"Woke" Franchises

[Cyan Saiyajin]

I don't remember seeing those Communist Dystopias that often, usually I think they just make fun of or use for "satire" whatever/whoever they can somehow lump in with Right-Wing Stereotypes.

I was thinking of more conservative leaning science fiction like the works of Kratman, John Ringo, David Weber, and Steve White.

I'm not going to say that it was an equal spread by any means, but as far as my caring about social-political themes in stories are I couldn't of cared less who your bad guys were. Still don't for the most part.

They managed to make that Left-Right Paradigm sorta unquestioned even before the Post-SJW-era

On that we agree. If anything I feel they are weaker now just because its more questioned then it was. There was a time in the 90s earlier 2000s were the Left was the unquestionable sane party, and every bad example of conservatives was blasted all over the nation.

Depends. Did you like any of the Red Sonja stories when she wasn't in a chainmail bikini that barely covered any skin? How about Howard's original Red Sonya, from his historic fiction who wore practical period garb, as I recall?

You know I can't help but notice the disconnect in your argument, on one hand you're quite rational in pointing out that personal foibles or style of artists is an issue independent of social political leanings, but then you seem to be implying that CarlManvers only likes Red Sonja because she is sexy and in a metal bikini. It strikes me as being rather bias yourself in your reasoning.

 

[Big Steve]

You know I can't help but notice the disconnect in your argument, on one hand you're quite rational in pointing out that personal foibles or style of artists is an issue independent of social political leanings, but then you seem to be implying that CarlManvers only likes Red Sonja because she is sexy and in a metal bikini. It strikes me as being rather bias yourself in your reasoning.

I admit to some sarcasm because I've always disliked that suit (and I greatly preferred a run in Dynamite where, IIRC, she didn't wear it). At the same time I accept the point that I seemed to be implying that, and will clarify that I'm not accusing him of such, I was just making something of a point that guys liking Red Sonja isn't necessarily going to be because she's a strong female character, some will do it for the eye candy.

(As an aside, I'm still bemused by a Spider-Man/Red Sonja crossover in the aughts that was basically Red Sonja's spirit/essence possessing Mary Jane Parker's body. Poor Spidey had a bit of awkwardness through that story.)

 

[Cyan Saiyajin]

I admit to some sarcasm because I've always disliked that suit (and I greatly preferred a run in Dynamite where, IIRC, she didn't wear it). At the same time I accept the point that I seemed to be implying that, and will clarify that I'm not accusing him of such, I was just making something of a point that guys liking Red Sonja isn't necessarily going to be because she's a strong female character, some will do it for the eye candy.

Fair enough assessment, as fair as saying some people probably did draw formerly sexy characters non-sexy and "butch" as a social political statement. So I don't see the original issue you took with it.

 

[Captain X]

Funny thing is that I actually like the short-haired look on women, and I tend to also like the more fit and toned look on 'em, too.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Make her hair long again and I much prefer the costume to the right for Carol.

Will grant you She-Hulk, although that might also be artists wanting to make her look more brutalist in pictures. Batgirl just gets kinda trimmed down to waif. Which is not a new look for her.

....I actually vastly prefer the second costume there for Spider-Woman than the old skin-tight body-hugger. It looks more functional and almost secret agent-y. And given her history, that really fits.

I mean, sometimes this stuff is just a case of artists' personal foibles or style. Consider, say, how Bruce Timm is known for drawing characters versus Jim Lee or Michael Turner.

Depends. Did you like any of the Red Sonja stories when she wasn't in a chainmail bikini that barely covered any skin? How about Howard's original Red Sonya, from his historic fiction who wore practical period garb, as I recall

....if you're talking about the titular character, he's a child. And over the series he goes from pudgy to stocky to normal build since he starts training. (Plus there's that whole thing about being half-alien living gemstone).

Read both original Ms Marvel series, it was surprisingly in-character for her to wear it, for an ex-airforce lady she was surprisingly feminine and sexual.....I am still weirded out by how she got into relationships with guys quick and had sex with them all, Not sure what happened to her relationship with Simon/Wonder Man afterwards.....I ship them

Spoiler: Boobs Became Pecs

I'm referring more to the modest cheap hipster look, the rest of the bat family does bodysuits, and I'm a dude and I find THAT sight much better than whatever she's wearing

Your choice, I prefer the spandex to this realistic MCU stuff

I consider Red Sonya to be a separate character, also she didn't look enough of a dude or wear armour that was androgynous-masculine enough to be a turn off. There's something about the sort of victorian military tight-pants lady look I like.....due to hentai

Oh, right a kid

 

[CarlManvers2019]

On that we agree. If anything I feel they are weaker now just because its more questioned then it was. There was a time in the 90s earlier 2000s were the Left was the unquestionable sane party, and every bad example of conservatives was blasted all over the nation.

I think it's "Cultural Inertia" or something else that maybe the reason why so many are having a hard time accepting that their side is now the one full of crazies and it's not simply "Just as bad" as an excuse, when there are Lefties and Moderates and Libertarians defecting or voting Right and having different views and stances and even more reasonableness than the ones 0f the 90s and earlier 2000s

Do you think those same Racist Christian Far-Right Fundamentalist types would be using PePe The Frog/KEK or trolling people?

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Funny thing is that I actually like the short-haired look on women, and I tend to also like the more fit and toned look on 'em, too.

That sort of short-hair is not dude-like enough

Ruby Rose from RWBY didn't look like a dude just cause her hair was short

There's specific haircuts, more-or-less for the butch look and I'm guessing that lady's wearing a dress or isn't wearing clothes that are a size bigger or "androgynous" like Soulsborne characters

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

I admit to some sarcasm because I've always disliked that suit (and I greatly preferred a run in Dynamite where, IIRC, she didn't wear it). At the same time I accept the point that I seemed to be implying that, and will clarify that I'm not accusing him of such, I was just making something of a point that guys liking Red Sonja isn't necessarily going to be because she's a strong female character, some will do it for the eye candy.

(As an aside, I'm still bemused by a Spider-Man/Red Sonja crossover in the aughts that was basically Red Sonja's spirit/essence possessing Mary Jane Parker's body. Poor Spidey had a bit of awkwardness through that story.)

Here's the thing. Conan slept with a thousand big tittied women, but who can name one them?

The fact that Sonja is intriguing to men and stands out from the legion of other women probably has to do with how she's different from them, not how shes the same.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Here's the thing. Conan slept with a thousand big tittied women, but who can name one them?

The fact that Sonja is intriguing to men and stands out from the legion of other women probably has to do with how she's different from them, not how shes the same.

Intriguing in that she looks like a stripper but is also a Badass who can cut through loads of people?

I don't just want eye-candy, I want eye-candy that can kick my ass

Anybody else watching Senki Zesshou Symphogear XV? Because that's one of my examples of eye-candy that kicks ass while being eye-candy

No one here just wants a Stepford Wife or a Prostitute or Stripper who can't fight or do much besides look pretty

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

Intriguing in that she looks like a stripper but is also a Badass who can cut through loads of people?

I don't just want eye-candy, I want eye-candy that can kick my ass

Anybody else watching Senki Zesshou Symphogear XV? Because that's one of my examples of eye-candy that kicks ass while being eye-candy

No one here just wants a Stepford Wife or a Prostitute or Stripper who can't fight or do much besides look pretty

I'll do a longer post on This later but...

Men want all kinds of women. Sometimes, often, the same man will find diametrically opposed women attractive.

Men like Amazons, and stepford wives, they like pixies and thick women, they like whores and conservative women, they like familiar women and exotic women, not every man likes every kind of woman but most men like at least some conflicting types.

And it's not a lack of caring about those traits that make men like them. The same man will like a shy soft maiden and a big tough amazon that acts like a dude, and parodoxically tell you that it's those particular features they find appealing.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

I'll do a longer post on This later but...

Men want all kinds of women. Sometimes, often, the same man will find diametrically opposed women attractive.

Men like Amazons, and stepford wives, they like pixies and thick women, they like whores and conservative women, they like familiar women and exotic women, not every man likes every kind of woman but most men like at least some conflicting types.

And it's not a lack of caring about those traits that make men like them. The same man will like a shy soft maiden and a big tough amazon that acts like a dude, and parodoxically tell you that it's those particular features they find appealing.

Okay, that said anybody who JUST likes the "whores" and "conservative/stepfords" and "shy soft maiden" without them having much complexity or ability to argue back looks to me to be sort of close to the negative stereotypes regarding men

That said, I do like the idea of "Silk Hiding Steel" or a really sexual woman having both strength and intelligence or awareness/ Mostly because the contradiction and both have things I like.

Man I doubt they can WOKE-ify Monster Girl Encyclopedia

 

[Cyan Saiyajin]

It's also how those qualities are portrayed that's the kicker. Princess Peach is the example many woke schools go after but lots of people like her and the thing is she is portrayed as a person. She is generous, kind, and does occasionally kick ass. If characters are treated more than simply over exaggerated caricatures of sterotypes than they can be positive models even if they embrace some sterotypes.

Same thing with "whores" or any other character that plays on a sterotype. In fact the most obvious example of "whore" would be Panty from Panty and Stockings. See is definitely playing into the sterotype, but not in a demeaning way.

Edit: Also that picture isn't short hair, Jadzia never had short hair, she has it in a beehive and that image is cropped.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

It's also how those qualities are portrayed that's the kicker. Princess Peach is the example many woke schools go after but lots of people like her and the thing is she is portrayed as a person. She is generous, kind, and does occasionally kick ass. If characters are treated more than simply over exaggerated caricatures of sterotypes than they can be positive models even if they embrace some sterotypes.

Same thing with "whores" or any other character that plays on a sterotype. In fact the most obvious example of "whore" would be Panty from Panty and Stockings. See is definitely playing into the sterotype, but not in a demeaning way.

Edit: Also that picture isn't short hair, Jadzia never had short hair, she has it in a beehive and that image is cropped.

I think the WOKE crowd likes going on about how essentially those characters may ONLY be those over exaggerated stereotypes, NOT a mix of things

Or even if they do know, they’re good at redirecting thought and making people think of “improvements”

Pantyhose and heels and a real short one piece.....I think its time for someone to accuse the man who made Star Trek as being a horrible bigot even when I’m pretty sure the original Star Trek had a pretty diverse cast

 

[Captain X]

Edit: Also that picture isn't short hair, Jadzia never had short hair, she has it in a beehive and that image is cropped.

Yeah, I'm using it as a reaction, not as a reference.

 

[LTR]

This is basically a repost of what I said in response to this video being posted elsewhere but... oh well. My opinions haven't changed as much.

I'm five minutes in and he brings up a lot of examples of male characters apparently being replaced by female characters and using examples like Ghostbusters 2016, and Moana, and Logan and Mad Max Fury Road and uhhh even Gravity. And that it's not just replacing male characters, but apparently emasculating then and seeing the feminine "rise above" the masculine characters like in the ending of Mad Max apparently. Then he contrasts this with the widely ranged female characters like Galadriel in Lord of the Rings and the girl in Spirited Away and I am not being convinced of what his point is. I mean I get his idea is that there is a pattern of replacement as opposed to wholly male and female characters... but... I don't see how Moana even has a theme of masculine replacement or Moana taking on masculine traits or denial of her female traits.

With Furiosa in Mad Max, yes... she can fight and has authority and is an action girl, but Mad Max also beat her up in the film, nub punches notwithstanding. The reason she ascended isn't because of themes of female superiority over males but because the previous despot was an asshole and Mad Max isn't ruling material. He literally leaves wherever he was engaged in heroics in EVERY FILM. The only difference between this film and Beyond Thunderdome is the Tina Turner wasn't nub punching people into submission. She was just kinda there.

So it's not a female authority thing, it seems to be a very... long video that is exasperated with the idea of females in action roles. I mean I don't know how masculine Sandra Bullocks' astronaut character was in Gravity since i never saw that movie but I'm assuming she wasn't punching out Martians... or Matt Damon.

Then seven minutes in... he just loses me. There's a sniper scene in Wonder Woman (which I honestly forgot about) and he states that the sniper in the tower is a symbol of tyrannical masculine power and thus when one of the supporting Wonder Woman characters fails to take a shot at the man in the tower its a Freudian sign of male impotence.

...

Anyways long story short, now I'm eight minutes in, apparently the elevation scene in Mad Max: Fury Road and the Wonder Woman Church Tower Sniper scene are also symbols of males lifting up women to the ascent of power... and when Wonder Woman stands over the rubble of the village, it's a microcosm of the world at large and that the rubble represents Christianity and masculinity and tradition and she smashes this tyrannical symbol of masculinity... to the praise of the villagers.

Buhhh I'm sorry... I am clearly not intelligent enough to watch movies on the level he's at. He pretty much tells the view that nine and a half minutes in by stating that we don't see the patterns like he has. It's clear I don't view the world as symbolic patterns like he does.

As the great (though admittedly I've never read any of his works

) Jim Butcher once said (though this was in regards to the Sad Puppies campaign):

I don’t know that, because I can’t read her freaking mind.

And neither, presumably, can anyone else.

I work with words professionally. I know exactly how powerful they can be. I am also well aware of their limits–and when it comes to expression complex thoughts in emotionally tense situations over the goddamned internet, the magic of written language has little power.

How can it? It’s missing too much. You can’t read tone of voice, or the expression on a person’s face when they’re making keys click. Pretty much all you get is “clickity click click.”

I’m also an English major. So I’m very aware of how skilled human beings can be at reading all kinds of absolute horse manure into other people’s writing, and then declaring it “subtext” or “internally consistent logic.”

But it isn’t. It’s you, guessing. And your guess is probably prejudiced to one degree or another, most often by projecting things into it that were never meant to be there. Or, put another way:

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/what-the-author-meant.jpg

I don’t know.

Neither do you. That’s kind of my point.

Looks like this Youtubers entire thing is exploring symbolism in films, so I'm sure he's seeing lots of patterns there... but on this video alone... it just seems like a lot of stretching. Yes... females are more prevalent in action movies and media now. I'd prefer to take it on a case by case basis then exploring patterns of symbology. That's what ivory tower liberals do.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Who’s being replaced in Logan? Him and X-23 are different people and there’s no going on about a “legacy” of sorts like they do for the comics

Sad Puppies? Isn’t that to do with the Conservative writer Larry Correia, not sure about Jim’s politics but I think he maybe pissing off part of the SJW or Far Left crowd or even the Writing Community that Correia disassociates with, by virtue of writing stuff in the latter’s verse

Ivory Tower Liberals and the sort of “nerds” who want to make themselves and the stuff they enjoy sound real smart in hopes of looking like “grownups”

 

[Husky_Khan]

I would agree that The Last Jedi was partially ruined by SJW'isms but even without them, it would've still been a pretty bad movie thanks to all of the fake subversion nonsense and uninspired sets and horrible all around plot and leaps of logic and the like.

Some social justice rich media can be decent even if sprinkled with eye rolling cringe, like with the Supergirl TV series but I would agree that it is infiltrating things though it seems more occasional cringe then infusing the whole franchise with it like it did with Episode VIII. Like that random scene with all of the female heroines showing up to protect Captain Marvel when she snagged the gauntlet in the final battle of Avengers: Endgame. I've actually missed out on a lot of the tokenism and social justice flavored writing that has polluted Marvel Comics since I never really got into them, and simply declined to watch movies like the Ghostbusters remake, mainly because I wasn't interested in Ghostbusters as a franchise as a whole. Same with Dr. Who.

How did James Bond get SJW'd though? Is this over the new Black James Bond or something?

 

[Deleted member]

The next James Bond is really going to be black?

 

[Lanmandragon]

The next James Bond is really going to be black?

A broad I think actually. Not sure on that though

 

[Deleted member]

A broad I think actually. Not sure on that though

At least with Dr. Who you can make it plausible. That would just be blatant.