Why representative democracy is evil

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
This is reliant on what are actually fairly specific events to occur, as displayed well by the vast majority of socialist power grabs just imploding the economy altogether instead of granting an existing corporation a monopoly via nationalization. As Reveille implied, the sort of "socialist" that big corporations get behind tends to lead to a failed state and them out of money in the end because the infrastructure and labor market turn to shit, whereas the kind of socialist that lasts with a chance to evolve into a mixed market like China tends to brutally destroy the existing big corporations to make new ones beholden to them.

Just because billionaire corporations are backing a power grab doesn't mean the natural progressions of dictatorship stop applying. The moment it descends to blatant cheating or physical violence, it stops being about money and starts being about naked force, which big corporations actually tend to be quite poor at. Once you start backing the socialist revolt, the determinant of who's in charge becomes a matter of who's best at courting and managing socialist revolutionaries, who are markedly opposed to corporate profits making keeping them in line considerably more difficult.

There is, after all, a reason every major media group suddenly stopped talking about economic class after Occupy Wall Street and started talking about unequal outcomes based on ethnicity and ultra-minority identity groups. Because socialism's been proven a terrible mechanism because the socialists you're trying to appease actively hate you and the desired policy direction is known by precedent to be terrible for lasting profits so your stock market cap will drop out from under you.

True, but frankly I think that corporations have the same problem as the voters: they tend not to think beyond the next quartal. Or as we have a saying here in Croatia, "iza mene potop" (which is in fact a translation of the Louis XVI's Après moi, le déluge). Modern world has a very fast living pace, and most of the wealth is literal vaporware - just a code in bank's computer, with people spending other people's money because banks know that most of the money is not used at the same time (and if everybody did decide to withdraw their money at the same time, system would collapse). This leads to very fast transitions and transfers of wealth, and need to keep up with day-to-day developments. But this fast living pace means that nobody has the capacity to consider what will happen even the next year, let alone the next decade or next century - and many if most people wouldn't care anyway, as they have come to care about personal profits only. In the political arena, we have a problem which I have described in the OP - a political class with no stake in long-term prosperity of the nation, living from elections to elections. So it actually makes sense, in such an environment, for corporations to back something that will destroy them long-term if it leads to short-term profit.
 

DocSolarisReich

Esoteric Spaceman
o it actually makes sense, in such an environment, for corporations to back something that will destroy them long-term if it leads to short-term profit.

Corporations are not managed by owners, they are managed by mercenary hired managers who are given orders to to show growth this quarter or fiscal year to make the stonk price go up, so the 'owners' who are institutional investors, ie, merchant speculative investment banks, make a profit. No one cares about the 'long term' because in the long term, everyone dies.
 
Corporations are not managed by owners, they are managed by mercenary hired managers who are given orders to to show growth this quarter or fiscal year to make the stonk price go up, so the 'owners' who are institutional investors, ie, merchant speculative investment banks, make a profit. No one cares about the 'long term' because in the long term, everyone dies.

Well I mean when your kids grow up and decide to give you and your legacy a middle finger regardless of how well you try to raise them, why would you care about the long term? In the end we're all worm food, so if no one is going to care, why not live it up and reward yourself and your wife? Nothing kills a legacy faster than children.
 

ATP

Well-known member
True, but frankly I think that corporations have the same problem as the voters: they tend not to think beyond the next quartal. Or as we have a saying here in Croatia, "iza mene potop" (which is in fact a translation of the Louis XVI's Après moi, le déluge). Modern world has a very fast living pace, and most of the wealth is literal vaporware - just a code in bank's computer, with people spending other people's money because banks know that most of the money is not used at the same time (and if everybody did decide to withdraw their money at the same time, system would collapse). This leads to very fast transitions and transfers of wealth, and need to keep up with day-to-day developments. But this fast living pace means that nobody has the capacity to consider what will happen even the next year, let alone the next decade or next century - and many if most people wouldn't care anyway, as they have come to care about personal profits only. In the political arena, we have a problem which I have described in the OP - a political class with no stake in long-term prosperity of the nation, living from elections to elections. So it actually makes sense, in such an environment, for corporations to back something that will destroy them long-term if it leads to short-term profit.

Like Lenin said - capitalist would sell us rope on which we hang them.And he could succed,if german revolution win,or Poland do not stop them in 1920,or Stalin backstab Hitler first.
Anthony Sutton in his books proved that Wall Street not only paid bolshewik revolution,but also gave them credits and technology till at least 1973.

Now,it is the same with Wall Street and leftists.Only difference - this time they could win.,at least in USA.
 

Hlaalu Agent

Nerevar going to let you down
Founder
Another article to the theme:

Actually, that is the case for elective oligarchy being evil, since that is what we actually have an not democracy. The problem is the fact that the people being elected can cheat the system, and the fact that they will. If we were electing actual democrats, Aristocrats, or Middle Men, we wouldn't have this problem.

And elections are by nature a oligarchic mode of governance, if you want true democracy, you'd want ballots or sortition. So Aldarion, you are incorrect in calling democracy evil, because the real problem is oligarchy.
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
Actually, that is the case for elective oligarchy being evil, since that is what we actually have an not democracy. The problem is the fact that the people being elected can cheat the system, and the fact that they will. If we were electing actual democrats, Aristocrats, or Middle Men, we wouldn't have this problem.

And elections are by nature a oligarchic mode of governance, if you want true democracy, you'd want ballots or sortition. So Aldarion, you are incorrect in calling democracy evil, because the real problem is oligarchy.

All governments are oligarchical- the definition is basically "power rests with the elites" which is obviously always true - if power rested with some other group, then they would be the elites. So "oligarchical government" just means "government" - the distinctions are between matters such as who the elite are and how many there are, but it's always going to be a fairly small number, because humans evolved in small groups and we feel more comfortable with small group dynamics. The only exceptions might be in societies that aren't much larger than Dunbar's number.
 

Hlaalu Agent

Nerevar going to let you down
Founder
All governments are oligarchical- the definition is basically "power rests with the elites" which is obviously always true. So "oligarchical government" just means "government" - the distinctions are between matters such as who the elite are and how many there are, but it's always going to be a fairly small number, because humans evolved in small groups and we feel more comfortable with small group dynamics. The only exceptions might be in societies that aren't much larger than Dunbar's number.

In that sense, yes. All governments are oligarhical. I am more leaning on the classical or Aristotlean definition. Rule of the Elite, in their own interest, as opposed to the common.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Actually, that is the case for elective oligarchy being evil, since that is what we actually have an not democracy. The problem is the fact that the people being elected can cheat the system, and the fact that they will. If we were electing actual democrats, Aristocrats, or Middle Men, we wouldn't have this problem.

And elections are by nature a oligarchic mode of governance, if you want true democracy, you'd want ballots or sortition. So Aldarion, you are incorrect in calling democracy evil, because the real problem is oligarchy.

Form of democracy you want can only exist in literal city-states. Also:
"If we were electing actual democrats, Aristocrats, or Middle Men, we wouldn't have this problem."

Finding such people is impossible, especially when you require them to run elections.
 

Hlaalu Agent

Nerevar going to let you down
Founder
Form of democracy you want can only exist in literal city-states. Also:
"If we were electing actual democrats, Aristocrats, or Middle Men, we wouldn't have this problem."

Finding such people is impossible, especially when you require them to run elections.

Then maybe we should devolve power more, so we can actually run things sensibly...I am pretty sure we both believe in devolution of power to the lowest efficient level?
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Then maybe we should devolve power more, so we can actually run things sensibly...I am pretty sure we both believe in devolution of power to the lowest efficient level?

Problem is that modern society leads to the concentration of power, and democracy in particular I believe encourages these tendencies. But yes, devolving power as much as possible is about the only way to avoid tyranny.
 

Hlaalu Agent

Nerevar going to let you down
Founder
Problem is that modern society leads to the concentration of power, and democracy in particular I believe encourages these tendencies. But yes, devolving power as much as possible is about the only way to avoid tyranny.

Modern democracy at least. I am thinking we need to have selection by lot, though we can always qualify who is selected and narrow it by office. And always combine it with other mechanisms to balance democracy with oligarchy (or preferably Aristocracy and/or the middle men). Maybe we can even have a King in power to protect the Constitution (and not just the formal one, but the one in the classical sense), an upper elected house, and a lower chosen by lot house.

I am thinking here of ensuring that power is broken up, and that the people have their say without having mob rule. So I am thinking mixed government in the truest sense might help.
 
If people are too lazy to keep their own local communities in check then nothing is going to other forms of tyranny from taking effect. I am quickly finding that people are getting exactly what they deserve. If you refuse take charge and live your life, then others will live your life for you.
 

Hlaalu Agent

Nerevar going to let you down
Founder
If people are too lazy to keep their own local communities in check then nothing is going to other forms of tyranny from taking effect. I am quickly finding that people are getting exactly what they deserve. If you refuse take charge and live your life, then others will live your life for you.

Yes, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. In fact that is the price of all goods. We must work to maintain it. And yes, we should live our lives, so it isn't lived for us...really reminds me I need to get my own house in order (maybe find my Peterson Book and get into it)

I think it is this actual understanding is what unifies many people here, we might be from all over the political spectrum- hell we may not even be on it. But we share the understanding that we need to act and not be passive to preserve what we perceive as the good. The fact that we even need to state such things is...unfortunate as such things are old knowledge and old lessons. And really it seems like we are treading once again on the same well traveled path of history, down the path of stagnation and ruin, because we are too lazy, to not be complacent and are letting the great edifices built by our forefathers wither away until they are naught by a desert-foot.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Yes, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. In fact that is the price of all goods. We must work to maintain it. And yes, we should live our lives, so it isn't lived for us...really reminds me I need to get my own house in order (maybe find my Peterson Book and get into it)

I think it is this actual understanding is what unifies many people here, we might be from all over the political spectrum- hell we may not even be on it. But we share the understanding that we need to act and not be passive to preserve what we perceive as the good. The fact that we even need to state such things is...unfortunate as such things are old knowledge and old lessons. And really it seems like we are treading once again on the same well traveled path of history, down the path of stagnation and ruin, because we are too lazy, to not be complacent and are letting the great edifices built by our forefathers wither away until they are naught by a desert-foot.

Platon belived that ancient egyptian priest told Solon of big cyvilisation destroyed by either gods or calamities,but he get it wrong.
Atlantis,Mu and others destroyed themselves ,when they let leftist rule them.
Maybe next cyvilisation would be made by people from Amazonia or other remote region where people are still normal.
Once i hoped for my country,but it seems that Poland die as last european country.
 
Yes, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. In fact that is the price of all goods. We must work to maintain it. And yes, we should live our lives, so it isn't lived for us...really reminds me I need to get my own house in order (maybe find my Peterson Book and get into it)

I think it is this actual understanding is what unifies many people here, we might be from all over the political spectrum- hell we may not even be on it. But we share the understanding that we need to act and not be passive to preserve what we perceive as the good. The fact that we even need to state such things is...unfortunate as such things are old knowledge and old lessons. And really it seems like we are treading once again on the same well traveled path of history, down the path of stagnation and ruin, because we are too lazy, to not be complacent and are letting the great edifices built by our forefathers wither away until they are naught by a desert-foot.


I look back at history and wonder if The making of bronze and gold Idols were not done out of ignorance, but rather Mankinds first instance of Virtue Signaling rather than trying to make accomplishments and stories of their own they would build up idols of bronze and flesh saying "this is my culture" I know I'd be branded a heretic by some for saying this, but do people not do the same when they like tweets or follow celebrities? How many of our own tried crowning Trump a king as opposed to taking his lesson or his example to heart?
 

DocSolarisReich

Esoteric Spaceman
I look back at history and wonder if The making of bronze and gold Idols were not done out of ignorance, but rather Mankinds first instance of Virtue Signaling rather than trying to make accomplishments and stories of their own they would build up idols of bronze and flesh saying "this is my culture" I know I'd be branded a heretic by some for saying this, but do people not do the same when they like tweets or follow celebrities? How many of our own tried crowning Trump a king as opposed to taking his lesson or his example to heart?

Rudyard Kipling said “all this has happened before and will happen again” best.


AS I PASS through my incarnations in every age and race,
I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.

We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.

When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know."

On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death."

In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!
 
Rudyard Kipling said “all this has happened before and will happen again” best.


AS I PASS through my incarnations in every age and race,
I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.

We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.

When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know."

On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death."

In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

Blessed are the peacekeepers. Lord only knows somebody has to have fun on this roller coaster.
 

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