WI: U.S. remains an industrial powerhouse

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
I think the Tobin Tax is an excellent way to do that.
That wouldn't work from where I'm sitting, especially since what I said took place in OTL.
OK. I'll need to look it up and read about it more. That said, though, what else could help here, other than someone like Pat Buchanan winning the US Presidency in 1992 or at least much earlier than 2016?
None, unless you've got someone as charismatic as Theodore 'Bull Moose' Roosevelt that built a party from the ground up for a better part of the decade.

That's a rub for the various 'third party' groups in the US (outside of their general 'cray-cray with extra cray' mentality that practically all of them have).

@History Learner, your linked paper on automation not killing jobs is quite... um... faulty, largely from what I gleaned from it being 'ignores the technological context completely despite the fact that it determines practically everything historically', and thus follows an orthodoxy that doesn't work.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
That wouldn't work from where I'm sitting, especially since what I said took place in OTL.

What took place IOTL and why wouldn't it work? The only place I know of that tried a Tobin Tax-Europe-did not see mass deindustrialization. For most of the EU, they held steady or even gained in industrial employment.

your linked paper on automation not killing jobs is quite... um... faulty, largely from what I gleaned from it being 'ignores the technological context completely despite the fact that it determines practically everything historically', and thus follows an orthodoxy that doesn't work.

Which paper, there's three alone in the OP and I have several more? The argument concerning automation killing jobs ignores the context entirely of the arguments made; U.S. corporations have used increasing automation to keep output level but reduce workforces. In previous decades, they used productivity gains to increase output instead of keeping it steady, which meant you saw employment gains rather than decreases. This is, of course, ignoring the fact there's evidence to suggest the problem isn't even necessarily that and absolves automation entirely:

Between 2000 and 2016, the average growth in the sector’s real output was only about 63% of that of the private sector. But when you take out computers out of both data series, the trend is far more striking: Since 2000, manufacturing output expanded at an average pace equal to only 12% of the private sector’s average growth.​
In fact, according to Houseman’s data, without computers, manufacturing’s real output expanded at an average rate of only about 0.2% a year in the 2000s. By 2016, real manufacturing output, sans computers, was lower than it was in 2007.​
This has grim implications for what had been assumed to be healthy productivity. As with real output, productivity growth comes mostly from the computers subsector’s quality adjustment—which means that the apparently robust growth in manufacturing productivity is mostly a mirage.​
To be clear, automation did happen in manufacturing. However, throughout the 2000s, the industry was automating at about the same pace as in the rest of the private sector. And if booming robot-led productivity growth wasn’t displacing factory workers, then the sweeping scale of job losses in manufacturing necessarily stemmed from something else entirely.
It’s not perfectly clear what, exactly, is the culprit behind relatively anemic growth in manufacturing output. But the signs indicate trade and globalization played a much more significant role than is commonly recognized.​
Of particular importance is China’s emergence as a major exporter, which US leaders encouraged. A pair of papers by economists David Autor, David Dorn, and Gordon Hanson, found that the parts of the US hit hard by Chinese import competition saw manufacturing job loss, falling wages, and the shrinking of their workforces. They also found that offsetting employment gains in other industries never materialized.​
Another important paper by this team of economists, along with MIT’s Daron Acemoglu and Brendan Price, estimated that competition from Chinese imports cost the US as many as 2.4 million jobs between 1999 and 2011.​
Why did China have such a big impact? In their 2016 study, economists Justin Pierce and Peter Schott argue that China’s accession to the WTO in 2001—set in motion by president Bill Clinton—sparked a sharp drop in US manufacturing employment. That’s because when China joined the WTO, it extinguished the risk that the US might retaliate against the Chinese government’s mercantilist currency and protectionist industrial policies by raising tariffs. International companies that set up shop in China therefore enjoyed the benefits of cheap labor, as well as a huge competitive edge from the Chinese government’s artificial cheapening of the yuan.​
The resulting appreciation of the dollar hurt US exporters—in particular, manufacturers. A 2017 study on the dollar’s appreciation in the early 2000s by economist Douglas Campbell found that the dollar strengthened sharply, in real terms, compared to low-wage trading partners including China. The subsequent increase in foreign imports and diminished demand for American exports resulted in a loss of around 1.5 million manufacturing jobs between 1995 and 2008.​
There are also observable signs that automation wasn’t to blame. Consider the shuttering of some 78,000 manufacturing plants between 2000 and 2014, a 22% drop. This is odd given that robots, like humans, have to work somewhere. Then there’s the fact that there simply aren’t that many robots in US factories, compared with other advanced economies.
Two decades of ill-founded policymaking radically restructured the US economy, and reshuffled the social order too. The America that resulted is more unequal and more polarized than it’s been in decades, if not nearly a century.​
In effect, US policymakers put diplomacy before industrial development at home, offering the massive American consumer market as a carrot to encourage other countries to open up their economies to multinational investment. Then, thanks to the popular narrative that automation was responsible for job losses in manufacturing, American leaders tended to dismiss the threat of foreign competition to a thriving manufacturing industry and minimize its importance to the overall health of the US economy.​
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
@History Learner, I've done enough research to tell me what you are saying is surprisingly false (though, to be honest, I haven't bookmarked said research).

You can't save industrial-focused economies. You just can't. You constantly forget that automation has been a thing since the 2nd Industrial Revolution (i.e. the one that popular history dubs the Industrial Revolution), it's just that by the 1970s automation managed to take humans (mostly) out of the equation via computers and electronics.

Any real attempt to keep an unautomated economy is doomed to fail, much like how China has failed to do so.

Any tax you put in? Well, most companies will only tack it onto the price tag of the goods or services. Europe (and Japan) didn't retain its industrial base, it had to rebuild it... and rebuild it to a more automated standard.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
@History Learner, I've done enough research to tell me what you are saying is surprisingly false (though, to be honest, I haven't bookmarked said research).

You can't save industrial-focused economies. You just can't. You constantly forget that automation has been a thing since the 2nd Industrial Revolution (i.e. the one that popular history dubs the Industrial Revolution), it's just that by the 1970s automation managed to take humans (mostly) out of the equation via computers and electronics.

Any real attempt to keep an unautomated economy is doomed to fail, much like how China has failed to do so.

Any tax you put in? Well, most companies will only tack it onto the price tag of the goods or services. Europe (and Japan) didn't retain its industrial base, it had to rebuild it... and rebuild it to a more automated standard.
That isn't correct. The bigger issue has always been outsourcing; automation does not cause the collapse of an industrial economy. It is policy decisions by the government, like giving tax breaks for outsourcing factories and disadvantageous trade deals, that cause deindustrialization. Financializing the economy is great for the ruling class, as they can simply live off of investments and accumulate more and more capital while the rest of the economy stagnates.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
That isn't correct. The bigger issue has always been outsourcing; automation does not cause the collapse of an industrial economy. It is policy decisions by the government, like giving tax breaks for outsourcing factories and disadvantageous trade deals, that cause deindustrialization. Financializing the economy is great for the ruling class, as they can simply live off of investments and accumulate more and more capital while the rest of the economy stagnates.
The tax breaks won't work, I'm afraid, as it is always the workers that forced the change. Also, automation did collapse the industrial area of the economy, you just don't want to believe it. The 2nd Industrial Revolution caused the collapse of the artisan job sector, just by virtue of (very crude) automation. Whatever wasn't sent overseas (and, let's be honest here, that was going to happen anyways) was automated to hell and back.

You're thinking of an orthodoxy that refuses to see reality when the reality is far different.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
The tax breaks won't work, I'm afraid, as it is always the workers that forced the change. Also, automation did collapse the industrial area of the economy, you just don't want to believe it. The 2nd Industrial Revolution caused the collapse of the artisan job sector, just by virtue of (very crude) automation. Whatever wasn't sent overseas (and, let's be honest here, that was going to happen anyways) was automated to hell and back.

You're thinking of an orthodoxy that refuses to see reality when the reality is far different.
I've provided sources that disprove your claims, you've meanwhile provided no sources, just opinions. Of the two of us you're the one unwilling to accept reality. What was sent overseas was not inevitable, it was government policy that created the chance for it even being possible.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
@History Learner, I've done enough research to tell me what you are saying is surprisingly false (though, to be honest, I haven't bookmarked said research).

You can't save industrial-focused economies. You just can't. You constantly forget that automation has been a thing since the 2nd Industrial Revolution (i.e. the one that popular history dubs the Industrial Revolution), it's just that by the 1970s automation managed to take humans (mostly) out of the equation via computers and electronics.

Any real attempt to keep an unautomated economy is doomed to fail, much like how China has failed to do so.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but without counter-evidence, it amounts to a "just trust me bro" style of argument. There is no evidence you can't save industrial focused economies, and in fact multiple real world examples of exactly this being done. Germany, the Netherlands, and Norway-which are high wage just like the United States-have stable or increasing manufacturing output as a share of GDP as Cass notes. Yet, Germany has 300 industrial robots per 10,000 workers while the U.S. has 200; the former is stable while the latter saw mass deindustrialization. That doesn't make sense with the orthodoxy you are proposing.

Nevermind the fact that, from the start of the Second Industrial Revolution in the 19th Century until extremely recently the trend was ever growing industrial employment. If automation prevents that, why didn't we see a crisis of unemployment until the last three decades? We did, however, see a crisis of outsourcing.

Any tax you put in? Well, most companies will only tack it onto the price tag of the goods or services. Europe (and Japan) didn't retain its industrial base, it had to rebuild it... and rebuild it to a more automated standard.

And they became or stayed the same level of industrial output as % of GDP along with relatively steady or increasing rates of industrial employment, which again discredits the idea automation must automatically kill jobs.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
I'm not trying to be a dick, but without counter-evidence, it amounts to a "just trust me bro" style of argument. There is no evidence you can't save industrial focused economies, and in fact multiple real world examples of exactly this being done. Germany, the Netherlands, and Norway-which are high wage just like the United States-have stable or increasing manufacturing output as a share of GDP as Cass notes. Yet, Germany has 300 industrial robots per 10,000 workers while the U.S. has 200; the former is stable while the latter saw mass deindustrialization. That doesn't make sense with the orthodoxy you are proposing.

Nevermind the fact that, from the start of the Second Industrial Revolution in the 19th Century until extremely recently the trend was ever growing industrial employment. If automation prevents that, why didn't we see a crisis of unemployment until the last three decades? We did, however, see a crisis of outsourcing.



And they became or stayed the same level of industrial output as % of GDP along with relatively steady or increasing rates of industrial employment, which again discredits the idea automation must automatically kill jobs.

Could it be possible that corporate pressure to outsource was greater in the US than in Western Europe? I know that Western European countries generally tend to be more compassionate towards their workers, with more generous social safety net in comparison to those in the US.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Could it be possible that corporate pressure to outsource was greater in the US than in Western Europe? I know that Western European countries generally tend to be more compassionate towards their workers, with more generous social safety net in comparison to those in the US.
Though you didn't ask me specifically, yes though it depends on what you mean by 'western Europe'. Britain was the original outsourcer/financialized economy, so they really led the trend and have been as bad as the US. They have their own rust belt. France was trending in that direction pre-WW1, but the wars forced industrialization and they have avoided going backwards AFAIK.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
Could it be possible that corporate pressure to outsource was greater in the US than in Western Europe? I know that Western European countries generally tend to be more compassionate towards their workers, with more generous social safety net in comparison to those in the US.

I would say yes without question, and a good example in this regard is how the Netherlands is a more unequal economy than the United States, but has nowhere near the same amount of economies issues we do.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
What's your source for the Netherlands being more unequal than the US is? Because its GINI Index appears to be lower:


Here you go:

The Netherlands is often credited as some of the most modern and forward-thinking economies in the world. In fact, many of the progressive policies like high tax rates and high government spending that are being proposed to the U.S. government have been commonplace in the Netherlands for decades. As of 2021, the Netherlands’ income tax could reach up to 49.5%. Some characteristics and offerings of the Netherlands ’ economy include low unemployment, a strong social security system, a universal healthcare system, robust retirement pensions, and allowances for maternity leave. This is why the Dutch economy is regarded by many as a “liberal paradise”. The interesting thing is that despite all their progressive policies, the Netherlands has the worst wealth inequality in the world with a Gini Coefficient of 0.902. To better visualize this, consider the fact that the top 10% controls 60% of net wealth in all of the Netherlands. So how did this shocking reality come to be?​
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Here you go:

The Netherlands is often credited as some of the most modern and forward-thinking economies in the world. In fact, many of the progressive policies like high tax rates and high government spending that are being proposed to the U.S. government have been commonplace in the Netherlands for decades. As of 2021, the Netherlands’ income tax could reach up to 49.5%. Some characteristics and offerings of the Netherlands ’ economy include low unemployment, a strong social security system, a universal healthcare system, robust retirement pensions, and allowances for maternity leave. This is why the Dutch economy is regarded by many as a “liberal paradise”. The interesting thing is that despite all their progressive policies, the Netherlands has the worst wealth inequality in the world with a Gini Coefficient of 0.902. To better visualize this, consider the fact that the top 10% controls 60% of net wealth in all of the Netherlands. So how did this shocking reality come to be?​

Thanks; will take a look! I'm shocked, honestly!
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top