Alternate History World War III: 1988, aka "The War of '88"

CurtisLemay

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So what would be the music that helps define the "War of '88" and the preluding months leading up to it? (and has helped me revisit the 80's)


Some of my favorites:

"Eleanor Rigby" by the Beetles, an oldie, admittedly but quite melancholy and strangely fitting.

"Land of Confusion" by Genesis.

"People are People" by Depeche Mode

"Aces High" by Iron Maiden

"Master of Puppets" by Metallica

"Wild Side" by Motley Crue

"Everybody Wants to Rule the World" by Tears for Fears

"It's a Mistake" by Men at Work

"Blue Monday" by New Order....because the 80's isn't complete without it.


And yes, note I didn't add "99 Balloons"...I guess it would get a mention, but always thought it was overrated.

I'm just imaging an M1 Abrams tank gunner with the 11th ACR at the Fulda Gap having this on a cassette tape (remember those?), playing on the stereo he managed to fit inside the tank...right as it all goes down.

What, no Whitesnake's "Here I Go Again"

Also, just about anything by AC/DC, And yeah, I would also include "Russians" by Sting, "Bloody Sunday" by U2, and Asia's "Voice of America" and "Soul Survivor"
 

Sergeant Foley

Well-known member
That was the plan. She's gonna have her hands full though, with Communist rebels being armed and aided by "rumored" Soviet advisors, not to mention the Philippines possibly getting the occasional visit by Soviet AF and Navy. It's still housing several U.S. bases during this time, Subic Bay and Clark AFB among them, with possible chance of said bases also getting visited by saboteur attempts...
I havd some questions:
1.) Does ROK President Chun Doo-hwan serve out his term that ended on February 25, 1988 in this timeline like he did in real life?
2.) Assuming Chun's BFF Roh Tae-woo still wins the 1987 Presidential election due to Gorbachev assassination and rallying around the flag effect in ROK?
3.) How will Chilean President General Augusto Pinochet justify his 1988 plebiscite to remain in power by stating to the Chilean people: "What happened in Moscow serves as a reminder why you need me to keep the crazies away".
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
I havd some questions:
1.) Does ROK President Chun Doo-hwan serve out his term that ended on February 25, 1988 in this timeline like he did in real life?
2.) Assuming Chun's BFF Roh Tae-woo still wins the 1987 Presidential election due to Gorbachev assassination and rallying around the flag effect in ROK?
3.) How will Chilean President General Augusto Pinochet justify his 1988 plebiscite to remain in power by stating to the Chilean people: "What happened in Moscow serves as a reminder why you need me to keep the crazies away".


1: I am going to say, yes. The June Democracy Movement was in full swing around this time, don't forget, and the ROK's hosting of the 1988 Olympics is still set for this timeline. Of course, whether it actually happens is another question...


Neither Doo-hwan nor Tae-woo wanted violence to spill out on the streets with the democracy protests, particularly with everyone's eyes on the ROK in the lead up to the 1988 Olympics, it would have looked pretty bad to put it mildly, and the North Koreans would have a field day with the potential propaganda.


2: Tae-Woo still likely wins, but he has to face a serious balancing act now. On the one hand, he knows he needs to make the Democracy movement happy. On the other hand? Well, as it turns out, the Soviets know the Americans have significant forces in the ROK, Japan and the Philippines to deter the Norks (my favorite nickname for them, blame Curtislemay) and the Soviet's Pacific forces. A good way obviously to keep the Americans from shifting forces to Europe from the Pacific is to force the Americans to keep focused on the Pacific as well. So, what do the Soviets do...?

They begin, as mentioned in the "Night on the Town" chapter by launching the coup in Indonesia and potentially driving a wedge in the Pacific sea lanes between the Philippines and Australia and New Zealand, U.S. allies. And of course Indonesia has sights on Papua New Guineau (an Australia ally), and can provide numerous ports, coves, airbases etc. to rest, arm and refit the Soviet Pacific Navy and Air Forces, and potentially push out from Cam Ranh Bay in Vietnam. Suffice to say, Australia and New Zealand are upset to put it mildly and have reformed the ANZACs who are receiving tons of new equipment from the US and elsewhere (Austria and Italy, among them). But that's not enough...

The Soviets also begin making overtures to the Kims, and by Kims I don't mean just Kim Il-Sung and his batshit insane kids, the whole Kim "dynasty" runs North Korea. Kim Il-Sung notices the KPA's army as far as it's equipment goes is starting to get long in the tooth, while the US is working overtime to get both the US and ROK forces modernized ASAP. China wants to keep using the Norks to keep the Americans far from the Yalu river, but at the same time Deng Xiaoping is in charge whos more of a ruthless pragmatist and wants to keep the potential profit windfalls from trade between the US and China around this time going. In short, the Soviets make practical overtures in terms of new equipment to the Norks: Export T-72 tanks, new model export MI-24 Hind gunships, Mig-23 Flogger jets, SCUD launchers, artillery, etc. The Chinese are not at all happy about this, but what can they do? The Soviets can also provide oil to the Norks as well.

So what does this mean for Tae-Woo? Possibly the "June 29 Declaration" will either be more nuanced, or doesn't get declared at all. He has to make some overture to the Democracy movement though, to keep them placated, but has to rally around the ROK populace against what his generals are advising him is now likely a very real threat and not just posturing from the Norks. Not to mention the Norks have been up to all sorts of tomfoolery and were quite active in the 80's, not just with border incidents but all kinds of lunacy, the bombing of Korean Air Lines 858 in November 1987 in particular.





Needless to say, Korean Air Lines must have felt cursed considering the shootdown of KLA007 in 1983.




3. Don't give me ideas about Pinochet....that might actually happen. Especially now in this timeline with the Soviets looking, or rather trying to sweeten relations with the Bolivians, in spite of some stumbling blocks.


Bolivia and Chile have had rather spotty relations, thanks in no small part to the Atacama border dispute. If things were to head south (no pun intended) in 1988 and the US is stretched thin attempting to fight wars and crises on multiple fronts, someone might be tempted to settle the "Atacama question", no?
 
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Sergeant Foley

Well-known member
1: I am going to say, yes. The June Democracy Movement was in full swing around this time, don't forget, and the ROK's hosting of the 1988 Olympics is still set for this timeline. Of course, whether it actually happens is another question...


Neither Doo-hwan nor Tae-woo wanted violence to spill out on the streets with the democracy protests, particularly with everyone's eyes on the ROK in the lead up to the 1988 Olympics, it would have looked pretty bad to put it mildly, and the North Koreans would have a field day with the potential propaganda.


2: Tae-Woo still likely wins, but he has to face a serious balancing act now. On the one hand, he knows he needs to make the Democracy movement happy. On the other hand? Well, as it turns out, the Soviets know the Americans have significant forces in the ROK, Japan and the Philippines to deter the Norks (my favorite nickname for them, blame Curtislemay) and the Soviet's Pacific forces. A good way obviously to keep the Americans from shifting forces to Europe from the Pacific is to force the Americans to keep focused on the Pacific as well. So, what do the Soviets do...?

They begin, as mentioned in the "Night on the Town" chapter by launching the coup in Indonesia and potentially driving a wedge in the Pacific sea lanes between the Philippines and Australia and New Zealand, U.S. allies. And of course Indonesia has sights on Papua New Guineau (an Australia ally), and can provide numerous ports, coves, airbases etc. to rest, arm and refit the Soviet Pacific Navy and Air Forces, and potentially push out from Cam Ranh Bay in Vietnam. Suffice to say, Australia and New Zealand are upset to put it mildly and have reformed the ANZACs who are receiving tons of new equipment from the US and elsewhere (Austria and Italy, among them). But that's not enough...

The Soviets also begin making overtures to the Kims, and by Kims I don't mean just Kim Il-Sung and his batshit insane kids, the whole Kim "dynasty" runs North Korea. Kim Il-Sung notices the KPA's army as far as it's equipment goes is starting to get long in the tooth, while the US is working overtime to get both the US and ROK forces modernized ASAP. China wants to keep using the Norks to keep the Americans far from the Yalu river, but at the same time Deng Xiaoping is in charge whos more of a ruthless pragmatist and wants to keep the potential profit windfalls from trade between the US and China around this time going. In short, the Soviets make practical overtures in terms of new equipment to the Norks: Export T-72 tanks, new model export MI-24 Hind gunships, Mig-23 Flogger jets, SCUD launchers, artillery, etc. The Chinese are not at all happy about this, but what can they do? The Soviets can also provide oil to the Norks as well.

So what does this mean for Tae-Woo? Possibly the "June 29 Declaration" will either be more nuanced, or doesn't get declared at all. He has to make some overture to the Democracy movement though, to keep them placated, but has to rally around the ROK populace against what his generals are advising him is now likely a very real threat and not just posturing from the Norks. Not to mention the Norks have been up to all sorts of tomfoolery and were quite active in the 80's, not just with border incidents but all kinds of lunacy, the bombing of Korean Air Lines 858 in November 1987 in particular.





Needless to say, Korean Air Lines must have felt cursed considering the shootdown of KLA007 in 1983.




3. Don't give me ideas about Pinochet....that might actually happen. Especially now in this timeline with the Soviets looking, or rather trying to sweeten relations with the Bolivians, in spite of some stumbling blocks.


Bolivia and Chile have had rather spotty relations, thanks in no small part to the Atacama border dispute. If things were to head south (no pun intended) in 1988 and the US is stretched thin attempting to fight wars and crises on multiple fronts, someone might be tempted to settle the "Atacama question", no?
Those pesky Bolivians UGH 😡

What about South Africa?
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
Those pesky Bolivians UGH 😡

What about South Africa?


The South African Border Wars are still raging around this time.


Would there still be interest in pushing for something like the 1988 Triparte Accord in the original timeline? Maybe. South Africa had incurred a lot of casualties from the war that had been stretching on for years, yet at the same time the opposing Angolans, Namibians, backed by Cuban troops and Soviet hardware haven't done so well either. But with bigger fish to fry, the Americans and Soviets may be too busy to get further involved in the conflict, kind of leaving the main parties to fend for themselves. So, without a cease fire push by the two superpowers (Gorbachev IRL had wanted to wind down the conflict as part of reducing defense expenditures), but no major investment in the conflict either, it may just turn into another simmering bush war. The big question is what happens to the thousands of Cubans still in Africa, as Castro knows what's coming with the two big superpowers coming to a clash.

Speaking of the region, the Mozamibique Civil War is likely to rage on as well, with no end in sight. Then again, there's also the Western Sahara War. Kenyan-Ugandi border conflict. The LRA insurgency in the Central African Republic, Sudan, and the Congo. The Chadian Civil War, and the Somaliland War of Independence. Last but certainly not least, in this timeline, something nasty is said to be brewing between Libya and Egypt, though it obviously wouldn't be the first time either.

Sadly, Africa is likely to mostly remain the way it was in the 80's, if not worse when the proverbial balloon goes up. :(

I think the character Danny Archer in the movie Blood Diamond said it best. "This is Africa."

 

Sergeant Foley

Well-known member
The South African Border Wars are still raging around this time.


Would there still be interest in pushing for something like the 1988 Triparte Accord in the original timeline? Maybe. South Africa had incurred a lot of casualties from the war that had been stretching on for years, yet at the same time the opposing Angolans, Namibians, backed by Cuban troops and Soviet hardware haven't done so well either. But with bigger fish to fry, the Americans and Soviets may be too busy to get further involved in the conflict, kind of leaving the main parties to fend for themselves. So, without a cease fire push by the two superpowers (Gorbachev IRL had wanted to wind down the conflict as part of reducing defense expenditures), but no major investment in the conflict either, it may just turn into another simmering bush war. The big question is what happens to the thousands of Cubans still in Africa, as Castro knows what's coming with the two big superpowers coming to a clash.

Speaking of the region, the Mozamibique Civil War is likely to rage on as well, with no end in sight. Then again, there's also the Western Sahara War. Kenyan-Ugandi border conflict. The LRA insurgency in the Central African Republic, Sudan, and the Congo. The Chadian Civil War, and the Somaliland War of Independence. Last but certainly not least, in this timeline, something nasty is said to be brewing between Libya and Egypt, though it obviously wouldn't be the first time either.

Sadly, Africa is likely to mostly remain the way it was in the 80's, if not worse when the proverbial balloon goes up. :(

I think the character Danny Archer in the movie Blood Diamond said it best. "This is Africa."


Will Mandela still be released from prison? Will he also still win the Presidency in 1994 in this timeline like he did in real life?
 

Airedale260

Well-known member
@Tiamat : Quick note on Korean names, it's "surname first, given name last." Normally the two presidents in question are referred to as Chun and Roh, respectively.

As for the democracy movement, I'm not surprised; the dictatorship effectively ended in 1987 so while it's in the "transition" phase under Roh it's effectively opening up.

Will Mandela still be released from prison? Will he also still win the Presidency in 1994 in this timeline like he did in real life?

That...is an interesting question. It should also be noted that the Angolan Civil War is very much ongoing at this time (Cuba and the ANC are actively fighting, while the Eastern Bloc is still sending weapons). At this point, I would say "no" and in fact could see something going horribly wrong that results in an *increase* in repression in South Africa to keep it out of Communist hands.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
Will Mandela still be released from prison? Will he also still win the Presidency in 1994 in this timeline like he did in real life?

So many questions! All will be revealed...

@Tiamat How the MU pageant looks like:
*1986: Barbara Palacios (Venezuela)
*1987: Cecilia Bolocco (Chile)
*1988: Bui Simon (Thailand)

The Miss USA of 1988 was Courtney Gibbs. I may have her doing USO tours with Bob Hope, among other things.

@Tiamat : Quick note on Korean names, it's "surname first, given name last." Normally the two presidents in question are referred to as Chun and Roh, respectively.

As for the democracy movement, I'm not surprised; the dictatorship effectively ended in 1987 so while it's in the "transition" phase under Roh it's effectively opening up.



That...is an interesting question. It should also be noted that the Angolan Civil War is very much ongoing at this time (Cuba and the ANC are actively fighting, while the Eastern Bloc is still sending weapons). At this point, I would say "no" and in fact could see something going horribly wrong that results in an *increase* in repression in South Africa to keep it out of Communist hands.

Oh dear....I fear you may have given me an Evil Idea (TM). :devilish:
 

Sergeant Foley

Well-known member
So many questions! All will be revealed...



The Miss USA of 1988 was Courtney Gibbs. I may have her doing USO tours with Bob Hope, among other things.



Oh dear....I fear you may have given me an Evil Idea (TM). :devilish:
But Gibbs wouldn't win MU though in 1988.

I did enjoy that the 1988 MU pageant was held in Taipei, Taiwan 😃
 

Sergeant Foley

Well-known member
So many questions! All will be revealed...



The Miss USA of 1988 was Courtney Gibbs. I may have her doing USO tours with Bob Hope, among other things.



Oh dear....I fear you may have given me an Evil Idea (TM). :devilish:
Working on an India timeline of the 10.31.84 Incident and the ugly aftermath.

This week in Chapter 2: Personal PoV's from several of the co-conspirators and eyewitness accounts
 
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Sergeant Foley

Well-known member
On the Sports angle in all of the chaos:
(NFL)
1986: NY Giants
1987: Washington Redskins
1988: San Francisco 49ers
1989: San Francisco 49ers
1990: NY Giants
1991: Washington Redskins
1992: Dallas Cowboys
1993: Dallas Cowboys
1994: San Francisco 49ers
1995: Dallas Cowboys
1996: Green Bay Packers
1997: ????

(NBA)
1986: Boston Celtics
1987: Los Angeles Lakers
1988: Los Angeles Lakers
1989: Detroit Pistons
1990: Detroit Pistons
1991: Chicago Bulls
1992: Chicago Bulls
1993: Chicago Bulls
1994: Houston Rockets
1995: Houston Rockets
1996: Chicago Bulls
1997: Chicago Bulls
1998: Chicago Bulls
1999: San Antonio Spurs
2000: Los Angeles Lakers
2001: Los Angeles Lakers
2002: Los Angeles Lakers
2003: San Antonio Spurs
2004: Detroit Pistons
2005: San Antonio Spurs
2006: Miami Heat
2007: San Antonio Spurs
2008: Boston Celtics
2009: Los Angeles Lakers
2010: Los Angeles Lakers
2011: Dallas Mavericks
2012: Miami Heat
2013: Miami Heat
2014: San Antonio Spurs
2015: Golden State Warriors
2016: Cleveland Cavaliers
2017: Golden State Warriors
2018: Golden State Warriors
2019: Toronto Raptors
2020: Los Angeles Lakers
2021: Milwaukee Bucks
 
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Sergeant Foley

Well-known member
Sports angle: Part III
(CFB)
1986: Penn State Nittany Lions
1987: Miami Hurricanes
1988: ??????(although I would love to see the Canes NOT getting screwed in their game in South Bend, so that they might have a chance of repeating as national champions before Jimmy Johnson goes coaching the Dallas Cowboys in 1989)

As for my Longhorns: they imploded once they choked in the 1983 Cotton Bowl Classic against Georgia which resulted in the downfall of Fred Akers
 

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