History Whom was greater, Augustus or Julius Caesar?

[Lord Sovereign]

Both of them are worthy of their reputations, and Caesar effortlessly outdoes his adoptive son in military matters (fortunately for Augustus, he had a legendary bromance going on with Agrippa), but I think Augustus ultimately edges out ahead. After the initial blood letting of the Proscriptions (an act which I think he honestly regretted in his later years) he actually succeeds in bringing peace to Rome, where all the other dictators totally failed. He reconciles the various factions, gets the Senate to work properly again, subjugates Egypt and its E-thot Queen, and builds some of the Eternal City's finest monuments whilst bettering the lives of his subjects. And, as flawed as the Principate system was, it ushered in Pax Romana and Augustus was its creator.

Are as far as statesmanship goes, I'm not sure if there are any greater than Augustus.

 

[Skallagrim]

One let his enemies live and got stabbed to death. The other killed everyone who could pose a threat, and established an imperial government that lasted for centuries.

For my part, I don't think Augustus regretted the proscriptions. He knew what he was doing. He could bring peace precisely because he had eliminated all threats. After removing the rivals, he could safely reduce the size of the military, design a government that actually did less governing, and lower taxes. That's always a recipe for success, especially in the wake of a century over ever-escalating bloodshed.

But you do have to shoot all the mad dogs, first. Because otherwise, it's just suicide. (See: Uncle Gaius.)

 

[Lord Sovereign]

For my part, I don't think Augustus regretted the proscriptions. He knew what he was doing. He could bring peace precisely because he had eliminated all threats. After removing the rivals, he could safely reduce the size of the military, design a government that actually did less governing, and lower taxes. That's always a recipe for success, especially in the wake of a century over ever-escalating bloodshed.

I don't know. What happened happened with Cicero seemed to haunt him for a very long time.

 

[Skallagrim]

I don't know. What happened happened with Cicero seemed to haunt him for a very long time.

He respected Cicero, and -- by his own metric -- didn't see Cicero as someone who had to die in order secure the stability of Rome. It was Marcus Antonius who absolutely wanted him dead, and the set-up was that no Triumvir could veto the proscriptions of either of the others. That's what allowed Augustus to present a list that was more than twice as long as what the other two came up with combined.

If I read Augustus somewhat correctly (and I flatter myself that I do), it's not the killing that bothered him. He sure instigated a lot of it, very deliberately. It's that he had to acquiesce to the murder of a human, to please a dog.

To him, Marcus Antonius was a ham-brained thug, and Cicero was a learned man of great accomplishment. He needed the alliance with Marcus Antonius at the time, so he had to compromise. And he did, because he knew what was most important. But it rankled, forever after, that he'd ever been in that position of weakness. That he'd had to compromise with a brute, and that it had caused the death of someone worthy.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

If I read Augustus somewhat correctly (and I flatter myself that I do), it's not the killing that bothered him. He sure instigated a lot of it, very deliberately. It's that he had to acquiesce to the murder of a human, to please a dog.

People who don't have guilty consciences don't usually look out for the descendants and relatives of those put to death on their orders. Cicero junior's career was essentially bankrolled and supported by Augustus.

 

[Cherico]

People who don't have guilty consciences don't usually look out for the descendants and relatives of those put to death on their orders. Cicero junior's career was essentially bankrolled and supported by Augustus.

Augustus did what he had to do for the Roman people's sake some day this cycles Augustus will likely have to do the same thing to end the madness

 

[bintananth]

People who don't have guilty consciences don't usually look out for the descendants and relatives of those put to death on their orders. Cicero junior's career was essentially bankrolled and supported by Augustus.

He also took care of the three children Mark Antony had with Cleopatra.

Caesarion was killed because uncle Julius was Caesarion's dad and he was a threat to Roman stability.