the processes that sustain our bodies cease, but that's not what I'm asking. What I'm asking you is why you assume a material existence is the only one we live, as absence of evidence (no proof of an afterlife) isn't the same as evidence of absence (no afterlife at all).
i have no memory of anything prior to being conceived and born into life. i will not have any conscious awareness of anything when i am dead and my flesh and bones are fertilizer
and theories like reincarnation do not make sense, because the only reason you are you, is all do to random chance. it is a miracle of chance that you and I were ever even born to begin with. when we die, other creatures will nourish themselves on us, will reproduce, and other random miracles of chance will be born...but none of them will ever be us. they will be an entirely new consciousness risen from nothingness, that will someday return to nothingness.
if anything, having children is the way to live after death. we can even choose who we have children with, to "design" our future children through the combined genetics of the man and women involved. just by you and i being alive, we are descended from a line of creatures that goes back before we were even humans. it is how we evolve, and who we are becomes the instinct of our offspring
that is our afterlife
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
You continue to repeat the same assertions, but don't really answer my question at all.
In which case, how about I try and word it this way, and ask why you believe that the physical reality we can perceive must necessarily be the totality of reality? Biological processes definitely happen, but just because we know they happen for sure, doesn't mean there's nothing more that we can't perceive or detect. Answer that, and we'll be out of this back-and-forth where I keep asking the same question, while you keep providing me with reworded versions of the same answer.
there are certainly things in life that our brains cannot perceive, or our senses cannot detect, that are very real and around us.
but in death, the things that allow us to be conscious and perceive anything at all, cease to function
but let's put it this way : have you ever been knocked unconscious? and if so, what do you remember of it? what was your perception of time? when the brain goes blank, things go blank my friend
if it seems to you that i am providing you with "reworded versions of the same answer", it is because this is what i believe. you have your beliefs. nothing wrong with a back and forth discussion
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Except you're still assuming the material world is all there is for us, without addressing what I'm actually asking. What I'm talking about is a different plane of existence other than the one we're aware of, not just being unaware of what's going on in the material world (as we are when unconscious or asleep).
Second, I really think this back-and-forth discussion is more of a loop than anything else. I've tried to word my question clearly and ask you why you've concluded that the world we know about (that is, the material plane) is the only one where we can exist as self-aware entities, but on that front, we seem to be at an impasse. As such, I think we might as well end it here, and respectfully disagree on the probability (or lack thereof) of life after death.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
Do you know what existed before the Big Bang? Everything has to start somewhere; that does not mean they must therefore end in the same place. Or that they have to end period; change is also a possibility, from one form to another.
Consider your baby teeth; in a vacuum, a child could easily assume that losing them means never being able to chew anything ever again. How are they supposed to know without being told that new ones will grow back in their place? If a soul exists, perhaps our current physical forms are akin to baby teeth to them; and though it loses what enables it to perceive (or chew), something else arises that serves the same function.
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Thanks, man. You worded my point more clearly than I did, so hopefully, the discussion will rekindle itself.
Otherwise, your idea of our souls shedding the limitations of our bodies and being able to explore the totality of existence actually appeals to me more than "mainstream" conceptions of the afterlife—Heaven, Hell, reincarnation, and oblivion—do.
Although, it'd be interesting how interactions with other spirits might go, considering that the shackles that constrained us in life (i.e. language barriers) would no longer apply, allowing us to express ourselves perfectly, with no miscommunication whatsoever. Same for how they choose to perceive their new environment to begin with, as I can see "new" souls imagining surroundings that resemble the material world they left when they died, mostly because it's still "familiar" to them. In any case, it'd make for some decent fiction, though I doubt any of the big studios will feel inclined to look into it anytime soon.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
Actually, they already did to a certain extent; back in 1998, with the film adaptation of What Dreams May Come:
A lot of my thoughts on the afterlife were inspired by having watched that movie at a young age.
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Thanks. Bit before my time, so I was too young to watch it in theaters (though I may watch it later on).
All in all, pretty fascinating, and certainly more appealing to me than losing my individuality via reincarnation or losing everything via oblivion. Still, it'd pose a real existential crisis for me, since I'd know that any "simulation" of my friends and loved ones—however perfect—would never actually be the person themselves. Never mind how I'd get bored eventually, and would probably start "branching out" to interact with fellow spirits, since I'd be curious to get to know (and reconnect with) dead relatives of mine and see what kinds of worlds they came up with.
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Bit of a delay here, but if the afterlife is anything like what @Terthna predicts, I honestly wonder what the dead would make of everything that's transpired in the Land of the Living since they left?
Personally, I'm inclined to think @Lord Sovereign is correct about the dedicated historians enjoying their "bird's-eye view" of history in the making, as well as the chance to finally observe and correspond with the long-dead historical figures they wrote and read so much about in life. But they'd be in the minority, I think, since most people—at least, holding their mindset and thought process more or less constant—would become apathetic and find it increasingly difficult to follow world affairs after watching for a century or two. After all, I can imagine many Romans turned their backs on the material world after watching Rome be sacked, since to them, the Empire was everything. (Whether they might've tuned back in later as soon as things stabilized somewhat, I don't know.)
Personally, I'm inclined to think @Lord Sovereign is correct about the dedicated historians enjoying their "bird's-eye view" of history in the making, as well as the chance to finally observe and correspond with the long-dead historical figures they wrote and read so much about in life. But they'd be in the minority, I think, since most people—at least, holding their mindset and thought process more or less constant—would become apathetic and find it increasingly difficult to follow world affairs after watching for a century or two. After all, I can imagine many Romans turned their backs on the material world after watching Rome be sacked, since to them, the Empire was everything. (Whether they might've tuned back in later as soon as things stabilized somewhat, I don't know.)
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Another odd thought that came to me last night: who else enters the afterlife?
Yes, I know the usual answer is "humans", but seeing as we're not the only ones to die, I wonder if there are other beings that'll be in the afterlife with us? Not just your beloved pet dog or a houseplant you neglected, but also extinct species, like that dinosaur whose fossils are displayed at the local science museum or whatever. Can't say how actual interactions with them would go, exactly, but if you want another thought to keep you up at night, @Terthna, how about the prospect of encountering Neanderthals and other archaic humans who've been dead longer than all of the historical figures you can think of? It'd be thrilling for paleontologists and anthropologists (and historians!) everywhere, I imagine, with the added bonus of being invulnerable and no need to worry about a hunter-gatherer's spear piercing their heart or a T-Rex biting someone's head off.
I shall curse my enemies with my dying breath by invoking the name of Crom.
In a hail of bullets and glory, I shall leave this wretched existence and watch as Crom causes the Mother of Natural Disasters (Yellowstone eruption) to destroy my enemies.
In a hail of bullets and glory, I shall leave this wretched existence and watch as Crom causes the Mother of Natural Disasters (Yellowstone eruption) to destroy my enemies.
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
You know, the more I think about it, the more the idea of writing some original fiction that builds on Terthna’s ideas really appeals to me.
I know he already cited What Dreams May Come as his inspiration, but it’s singularly focused on one man’s experience and attempts to reunite with his wife, as opposed to the broader implications of a fully customizable afterlife where people shed the limitations of their bodies and material constraints no longer apply. Hopefully, that’s something we can look forward to once our time comes, though ultimately, there’s only one way to find out.
I know he already cited What Dreams May Come as his inspiration, but it’s singularly focused on one man’s experience and attempts to reunite with his wife, as opposed to the broader implications of a fully customizable afterlife where people shed the limitations of their bodies and material constraints no longer apply. Hopefully, that’s something we can look forward to once our time comes, though ultimately, there’s only one way to find out.