WI: Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War succeeds

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
From my understanding of it, the failure of this intervention was mainly due to lack of support due to war weariness, and the lack of cooperation among the many participants. It's a little hard to blame people in other countries for not wanting to get tangled up in yet another war, especially in what looked like an entirely internal Russian affair, as it's not like they knew what horrors communism would unleash, as the only real example of it at the time was the recent execution of the Tsar and his family. This makes it a little difficult to determine how things needed to be different in order for this intervention to succeed, other than for the forces present to cooperate more cohesively, with well-defined objectives.

The second part of this, then, is how things turn out differently once the intervention is successful. Is a new Tsar seated, and if so, who? Does the desire to maintain the monarchy effect the US's role in this intervention and/or in organizing the country afterwards. It bears remembering that there had been a previous revolution in 1905, which basically ended with an agreement to form the lower house Duma in order to give common people a voice in government, and which Nicolas II didn't even remotely take seriously. For everything that happened, he refused to accept any kind of limits on his autocracy, and this ultimately doomed him and his family. Does his successor learn from this, or do they continue the tradition of completely autocratic rule and face possible revolutions in the future? Provided they avoid these revolutions (say by modeling themselves after the United Kingdom's government or by becoming a republic), how does this effect the rise of the Nazis and the start of WWII? While communism would undoubtedly still exist in some form, it would not be the big boogeyman that the Soviet Union represented at that time, which might make the Nazi Party fail to really get off the ground. Might. What do people think?
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
AFAIK, the Whites in the RCW were NOT universally monarchists; so, I don't think that one can actually take it for granted that the Russian monarchy would actually be restored if the Whites will win the RCW. We could instead see a Weimar-style democracy emerging in Russia only to eventually be replaced by some kind of right-wing dictatorship, possibly even a totalitarian one.
 

Circle of Willis

Well-known member
^ That's correct - although there were certainly many monarchists in their ranks by default, the Whites were not universally monarchists. A lot of them were Social-Revolutionaries, Kadets and other democrats displaced by the Bolshevik coup we now know as the October Revolution, and several of the key White leaders (Lavr Kornilov, who worked closely with the Provisional Government until his chaotic maybe-coup in August of 1917 and seems to have favored an apolitical military dictatorship, comes to mind) were opposed to the Tsar. The most extreme absolute monarchists, the Black Hundreds, had lost a lot of credibility by this point.

The Russian succession is also muddled at this point: in general practically nobody wanted the specific original Tsar, Nicholas II, back since his reign had been rather disastrous to put it mildly, constantly battered by tragedy and failure literally from his coronation (a stampede at the celebration square killed over 1,000) onward. His only son Alexei was a hemophiliac and Nicholas already abdicated not only his imperial rights but also Alexei's to his brother Mikhail, who was killed by the Bolsheviks in Perm even before the main Romanov family. The remaining senior heirs, Grand Dukes Kyril and Nicholas, were at odds: although Kyril was more closely related to Nicholas II, he had pulled a Philippe Egalite move (submitting to the authority of the Provisional Government and even wearing a revolutionary red armband for a while in hopes that they'd make him regent or even emperor) which royally pissed off the other Romanovs.

Historically the Entente supported Alexander Kolchak to become 'Supreme Ruler' of Russia, and he was recognized as such by the other major White generals in 1919. As to the conditions of their aid for his regime, well to quickly quote his Wiki page:
Alexander Kolchak's Wikipedia page said:
On 26 May 1919, the Supreme Allied Council in Paris offered to provide Kolchak with unlimited supplies of food, weapons, munitions and other supplies (but not diplomatic recognition) provided that he was willing to meet the following conditions:
  • Promise to convene the Constituent Assembly the Bolsheviks had disbanded in January 1918.[21]
  • Allow local self-government in territories under his control.[21]
  • Promise not to restore the aristocracy, the "former land system" and "make no attempt to reintroduce the regime which the revolution had destroyed" (i.e. not restore the monarchy).[21]
  • Recognize independence of Finland and Poland.[21]
  • Accept Allied mediation for relations with the Baltic states and in the Caucasus.[22]
  • Promise to join the League of Nations.[22]
  • Promise to pay all of Russia's debts.[22]
Pipes wrote that though the Allies wanted a Constituent Assembly to decide the future of Russia, they had decided in advance in their conditions that, for instance, there would be no restoration of the monarchy as well as many other matters that properly should have been decided by the Constituent Assembly.[22] Because Kolchak was entirely dependent upon supplies from Britain—the British had shipped him in the period October 1918-October 1919 about 600,000 rifles, 6,831 machine guns, and about 200,000 uniforms—he had to accept nearly all of the conditions.[22] In a telegram to Paris sent on 4 June 1919, Kolchak accepted every condition except for the independence of Finland, which he accepted only de facto, not de jure, saying he wanted the Constituent Assembly to grant Finland its independence.[22] As the Allies were especially opposed to a return of the House of Romanov, Kolchak emphatically declared "that there cannot be a return to the regime which existed in Russia before February 1917."[22] The British War Secretary Winston Churchill pressed very strongly in the cabinet for British recognition of Kolchak's government, but the Prime Minister David Lloyd George would only do so if the United States likewise recognized Kolchak.[22] The American president Woodrow Wilson was strongly hostile towards Kolchak, openly doubted his word, and was against diplomatic recognition.[22] Wilson's main adviser on Russia was the former head of the Provisional Government, Alexander Kerensky, who told Wilson that Kolchak was a "reactionary" who would "inaugurate a regime hardly less sanguinary and repressive than that of the Bolsheviks."[23] Though American forces in Siberia co-operated with Kolchak, it was clear he was not the man favored by the United States as the next leader of Russia.[24] American forces had been sent to Siberia less to help the Whites than to prevent the Japanese, who had occupied the Russian Far East, from annexing it as Tokyo was openly considering.
Emphasis mine. (Also, obligatory fuck Woodrow Wilson for making yet another absolutely brainless foreign policy move and also fuck Alexander Kerensky, the archetypal sort of erratic and spineless liberal who opens the door of state to Communism) Long story short though, if the Entente is to have a major hand in suppressing the Reds, they won't allow the Romanovs to return. Most likely the 'Russian State' will limp along for years to come, with Kolchak - notoriously not a people-person and a terrible administrator - as a 'first among equals' while the other major White generals establish fiefdoms of their own (the viciously antisemitic Denikin, most pogrom-happy of the White commanders, will probably dominate in the south if Kornilov still dies, for example) and Entente aid helping them to avert a famine & slowly rebuild. Time will tell if any one of the generals can overcome the rest, become more or less Russia's Chiang Kai-shek (the indisputable leader of the nation, even if he has to put up with some remaining warlords) and lead the shattered country back to glory.

Big butterflies abound in the foreign arena with a White victory, as well. There being no Bolshevik victory in Russia takes a lot of the wind out of the Nazis' sails in Germany, for example. But before we deal with that, consider Russia's relations with the countries that became independent during WW1 and the collapse of the Empire. As you can see from the Entente's demands, they pushed hard for Kolchak to recognize the independence of these countries (chiefly Poland and Finland), which is definitely going to ruffle the feathers of the Russian nationalists among the Whites (again, such as Denikin, who historically attacked the Ukrainian nationalists of Symon Petlyura at the same time that both were battling the Reds). Other generals, such as the 'Black Baron' Wrangel (who reached an accommodation with the Georgians and Ukrainians) would be more receptive to such demands. Whether Russia makes crushing & reintegrating these countries after fully recovering from the RCW, the most obvious foreign policy maneuver it could undertake if it's aggressively-minded, will depend on which faction ends up on top.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
^ That's correct - although there were certainly many monarchists in their ranks by default, the Whites were not universally monarchists. A lot of them were Social-Revolutionaries, Kadets and other democrats displaced by the Bolshevik coup we now know as the October Revolution, and several of the key White leaders (Lavr Kornilov, who worked closely with the Provisional Government until his chaotic maybe-coup in August of 1917 and seems to have favored an apolitical military dictatorship, comes to mind) were opposed to the Tsar. The most extreme absolute monarchists, the Black Hundreds, had lost a lot of credibility by this point.

Makes sense. Also, AFAIK, Kornilov was also relatively liberal on the nationalities question if his death can be avoided in this TL.

The Russian succession is also muddled at this point: in general practically nobody wanted the specific original Tsar, Nicholas II, back since his reign had been rather disastrous to put it mildly, constantly battered by tragedy and failure literally from his coronation (a stampede at the celebration square killed over 1,000) onward. His only son Alexei was a hemophiliac and Nicholas already abdicated not only his imperial rights but also Alexei's to his brother Mikhail, who was killed by the Bolsheviks in Perm even before the main Romanov family. The remaining senior heirs, Grand Dukes Kyril and Nicholas, were at odds: although Kyril was more closely related to Nicholas II, he had pulled a Philippe Egalite move (submitting to the authority of the Provisional Government and even wearing a revolutionary red armband for a while in hopes that they'd make him regent or even emperor) which royally pissed off the other Romanovs.

Theoretically they could revoke the Pauline Laws and put Nicholas II's eldest daughter Olga on the Russian throne if the Romanov family would not have been murdered en masse by the Bolsheviks in the summer of 1918, no? Else, they might either have to swallow Cyril or else not have a monarchy altogether.

Historically the Entente supported Alexander Kolchak to become 'Supreme Ruler' of Russia, and he was recognized as such by the other major White generals in 1919. As to the conditions of their aid for his regime, well to quickly quote his Wiki page:

Emphasis mine. (Also, obligatory fuck Woodrow Wilson for making yet another absolutely brainless foreign policy move and also fuck Alexander Kerensky, the archetypal sort of erratic and spineless liberal who opens the door of state to Communism) Long story short though, if the Entente is to have a major hand in suppressing the Reds, they won't allow the Romanovs to return. Most likely the 'Russian State' will limp along for years to come, with Kolchak - notoriously not a people-person and a terrible administrator - as a 'first among equals' while the other major White generals establish fiefdoms of their own (the viciously antisemitic Denikin, most pogrom-happy of the White commanders, will probably dominate in the south if Kornilov still dies, for example) and Entente aid helping them to avert a famine & slowly rebuild. Time will tell if any one of the generals can overcome the rest, become more or less Russia's Chiang Kai-shek (the indisputable leader of the nation, even if he has to put up with some remaining warlords) and lead the shattered country back to glory.

Do you believe that the Whites would have had much better odds of success in the RCW had Hughes rather than Wilson been US President during this time?

Big butterflies abound in the foreign arena with a White victory, as well. There being no Bolshevik victory in Russia takes a lot of the wind out of the Nazis' sails in Germany, for example. But before we deal with that, consider Russia's relations with the countries that became independent during WW1 and the collapse of the Empire. As you can see from the Entente's demands, they pushed hard for Kolchak to recognize the independence of these countries (chiefly Poland and Finland), which is definitely going to ruffle the feathers of the Russian nationalists among the Whites (again, such as Denikin, who historically attacked the Ukrainian nationalists of Symon Petlyura at the same time that both were battling the Reds). Other generals, such as the 'Black Baron' Wrangel (who reached an accommodation with the Georgians and Ukrainians) would be more receptive to such demands. Whether Russia makes crushing & reintegrating these countries after fully recovering from the RCW, the most obvious foreign policy maneuver it could undertake if it's aggressively-minded, will depend on which faction ends up on top.

Good analysis, though I wonder if the Nazis or some equivalent couldn't still come to power in Germany in this TL under the slogan of "Making Germany Great" or something like that. Similar to a Trump 2016 platform, only with territorial expansion being a major goal of theirs.
 

Circle of Willis

Well-known member
Makes sense. Also, AFAIK, Kornilov was also relatively liberal on the nationalities question if his death can be avoided in this TL.



Theoretically they could revoke the Pauline Laws and put Nicholas II's eldest daughter Olga on the Russian throne if the Romanov family would not have been murdered en masse by the Bolsheviks in the summer of 1918, no? Else, they might either have to swallow Cyril or else not have a monarchy altogether.
Nicholas could, but doesn't seem particularly inclined to do so. The Tsarina Alexandra already tried to get him to do it back in 1900, after they had their daughters but before Alexei was born and while Nicholas was ill, but he refused her then. Guy might've just been too old-fashioned for such a move. I consider it possible, if only so Nicholas doesn't have to deal with his Philippe Egalite-wannabe cousin becoming his heir, but not too likely.

Alternatively, if the Romanovs survive I could see Olga or one of the other Grand Duchesses being restored as a figurehead if a monarchist general like Denikin ends up on top. The Tsarist generals do not seem remotely presumptuous enough to try to marry these princesses to their own kin, so in any case Olga (or one of her sisters if she's dead) will probably be wed to another cousin, perhaps the handsome and politically disinterested playboy Dmitri Pavlovich of Kaiserreich fame. (Olga, famously short-tempered and stubborn, would likely clash with such a personality, but it wouldn't be close to being the first royal marriage in history to prioritize sewing up political loose ends over the personal happiness of the parties involved)
Do you believe that the Whites would have had much better odds of success in the RCW had Hughes rather than Wilson been US President during this time?
Sure, I'd say so. At the very least, I can't imagine Hughes would spaz out at Kolchak for not being an Ivy League-educated American progressive democrat, so he'd recognize the Russian State's government ASAP and Britain would follow suit as they had intended to. Would probably do a lot of good elsewhere too.
Good analysis, though I wonder if the Nazis or some equivalent couldn't still come to power in Germany in this TL under the slogan of "Making Germany Great" or something like that. Similar to a Trump 2016 platform, only with territorial expansion being a major goal of theirs.
I think it's very likely that a more 'normal' faction of conservative, revanchist militarists will topple the Weimar Republic in the absence of the Nazis. Certainly seems likelier than the Communists, who would most likely get immediately stomped by Germany's neighbors (and potentially Russia if it's recovered enough by then) even if they were to pull it off. Come the 1930s or '40s, I would imagine that a healed Russia and militarist Germany will have a common goal in carving up the Entente-backed Eastern European countries, if Russia is headed by a general who's inclined to go after them.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Nicholas could, but doesn't seem particularly inclined to do so. The Tsarina Alexandra already tried to get him to do it back in 1900, after they had their daughters but before Alexei was born and while Nicholas was ill, but he refused her then. Guy might've just been too old-fashioned for such a move. I consider it possible, if only so Nicholas doesn't have to deal with his Philippe Egalite-wannabe cousin becoming his heir, but not too likely.

AFAIK, Nicky might not have done this in 1900 because he might have still had hope for a son being born later on.

Alternatively, if the Romanovs survive I could see Olga or one of the other Grand Duchesses being restored as a figurehead if a monarchist general like Denikin ends up on top. The Tsarist generals do not seem remotely presumptuous enough to try to marry these princesses to their own kin, so in any case Olga (or one of her sisters if she's dead) will probably be wed to another cousin, perhaps the handsome and politically disinterested playboy Dmitri Pavlovich of Kaiserreich fame. (Olga, famously short-tempered and stubborn, would likely clash with such a personality, but it wouldn't be close to being the first royal marriage in history to prioritize sewing up political loose ends over the personal happiness of the parties involved)

Yep.

Sure, I'd say so. At the very least, I can't imagine Hughes would spaz out at Kolchak for not being an Ivy League-educated American progressive democrat, so he'd recognize the Russian State's government ASAP and Britain would follow suit as they had intended to. Would probably do a lot of good elsewhere too.

Would this actually be enough for the Whites to win the RCW, though?

I think it's very likely that a more 'normal' faction of conservative, revanchist militarists will topple the Weimar Republic in the absence of the Nazis. Certainly seems likelier than the Communists, who would most likely get immediately stomped by Germany's neighbors (and potentially Russia if it's recovered enough by then) even if they were to pull it off. Come the 1930s or '40s, I would imagine that a healed Russia and militarist Germany will have a common goal in carving up the Entente-backed Eastern European countries, if Russia is headed by a general who's inclined to go after them.

I'm not sure if normal conservative, revanchist militarists could perform at the polls anywhere near as well as the Nazis could during the Great Depression. But in any case, as per your scenario, I could certainly see Germany and Russia redrawing the map of Europe. Here is what I think it will look like:

-Germany gets back Danzig, the Polish Corridor (minus Gdynia), and maybe some or all of Polish Upper Silesia as well. But Poland is allowed to permanently keep Gdynia.
-Russia annexes eastern Poland (the Kresy) and maybe the Baltic countries and/or Bessarabia. Having Russia annex Subcarpathian Ruthenia is also possible but more risky since annexing it gives Russia easy access south of the Carpathians.
-Russia annexes the Caucasus and Central Asia if it has not done so already.
-If Russia annexes Bessarabia, then Hungary and Bulgaria might make a move on Northern Transylvania and Southern Dobruja, respectively.
-Germany annexes Austria.
-Russia might attempt to spark a new war with Turkey, but probably not.
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
It's my understanding that the commies had murdered the entire Royal family by the time the other countries got involved, so the monarchists would have had to find someone else if they were going to push for that. Sounds like that was never really an option, though, and it makes me wonder how this idea of Kolchak as "Supreme Leader" would have worked out, and what form the Russian government would have taken on if these efforts had been successful.
 

Circle of Willis

Well-known member
AFAIK, Nicky might not have done this in 1900 because he might have still had hope for a son being born later on.



Yep.



Would this actually be enough for the Whites to win the RCW, though?
Well, considering this thread is predicated on the Whites winning with foreign support, I'm gonna have to say yes.
I'm not sure if normal conservative, revanchist militarists could perform at the polls anywhere near as well as the Nazis could during the Great Depression. But in any case, as per your scenario, I could certainly see Germany and Russia redrawing the map of Europe. Here is what I think it will look like:

-Germany gets back Danzig, the Polish Corridor (minus Gdynia), and maybe some or all of Polish Upper Silesia as well. But Poland is allowed to permanently keep Gdynia.
-Russia annexes eastern Poland (the Kresy) and maybe the Baltic countries and/or Bessarabia. Having Russia annex Subcarpathian Ruthenia is also possible but more risky since annexing it gives Russia easy access south of the Carpathians.
-Russia annexes the Caucasus and Central Asia if it has not done so already.
-If Russia annexes Bessarabia, then Hungary and Bulgaria might make a move on Northern Transylvania and Southern Dobruja, respectively.
-Germany annexes Austria.
-Russia might attempt to spark a new war with Turkey, but probably not.
Never said anything about them taking over peacefully - they could always pull off a more successful putsch than the right-wing ones which happened and failed historically.

Would agree with the other points. At the very least that's what these revisionist powers would want at minimum, I imagine. Really, the only thing that has even a prayer of stopping a rearmed, rebuilt and committed Russo-German alliance in the '30s or '40s would be the UK/France, and that's if they'll even try between the pacifist inclination of their own post-WW1 populations and the opposition not being as radical & insatiably expansionist as the Nazis (or the Communists, for that matter).
It's my understanding that the commies had murdered the entire Royal family by the time the other countries got involved, so the monarchists would have had to find someone else if they were going to push for that. Sounds like that was never really an option, though, and it makes me wonder how this idea of Kolchak as "Supreme Leader" would have worked out, and what form the Russian government would have taken on if these efforts had been successful.
I stand by my previous assessment: probably something like Warlord Era China, with Kolchak leading an internationally recognized but largely ineffectual government - just lower in intensity, as I doubt the White generals would go for each other's throats immediately after defeating the Reds. They'd be more focused on exterminating any remaining Bolsheviks and Bolshevik-adjacents first, a category which could vary from general to general; Wrangel for example would likely be more restrained given that he didn't tolerate disorder and looting in his ranks, while Denikin's definition of 'Bolshevik-adjacent' may well include 'literally any Jew & anyone to the left of himself who has the misfortune of living in his fiefdom'.

The admiral was a poor choice to lead the Whites: on paper he had prestige from his naval career, but otherwise he was uncharismatic, a bad administrator, prone to alienating critical allies (from the SRs to his fellow generals to the Czechoslovak Legion, the latter proving fatal to him) and lacking in vision beyond 'beat the Reds', and also wouldn't make compromises with ethnic minorities or the left-wing but anti-Bolshevik Social Revolutionaries unless the Entente absolutely twisted his arm into it. IMO his support base was too narrow to unite the country in more than name - pretty much just the troops directly answering to him and the big landowners whose estates he restored, really.

With a post-Romanov executions POD, I think Denikin or Wrangel are the likeliest candidates to eventually dethrone Kolchak and inaugurate a Russian equivalent to the Nanjing Decade which followed Chiang Kai-shek's subduing of the other major warlords in China. Denikin was a proper reactionary (among other things, as I said before, he was notorious for indulging in pogroms and opposed to letting any of the former Russian territories go) and more likely to restore a living Romanov as Tsar; Wrangel was a more pragmatic reformist, more likely to not want to overreach abroad & spook the Entente and to strive for something resembling a constitutional government at home. A third option would be Nikolai Yudenich, who would be in control of Petrograd and northwestern Russia in a White victory, but was weaker and less prominent than the other three bigwigs. Any of them could take Russia down interesting paths. Figures like Vladimir Purishkevich, a Black Hundred chief and hardline reactionary, could play important roles in post-war Russia as well, although likely in a subordinate position to one of the generals due to their own lack of an army.
 

ATP

Well-known member
No tsar,like many others said here.Klczak first,then some small cyvil war,then....Denikin/Wrangel/some fascist-style leader.
Foreign policy - beat Poland,but not as german ally.Beat them,too.
Poland with current boundaries/more or less/,and russian vassal state.Russia with France alliance against germans and possibly England.
And yes,they would take Constantinopole.

Another possibility - Poland do not made peace with soviets in 1920,but alliance with Wrangel.France and USA promised money and weapon if we do so.
Soviets destroyed - but mainly by poles.Result - stronger Poland,probably with Ukrainian and Belorussian vassal states.Russia in that case wont war with Poland,just like germans.
England in OTL supported germans to weaken France,now they would support Poland to weaken Russia,and keep Europe in state where nobody could conqer most of continent.
For how long? another 100 years? catholic germans do not liked prussians,and would not support another war,if they have choice.
 

raharris1973

Well-known member
Another possibility - Poland do not made peace with soviets in 1920,but alliance with Wrangel.France and USA promised money and weapon if we do so.
Soviets destroyed - but mainly by poles.Result - stronger Poland,probably with Ukrainian and Belorussian vassal states.Russia in that case wont war with Poland,just like germans.
England in OTL supported germans to weaken France,now they would support Poland to weaken Russia,and keep Europe in state where nobody could conqer most of continent.

This one, a Polish-Wrangel coalition, is an interesting possibility because it offers the greatest autonomy for greatest number of National groups

By the way, what type of post Boleshevik defeat situation would be most conducive to a maximum of Jewish emigration from the former Russian empire in the 1920s? A highly centralized tightening Russia with antiseptic policies or a highly fragmented ex Russian space with all the newfound nations pursuing anti Semitic policies and defining Jews as not the state people?
 

ATP

Well-known member
This one, a Polish-Wrangel coalition, is an interesting possibility because it offers the greatest autonomy for greatest number of National groups

By the way, what type of post Boleshevik defeat situation would be most conducive to a maximum of Jewish emigration from the former Russian empire in the 1920s? A highly centralized tightening Russia with antiseptic policies or a highly fragmented ex Russian space with all the newfound nations pursuing anti Semitic policies and defining Jews as not the state people?

1.Indeed,it is promising,we should do that.Romanians would add few dyvisions,too.We paid for or stupidity in 1939 and after 1945.
2.In both cases jews would be blamed for bolshewik crimes,but one strong goverment mean one politics,so ,becouse politic would be anti-jewish,that mean more emigration that few successor states.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
This one, a Polish-Wrangel coalition, is an interesting possibility because it offers the greatest autonomy for greatest number of National groups

By the way, what type of post Boleshevik defeat situation would be most conducive to a maximum of Jewish emigration from the former Russian empire in the 1920s? A highly centralized tightening Russia with antiseptic policies or a highly fragmented ex Russian space with all the newfound nations pursuing anti Semitic policies and defining Jews as not the state people?

I think you mean anti-Semitic and not anti-septic! ;)

Anyway, though, I'm not sure that there would be a cardinal difference for Jews here either way since in both cases, they could be perceived as being outsiders, though in smaller nation-states, they could be made easier targets whereas in larger nation-states, they might have less of a monopoly on being targets of ethnonationalistic hate by the majority group(s). Though even in smaller nation-states, the ethnic majority could hate on the Roma as well as on the Jews.
 

raharris1973

Well-known member
What's more likely, a victory of White Russia of the triumvirate of Generals and the Admiral (Denikin, Yudenich & Kolchak), or a victory of of Green Russia, the SRs championing the Constituent Assembly who Kolchak ousted in his coup?

And what would be the most likely border between a non-Red Russia and Poland? The Curzon Line, something approximating OTL's line of the Riga Treaty, or something further east like an old PLC-Muscovite border?
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
What's more likely, a victory of White Russia of the triumvirate of Generals and the Admiral (Denikin, Yudenich & Kolchak), or a victory of of Green Russia, the SRs championing the Constituent Assembly who Kolchak ousted in his coup?

The former. The Greens didn't have a powerful army, to my knowledge. Did they?

And what would be the most likely border between a non-Red Russia and Poland? The Curzon Line, something approximating OTL's line of the Riga Treaty, or something further east like an old PLC-Muscovite border?

Depends on the military strength of all of the parties. Though Poland could get less Western aid in this TL without the Red Menace fear. Still, I'm unsure just how crucial Western aid was for Poland in the Polish-Soviet War. Any data in regards to this available?
 

ATP

Well-known member
The former. The Greens didn't have a powerful army, to my knowledge. Did they?



Depends on the military strength of all of the parties. Though Poland could get less Western aid in this TL without the Red Menace fear. Still, I'm unsure just how crucial Western aid was for Poland in the Polish-Soviet War. Any data in regards to this available?

1.More people fought for greens,then for whites.But - whites have western aid.
2.In 1920 batlle Poland was saved by hungarian aid/ammo and rifles/,not western.They delivered stuff after that and before,but not when that count.
 

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