Alternate History World War III: 1988, aka "The War of '88"

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
@Tiamat
What possible insurgents can be used though? I think the Labor Party even if gutted in Britain, could still become a tool

Also, I think its one of those presumptuous talk about how fiction changes the world, at best, he may have helped give people a release from a world they hate or some fantasy they’d prefer. Like a Pseudo-Communist utopia that would maybe manage to extremely enrage an actual Communist-Dystopia
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
@Tiamat
What possible insurgents can be used though? I think the Labor Party even if gutted in Britain, could still become a tool

Also, I think its one of those presumptuous talk about how fiction changes the world, at best, he may have helped give people a release from a world they hate or some fantasy they’d prefer. Like a Pseudo-Communist utopia that would maybe manage to extremely enrage an actual Communist-Dystopia

Well, remember the groups I mentioned? Red Army Faction? Action Directe? The PLA and PLF? Red Brigades? Etc. etc.? They would love nothing more than to strike a blow at the heart of the Yankee Imperialist War Machine now, wouldn't they....?
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
What about the poorer non-Western countries? I think they maybe harder to convince

When they look at the West and Capitalists, all they may see are exploiters, Communists on the other hand are loved due to sheer romanticism and promises of a God/Government able to give them everything they want

Well, remember the groups I mentioned? Red Army Faction? Action Directe? The PLA and PLF? Red Brigades? Etc. etc.? They would love nothing more than to strike a blow at the heart of the Yankee Imperialist War Machine now, wouldn't they....?

They’ll have to live as terrorists, spies and guerilla fighter equivalents than actually launch an assault

How much can they accidentally make the public hate them?

If they manage to even genuinely shock and dishearten Hollywood-Leftists and Academics and entertainment creators and guys doing news....there may come a time where the police have to devote resources

So that they don’t get lynched by a people(s)they united in sheer hatred against them
 
D

Deleted member 88

Guest
Interesting points here, I'll try to answer as best I can, again without spoilers.



The GRU Spetsnaz and KGB saboteur teams, with possible help from the East German Stasi, have their plans as stated to go after key civil infrastructure and personnel. Actually getting to some of them will be the problem. Law enforcement in the larger cities, and especially around port, manufacturing and refinery facilities are going to be spending extra on vehicles, weapons and antiterrorist training, within reason anyway. Some of the larger cities like New York City for example, will form their own antiterrorist task forces, if they haven't already. A movie example would be the ATAC (Anti Terrorist Action Command) squad from the movie Nighthawks.

Another element is the State Guards, not to be confused with the National Guard. The State Guards are going to get some additional funding to aid in the event of civil unrest or a nuclear attack, and more importantly to protect key infrastructure areas, doubly so when the FBI and CIA both confirm the very real possibility the GRU, Spetsnaz, Stasi and who knows who else will try to launch attacks inside the U.S. if and when the war comes. The emergency funding will come especially when Reagan and Weinberger get a report detailing the actual equipment and readiness levels for the State Guard which was, well, not great, and Reagan leans on the states to start whipping the Guards into better shape.

For more info on the State Guards, you can look here: State defense force - Wikipedia

That said...going after an American general or maybe a cabinet member on the Hill is one thing...and something that some of the Soviet/COMBLOC teams will probably attempt. Aiming for high profile figures like Reagan or Bush, or one of the Joint Chiefs? Not a good idea, as that could risk serious escalation, and just getting to the higher profile figures will be near impossible. D.C. and the Pentagon along with a few other key sites are going to be shut off from the general public with round the clock protection by U.S. Army National Guard, Marines, FBI and Secret Service.

As for when the Soviets go to war, something to consider here: The Soviets built their army to be an OFFENSIVE instrument. Strike hard, and go fast. Push NATO out of Germany and the Low Countries, take Denmark, and try to take the northern half of Norway, then force the allies to the table. Failing that? Push into France. The Soviets didn't really build their military as much for defensive purposes, as they felt the best defense was always a good offense, and with the Kremlin junta paranoid and convinced war is inevitable, they're going to decide at some point to do just that based on some key impending events...

While the Soviets have concerns about the reliability of some of it's satellite states like Poland and Czechoslovakia, keep in mind Gorbachev was deposed before he was able to institute more key reforms that began to make him popular in Eastern Europe. Here the Soviets and their friends like Honecker have clamped down viciously on any form of dissent. But how long they can continue to clamp down on such dissent remains to be seen once the war starts. And wouldn't the Americans and Brits, among others be interested in taking advantage of said tensions? Hmmm....

As for NATO not being an offensive force? Not entirely true. Even if NATO was tasked with defending Europe, it also knew it would theoretically have to fight hard and counterattack to retake lost ground from the Soviets and WARPA, on the assumption they could tilt the odds in their favor. So, there are a lot of pro and counter arguments to be made for the strategies on both sides.

As for bleeding the Americans to the table, the Soviets are counting on just that. They're hoping that America hasn't shaken off Vietnam just yet and hope the Americans will start pleading for peace in the face of mounting casualties and a possible impending nuclear Armageddon. However, in the cruelest form of irony, some key decisions, such as certain operations involving Dark Mirror might end up inducing the opposite reaction altogether. Also remember, this is after the events in Mexico with GREEN FOX. The Americans are pissed about the Cubans and Libyans showing up with self styled revolutionaries in Mexico and the deaths of multiple Americans along the Texas border, and while the Soviets weren't directly involved in that, the images of Soviet equipment in Mexican warehouses (yes, they were Cuban supplied, but that's sort of beside the point) and the backhanded comments from the Soviets themselves did the Kremlin no favors in the eyes of the American public.



The Americans and Brits may already have some plans in regards to winning hearts and minds of certain people in Eastern Europe, but thats just all rumor now, isn't it....??

As for Hollywood...again, I want to remind everyone, this is the late 1980's, the era that gave us movies like Red Dawn and Top Gun. America under Reagan has gotten a serious dose of patriotism, with "Let's Make America Great Again"....yes, Reagan coined that long before Trump did. And with the events of late, sure, it's bringing out the antiwar leftist factions, but nobody in Hollywood wants to be the next Hanoi Jane either. So anyone romanticizing the Communists, again after certain events that play out, are gonna be doing it in their bedrooms, not in Times Square.

As for that fellow you mentioned....oh please, I've barely heard of the man, he sounds like another idiot who wants to think he should get partial credit for ending the Cold War just like the man who directed "The Day After". The credit for ending the Cold War and the collapse of the Soviet Union goes to several personas and factors, but he's not one of them.
Regarding Vietnam and casualties-the American public is indeed sensitive to casualties.

Its one thing to see on the TV or in the papers-our boys are winning, its entirely different when there is no victory in sight and the body bags keep on coming.

By late 44/45 the American public was starting to lose heart, too.

I don't want to rag on America-but American resolve is not infinite, how will the American people handle 10,000 casualties a day? For months? The only thing similar was the civil war which was 120 years prior on American soil.

The US also has the inherent weakness that dissent is tolerated-moreso than in the Soviet Union. Add that with war weariness when dealing with casualties, and you have a recipe for unrest spreading quickly-if things don't go smoothly.

Anti war sentiment may just exist at first on the far left end of the political spectrum, but give three years of high end fighting-and the American public will start to waver.

Of course the Soviets may fall apart before that comes to a head.
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
The US also has the inherent weakness that dissent is tolerated-moreso than in the Soviet Union. Add that with war weariness when dealing with casualties, and you have a recipe for unrest spreading quickly-if things don't go smoothly.

Anti war sentiment may just exist at first on the far left end of the political spectrum, but give three years of high end fighting-and the American public will start to waver.

You know, on Navarro's other thread, I talked to him about Fallout Nuclear Metal, we talked about how so many people there were blaming Capitalism

Like EVERYTHING or MOST of EVERYTHING was the fault of the Anti-Communist Powers

Nevermind that China there actually was an active threat and attacking and conquering Alaska

There will be some sort of talk as if the USA and everybody else should "make peace" with the Communists and submit to their terms or that the Communists are just victims of "Western Imperialists"

They can believe this even with refugees fleeing from Communist rule saying how horrible it all is, even defecting KGB agents and spies wouldn't be believed by those people
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
Hi folks, apologies for not posting the next chapter up as quickly as planned, did a slight revision to how I wanted to write it out and should hopefully have it up within the next several days.

Also, as you may or may not know, I have been quite busy with real life issues in relation to the viral outbreak, I work at a hospital (I won't say which one) and am sort of on the frontlines of this. I'm fine, don't worry, my advice to everyone else is stay strong and hang tight, we have a road ahead but we'll get through it, remember those before us had a much tougher road, and as the events of this fictitious war will play out, it could have been MUCH worse.

The next chapter up will deal with a CIA op in Berlin with a character I'll be introducing that we'll be seeing more of in the future, along with an appearance from a much more well-known character. And then, another chapter detailing events in Iran which will further shape the eventual conflict, as well as another chapter with yet another character some of us may know as she finds herself witnessing the uglier side of history in the making, in the Balkans.

I also plan to do some slight revisions and maybe add a few more things to the equipment lists for the Americans, NATO and Western Allies, and Soviet/WARPAC/other Soviet-allied countries, after I did some additional research on a few things, just to make the "what-ifs" even more interesting. ;)

Also, I am internally debating bringing in a few characters that we might know from more "fantastical" genres, for lack of a better term, and how they might be reacting to the coming outbreak of the war and what they might be doing during that, but I think that depends on how the readers feel about it? Think World War 3 and Stranger Things, if that helps...?
 

Kujo

For the FEDCOM! For the Archon-Prince!
Looking forward to more, this story and "Clover Spear", thanks Tiamat for update!
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
This is a bit late to ask...but is anyone here well-versed in German? I used to know some...but it's fallen so far out of use now I barely know any of it. I have some German dialogue in the next installment, since it is in West Berlin...and I'm gonna assume Google translator is pretty damn horrid. :LOL:
 

Urabrask Revealed

Let them go.
Founder
This is a bit late to ask...but is anyone here well-versed in German? I used to know some...but it's fallen so far out of use now I barely know any of it. I have some German dialogue in the next installment, since it is in West Berlin...and I'm gonna assume Google translator is pretty damn horrid. :LOL:
I could help.
 
World War III: 1988, Addendum G: "The Legend of Wolfgang Meier""

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
While I'm working on the next part of the story (yes I know, delays, ugh), here's a bit to tide you over. It's a bit late for April Fool's, but what the hell. :p Wolfgang Meier is an actual person, btw, and pretty well known to anyone who was stationed or did maneuvers around Soltau-Luneberg during the Cold War.

***************************************************************************************


World War III: 1988
Addendum G: Wolfgang Meier, aka "The Bratty Man", Legend of the Cold War and WW3


To just about any British soldier of the BAOR in Northern Germany, or indeed any other NATO troops that did maneuvers in the same area, the name Wolfgang Meier was well known. However, Wolfgang Meier was not a soldier, spy, or politician of any sort. Wolfgang Meier was a humble, friendly yet successful food truck operator who started his business in the 1970's, and who went on to continue his food service when WW3 broke out, and miraculously, much to the relief and delight of many a NATO soldier, survived.

An enterprising German businessman who ran his own food truck, a blue Mercedes van dubbed "Wolfgang's Grill Shop", Wolfgang "The Bratty Man" could always be seen out in the field whenever British and NATO armies were out on maneuvers in the Soltau-Luneberg training area, selling hot fish and chips, hot sausages, currywurst und pommes frites, and other popular street food to many a hungry soldier who tired quickly of the standard military rations. Wolfgang was well-known and well-liked by the troops, and seemed to have an uncanny way of knowing wherever the British and NATO garrisons were holding their maneuvers. Indeed, there was many a Chieftain and later Challenger tank convoy that were surprised to see the well-known blue Mercedes van putter by before honking it's horn and coming to a stop, announcing it had hot, fresh and most importantly, NOT military-issued ration food for sale. It was then usually a race among many a vehicle crewman or soldier who could line up at the food truck first, much to the irritation of many a sergeant or officer. Wolfgang himself admitted years later he often knew where the NATO troops were on maneuvers by offering a friendly bribe in the form of cold German beer to many a thirsty vehicle crew.

However, the storm of war began to gather over Europe, and Wolfgang's uncanny knack of knowing the area and the routes around Northern Germany soon gained the interest of none other than the Soviets and East Germans. Several days prior to the outbreak of war, Wolfgang, who was still resolutely out selling his wares to troops in the area, found himself tailed while traveling to another site by several "gentlemen of odd repute" in a nondescript Volkswagen automobile. He found it odd at first, then was alarmed when the Volkswagen gained speed and one of it's occupants could be seen pulling out an AKS-74U carbine along with his companions. Thankfully, a British Challenger tank that had gotten left behind it's comrades after having to stop to fix an engine leak also happened to venture upon the scene, and when seeing the gunmen in the car, Opened fire with both of it's 7.62mm machine guns and shot the occupants to pieces. It was later determined the former occupants of the car had been a Soviet Spetsnaz team with orders to kidnap Wolfgang Meier and interrogate him for information on what he knew about the dispersion of British, American and West German troop in the area. Wolfgang for his part offered his gratitude to the crew of the British Challenger tank in the form of a free hot lunch with some cold beer.

Much to the dismay of family and friends, and even some soldiers, Wolfgang Meier continued to soldier on with his food truck when WW3 finally broke out. Wolfgang soon found himself with an increasingly diverse number of customers, in this case many of them American who had arrived when REFORGER was activated, and these soldiers also came to appreciate Wolfgang's hot wares. However, Wolfgang was still a "person of interest" to the Soviets and East Germans, and soon Wolfgang found himself keeping closer to the NATO troops, as he claimed it was for his own safety in spite of the often constant threat of Soviet and WARPA air, artillery, FROG-7 and SCUD missile attacks. Indeed, as the war was underway another attempt was made to kidnap Wolfgang, this time by an East German Fallschirmjager "Willi Sanger" fireteam who tried to creep upon Wolfgang and his wife as they were sleeping outside their truck one night. The team in question however had the bad luck of running afoul of the thermal sights of several new M-2A2 Bradley's attached to US V Corps that were in overwatch. The Bradleys in a slight case of overkill, proceeded to open up with their autocannons AND their machine guns, along with the American mechanized infantry that had been sleeping nearby and were jolted awake by the commotion, and proceeded to blaze their weapons into the now rather dismembered former East German paratrooper team as well. Afterwards, Wolfgang himself is reputed to have said, "I am grateful for the Americans, but they sometimes scare me all the same."

Wolfgang's status would become even more of a legend as the war progressed. In spite of the rationing of foodstuffs in West Germany, Wolfgang always had a ready supply of hot food for the troops, and it was rumored he had been given a special pass and license along with a steady supply from no less than the West German government, though German officials declined to comment. He would continue to feed the troops, occasionally coming under fire from air attacks, narrowly dodging several strafing runs from both SU-25 Frogfoot aircraft as well as MI-24 Hind gunships. He would also narrowly miss several artillery barrages, with several bits of shrapnel peppering his van, one piece in particular getting wedged in the cab front which he later kept as a conversation piece. It was said that Wolfgang was, to quote one unnamed British general, "bloody invincible or just plain damn lucky". Up to the end of the war, even as NATO turned the tide and pushed East, Wolfgang would often be seen tailing along with several trucks that would keep him supplied with food, forming a sort of "gypsy convoy".

Perhaps the most famous incident involving Wolfgang was when NATO had shifted the momentum and was pushing eastward into the Warsaw Pact region. Wolfgang and his aforementioned gypsy convoy, which in this case now had its own regular "unofficial escort" by way of several M2 Bradleys and upgunned HMMWV's, was trailing behind a thrust by elements of US V Corps and British I Corps into the DDR. They all had a surprise when a gaggle of bedraggled-looking NVA soldiers came out from a nearby forest, waving their hands. As the convoy came to a stop and the military escorts trained their weapons, the NVA soldiers made an instant beeline for Wolfgang's truck. The Americans shouted at the NVA troops to halt...until Wolfgang had an idea and came out with an armload of his own famous currywurst und pommes frites. The NVA soldiers practically kissed Wolfgang's hands and appeared to surrender to the food truck operator before they promptly devoured the food Wolfgang had offered to them, while the bemused Americans looked on. A CNN camera crew that had also been following the convoy that day caught the entire incident on video for the world to see of hungry, ragged NVA soldiers surrendering to a West German food vendor. It was later rumored that Erich Honecker upon seeing this himself nearly had a stroke.

When the war finally ended in 1989, Wolfgang, his wife and coworkers returned home, and while they continued their business, they became more involved in the reconstruction of a Germany that had been devastated by the war. However, he was given postwar citations by American, British, German and other troops thanking him for this morale contribution to the war effort. It has been said many a war-weary soldier was brought to tears and was given the strength to go another day when they were able to buy, or just as often barter for a steaming foil-wrapped serving of hot food from Wolfgang's van.

Today, the "Wolfgang's Grill Shop" Mercedes van, with several shrapnel and bullet hits, is on display at the NATO Memorial War Museum in Berlin. Wolfgang Meier himself and his wife now operate "Wolfgang's Pub and Grill" back in Soltau-Luneberg, and still get occasional visits from veterans of the Third Wold War who will chat and reminisce with him, and get a discount on beer. As for Wolfgang Meier himself, he chuckled when talking about the citations he received and replied that in retrospect "there was no need to thank me, I made a very good living from it!".
 
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CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
@Tiamat
Say, any chance that this guy ever accidentally got East Germans, Russians or other Commies to defect with his food?

Like, “This tastes better than the stuff from the food lines we get back home. We never had sausages so hot and fresh or with so many extra sauces.”
 

Trace Coburn

BattleTech Starfighter Analyst
Uh, Doomsought? As Tiamat notes at the opening of the piece, you should believe it — Wolfgang the Bratty Man was a real person, sadly deceased in the last half-decade IIRC, and a not-so-minor legend amongst most of the Tommies of BAOR. He did routinely bribe vehicle crews to learn where and when to go, then drive out into the middle of exercise areas to flog his wares to the lads, much to the vexation of the NCOs and officers who were trying to keep their squaddies focused on the serious business at hand.
He never got shot-at for real that I’ve ever heard of, and I don’t think Ivan ever quite got to the point of wanting to lift him for a chat, but he was an institution who existed exactly as described in peacetime, and God love him, I can see him carrying on exactly as narrated if the balloon had ever gone up.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
To those that are curious, you can read up a bit more on Wolfgang Meier here:


As for the abduction attempts by the Soviets and East Germans in the latest chapter, it would stand to reason IMO they would want as much intel as possible on the disposition of the NATO forces before the drive to the Rhine, and who better to kidnap than a civilian who knew the troops and the area, but would be considered more politically expedient (at least from their POV)? Thankfully as the British and also Americans proved, Wolfgang was anything but expedient. Never get between a soldier and his food, especially if it’s pogey bait. 😈

Carl did give me an idea though, I’ll be adding another snippet to the chapter later.
 
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Tiamat

I've seen the future...
And, here's the snippet I added:

"Perhaps the most famous incident involving Wolfgang was when NATO had shifted the momentum and was pushing eastward into the Warsaw Pact region. Wolfgang and his aforementioned gypsy convoy, which in this case now had its own regular "unofficial escort" by way of several M2 Bradleys and upgunned HMMWV's, was trailing behind a thrust by elements of US V Corps and British I Corps into the DDR. They all had a surprise when a gaggle of bedraggled-looking NVA soldiers came out from a nearby forest, waving their hands. As the convoy came to a stop and the military escorts trained their weapons, the NVA soldiers made an instant beeline for Wolfgang's truck. The Americans shouted at the NVA troops to halt...until Wolfgang had an idea and came out with an armload of his own famous currywurst und pommes frites. The NVA soldiers practically kissed Wolfgang's hands and appeared to surrender to the food truck operator before they promptly devoured the food Wolfgang had offered to them, while the bemused Americans looked on. A CNN camera crew that had also been following the convoy that day caught the entire incident on video for the world to see of hungry, ragged NVA soldiers surrendering to a West German food vendor. It was later rumored that Erich Honecker upon seeing this himself nearly had a stroke."
 

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