UltimatePaladin
Well-known member
This... makes sense. There was something about early Kylo that I actually liked, but couldn't quite describe it. My grips were more about the execution. This puts the words to it, thank you!
Star Wars What would your sequel trilogy have been?
- Thread starter Captain X
- Start date
Yeah, there's a lot more of this too. Him thinking that his grandfather epitomized power and being in control instead of the reality of his grandfather having traded Watto for Palpatine, stuff like that.
I really don't have too much of a problem with the prequel treaty. It had problems, but that was largely in execution not in the overall story they tried to tell. It's why the novelizations and fanfic of the Prequel can change relatively little and be good, while the stuff for the sequel has fundemental problems that can't be paved over with better writing. They need fundamental changes.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
Here's something that's sparked by an argument I've seen in various sequel discussions, raised by people who want to defend TLJ from any and all criticism. The argument is that TLJ is a natural and logical follow-up to TFA, that any problems are purely the fault of Abrams and that Johnson is utterly blameless, and that the way Johnson presented certain things (e.g. Luke as a depressed hobo) was the only viable way to follow up on TFA.
That argument is, in a word, bullshit.
There are many things wrong with it, and I'm going to ignore most of those things (such as there being no need at all for the sabre-toss or the alien tit-milking). Instead, I'll focus only on the core issue, and specifically as it pertains to Luke. Was depicting him as a sad hobo who wants to die the only correct way to follow up on TFA? Not in the slightest. Was it even a logical way to follow up on TFA? Not in the slightest.
I can prove that, and easily. TFA was changed in post-production at the behest of Rian Johnson. As Abrams planned it, Luke was standing there in Jedi robes, surrounded by floating rocks circling around him. The very image of a Jedi Master. Johnson wanted that changed, because he wanted Luke cut off from the Force. How is TLJ a logical follow-up to TFA if TFA had to be altered after the fact to accomodate TLJ? An inevitable and natural follow-up doesn't need to ask for post-production changes to its predecessor.
Note that while Abrams agreed to take out the rocks, Johnson actually wanted more changes, which Abrams refused -- the assumption is that Johnson wanted the Jedi robes gone, too. Since Abrams didn't agree to that change, Johnson had Luke awkwardly change into that hobo outfit as soon as possible in TLJ. "Hobo Luke" is 100% Johnson's decision, and not something from TFA.
If Abrams had refused to change anything about TFA, Johnson's TLJ wouldn't have been possible at all. If Luke had been depicted standing there in his Jedi robes, with flying rocks circling around him, the audience would never have accepted him being a Force-deprived and depressed hobo in the next film. "I came to this island to die" in no way follows logically from that image of Luke. Therefore, it's evident that Johnson wasn't forced into the route he chose, no matter what some claim. He forced his choices on others. Abrams handled many things poorly, but Johnson decided to follow up on TFA in a way that was his particular choice. It was not even remotely close to a logical or natural follow-up to TFA. Let alone an inevitable one.
Not explaining Luke's absence (because MUH MYSTERY BOXES!) is a fault of Abrams. But providing a shit answer to that question ("I came to this island to die") is a fault of Johnson.
Which brings me to my actual goal here: presenting an alternative depiction of Luke that follows logically on TFA (as Abrams intended it, with no changes forced by Johnson or anyone else), and which doesn't even contradict anything else in TLJ. Only the Rey-and-Luke plot and the film's conclusion (which also involves Luke) are affected at all.
Here's my pitch for that:
-------------------------------------------
We end TFA with Luke standing there, floating rocks circling around him. The Jedi Master awaits the potential student, and she approaches. Roll credits.
TLJ, after its opening sequence, picks up Rey's plot at that very point. Luke isn't dismissive of the sabre, but isn't happy to see Rey at all. He went into hiding for a reason. He sought the first Jedi temple because it's built on a strong Force nexus, and its energy hides him from Snoke, who is constantly seeking to find and destroy Luke -- the last Jedi -- so he can end the Jedi line. But Luke reveals the truth: he is not the last Jedi. His reason to be in hiding is to keep a new generation of apprentices safe from Snoke. To train them without Snoke doing to any of them what he previously did to Ben Solo. The Jedi temple is, in fact, a hidden praxeum where the Jedi Order has been reborn in secret.
(One may note that we see barely anything of Luke's island, especially in TFA's closing scene. Its size is unclear. TLJ shows those alien nuns living there, and a deleted scene shows there's a whole village on the island, and Luke says a near-by island is inhabited, too. So it's not at all a given that Luke is alone there. The presence of a hidden Jedi Academy is completely plausible within the bounds of what TFA, and even TLJ, showed us about the island.)
The reason for Luke's irritation with Rey becomes clear: by tracking Luke down, she is actually endangering all of his efforts. Luke's students aren't ready yet. If the First Order strikes now, all of Luke's efforts will have been for nought. He didn't even tell Han and Leia his true intent, to make sure that Snoke -- who we know excels at penetrating someone's mind from afar, since TFA establishes he did that to Ben -- could not take the truth from their minds unwittingly. When Rey reveals that Han is dead, Luke's sorrow only increases. But it does lead him to question himself. Was he right to retreat? He did it for his pupils, to keep them safe, but has he caused his best friend's death? Would Han still be there, if Luke had remained by his side? Or would they both be dead by now?
Rey is full of opinions, and wants Luke to fight the First Order. Luke tells her that being a Jedi means letting go of all that certainty. "Ben always felt he was so right about everything... he never doubted himself. But we should. We have to question our beliefs, Rey."
But Rey isn't ready to question her beliefs. She knows the First Order is waging war at that very moment. The Republic has been decapitated. Her new-found friends are in danger. Leia is in danger. Why won't Luke do something?! The answer is simple: because he thinks it'll make matters worse. He tells her that he was impulsive once, and wanted to save his friends. His Jedi Master told him not to go, but he did anyway. It was a costly mistake.
Rey doesn't want to hear it. Someone has to fight; to stand up tothe First Order. If Luke isn't willing, and won't allow his students, won't he then help Rey to master her own Force powers? If he won't act, she will. All she asks is that he helps her understand her gift. But Luke is not inclined to train Rey at all. She's impulsive, impatient, and prove to violent answers whenever challenged. She reminds Luke of young Ben. He asked for the same things Rey is asking now.
We now have a conflict between Rey and Luke. But the latter's issue isn't an uncharacteristic loss of hope: he is definitely still trying to fix his mistakes. Their conflict is about the correct approach. Rey thinks she can help if he trains her, he thinks he should solve it himself because she's not ready. Their goals are aligned, but their methods at odds. And they are both right. They both have something valuable to learn from each other. Rey needs to become truly ready (e.g. learn to have patience, see the wider picture, etc.) and Luke needs to learn that it's time to hand over excalibur to a new generation (he can't do it all himself; he has to become the mentor instead of the hero, and that means trusting the younger heroes to take on the responsibility). But neither one is quite ready to face these things.
Luke ends up not listening to her at first, which is why her psychic connection to Kylo becomes so dangerous. Rey is getting increasingly desperate, knowing her friends are in danger. Luke seems pointlessly cruel to her. This can be fortified by adding the plot point that she feels inadequate compared to Luke's actual students, who seemingly outclass her. It turns out, at least in her mind, that she really is a meaningless scavenger with no role in this adventure at all. Kylo plays into that, 100% the toxic manipulator. The viewer sees him for what he is, but Rey can't. So faced with Luke's rejection, and Kylo's offered hand, she allows her abandonment issues (her fears) to guide her actions. She goes off to meet up with Kylo.
This plays out much as we actually saw it in TLJ, with Kylo killing and supplanting Snoke. Rey escapes, Kylo pursues. They have both chosen: she is a hero, he is a villain. A clash is now inevitable. It all comes down to a great battle on the surface, where Luke appears at the last minute, to help the heroes. Not as a hologram, but for real. With his students. The last of the Jedi enter the fight to save the day, and all our heroes manage to escape the trap and flee into hyperspace. Including Luke; he doesn't die here. Big reunion. Luke is steeling himself for Leia's anger because he went into exile, but she's just happy to have her twin back. Love wins out over our fears. Rey admits she was wrong about trusting Kylo. Luke admits he was wrong about Rey. Together, our heroes will continue the fight, and Luke will train Rey as a Jedi. Cut to credits. Roll John Williams score.
-----------------
None of this is illogical, none of this is at odds with TFA, none of this is at odds with established characterisation of anyone, none of this is at odds with the themes of Star Wars.
Could this be done far better if I were to also change things about TFA? Absolutely. TFA digs some really tricky pits we have to side-step to make a good story work. That's always the case with anything Abrams does, sadly. But as I've shown, it is completely possible to imagine a story-arc for Luke that follows up on TFA and yet has none of the stuff that many people hate so much about TLJ. All that stuff was avoidable, and the fact that we got that flawed story is entirely Rian Johnson's fault. No-one else is to blame for that. He didn't have to fuck up Luke's entire character; he chose to do it.
That argument is, in a word, bullshit.
There are many things wrong with it, and I'm going to ignore most of those things (such as there being no need at all for the sabre-toss or the alien tit-milking). Instead, I'll focus only on the core issue, and specifically as it pertains to Luke. Was depicting him as a sad hobo who wants to die the only correct way to follow up on TFA? Not in the slightest. Was it even a logical way to follow up on TFA? Not in the slightest.
I can prove that, and easily. TFA was changed in post-production at the behest of Rian Johnson. As Abrams planned it, Luke was standing there in Jedi robes, surrounded by floating rocks circling around him. The very image of a Jedi Master. Johnson wanted that changed, because he wanted Luke cut off from the Force. How is TLJ a logical follow-up to TFA if TFA had to be altered after the fact to accomodate TLJ? An inevitable and natural follow-up doesn't need to ask for post-production changes to its predecessor.
Note that while Abrams agreed to take out the rocks, Johnson actually wanted more changes, which Abrams refused -- the assumption is that Johnson wanted the Jedi robes gone, too. Since Abrams didn't agree to that change, Johnson had Luke awkwardly change into that hobo outfit as soon as possible in TLJ. "Hobo Luke" is 100% Johnson's decision, and not something from TFA.
If Abrams had refused to change anything about TFA, Johnson's TLJ wouldn't have been possible at all. If Luke had been depicted standing there in his Jedi robes, with flying rocks circling around him, the audience would never have accepted him being a Force-deprived and depressed hobo in the next film. "I came to this island to die" in no way follows logically from that image of Luke. Therefore, it's evident that Johnson wasn't forced into the route he chose, no matter what some claim. He forced his choices on others. Abrams handled many things poorly, but Johnson decided to follow up on TFA in a way that was his particular choice. It was not even remotely close to a logical or natural follow-up to TFA. Let alone an inevitable one.
Not explaining Luke's absence (because MUH MYSTERY BOXES!) is a fault of Abrams. But providing a shit answer to that question ("I came to this island to die") is a fault of Johnson.
Which brings me to my actual goal here: presenting an alternative depiction of Luke that follows logically on TFA (as Abrams intended it, with no changes forced by Johnson or anyone else), and which doesn't even contradict anything else in TLJ. Only the Rey-and-Luke plot and the film's conclusion (which also involves Luke) are affected at all.
Here's my pitch for that:
-------------------------------------------
We end TFA with Luke standing there, floating rocks circling around him. The Jedi Master awaits the potential student, and she approaches. Roll credits.
TLJ, after its opening sequence, picks up Rey's plot at that very point. Luke isn't dismissive of the sabre, but isn't happy to see Rey at all. He went into hiding for a reason. He sought the first Jedi temple because it's built on a strong Force nexus, and its energy hides him from Snoke, who is constantly seeking to find and destroy Luke -- the last Jedi -- so he can end the Jedi line. But Luke reveals the truth: he is not the last Jedi. His reason to be in hiding is to keep a new generation of apprentices safe from Snoke. To train them without Snoke doing to any of them what he previously did to Ben Solo. The Jedi temple is, in fact, a hidden praxeum where the Jedi Order has been reborn in secret.
(One may note that we see barely anything of Luke's island, especially in TFA's closing scene. Its size is unclear. TLJ shows those alien nuns living there, and a deleted scene shows there's a whole village on the island, and Luke says a near-by island is inhabited, too. So it's not at all a given that Luke is alone there. The presence of a hidden Jedi Academy is completely plausible within the bounds of what TFA, and even TLJ, showed us about the island.)
The reason for Luke's irritation with Rey becomes clear: by tracking Luke down, she is actually endangering all of his efforts. Luke's students aren't ready yet. If the First Order strikes now, all of Luke's efforts will have been for nought. He didn't even tell Han and Leia his true intent, to make sure that Snoke -- who we know excels at penetrating someone's mind from afar, since TFA establishes he did that to Ben -- could not take the truth from their minds unwittingly. When Rey reveals that Han is dead, Luke's sorrow only increases. But it does lead him to question himself. Was he right to retreat? He did it for his pupils, to keep them safe, but has he caused his best friend's death? Would Han still be there, if Luke had remained by his side? Or would they both be dead by now?
Rey is full of opinions, and wants Luke to fight the First Order. Luke tells her that being a Jedi means letting go of all that certainty. "Ben always felt he was so right about everything... he never doubted himself. But we should. We have to question our beliefs, Rey."
But Rey isn't ready to question her beliefs. She knows the First Order is waging war at that very moment. The Republic has been decapitated. Her new-found friends are in danger. Leia is in danger. Why won't Luke do something?! The answer is simple: because he thinks it'll make matters worse. He tells her that he was impulsive once, and wanted to save his friends. His Jedi Master told him not to go, but he did anyway. It was a costly mistake.
Rey doesn't want to hear it. Someone has to fight; to stand up tothe First Order. If Luke isn't willing, and won't allow his students, won't he then help Rey to master her own Force powers? If he won't act, she will. All she asks is that he helps her understand her gift. But Luke is not inclined to train Rey at all. She's impulsive, impatient, and prove to violent answers whenever challenged. She reminds Luke of young Ben. He asked for the same things Rey is asking now.
We now have a conflict between Rey and Luke. But the latter's issue isn't an uncharacteristic loss of hope: he is definitely still trying to fix his mistakes. Their conflict is about the correct approach. Rey thinks she can help if he trains her, he thinks he should solve it himself because she's not ready. Their goals are aligned, but their methods at odds. And they are both right. They both have something valuable to learn from each other. Rey needs to become truly ready (e.g. learn to have patience, see the wider picture, etc.) and Luke needs to learn that it's time to hand over excalibur to a new generation (he can't do it all himself; he has to become the mentor instead of the hero, and that means trusting the younger heroes to take on the responsibility). But neither one is quite ready to face these things.
Luke ends up not listening to her at first, which is why her psychic connection to Kylo becomes so dangerous. Rey is getting increasingly desperate, knowing her friends are in danger. Luke seems pointlessly cruel to her. This can be fortified by adding the plot point that she feels inadequate compared to Luke's actual students, who seemingly outclass her. It turns out, at least in her mind, that she really is a meaningless scavenger with no role in this adventure at all. Kylo plays into that, 100% the toxic manipulator. The viewer sees him for what he is, but Rey can't. So faced with Luke's rejection, and Kylo's offered hand, she allows her abandonment issues (her fears) to guide her actions. She goes off to meet up with Kylo.
This plays out much as we actually saw it in TLJ, with Kylo killing and supplanting Snoke. Rey escapes, Kylo pursues. They have both chosen: she is a hero, he is a villain. A clash is now inevitable. It all comes down to a great battle on the surface, where Luke appears at the last minute, to help the heroes. Not as a hologram, but for real. With his students. The last of the Jedi enter the fight to save the day, and all our heroes manage to escape the trap and flee into hyperspace. Including Luke; he doesn't die here. Big reunion. Luke is steeling himself for Leia's anger because he went into exile, but she's just happy to have her twin back. Love wins out over our fears. Rey admits she was wrong about trusting Kylo. Luke admits he was wrong about Rey. Together, our heroes will continue the fight, and Luke will train Rey as a Jedi. Cut to credits. Roll John Williams score.
-----------------
None of this is illogical, none of this is at odds with TFA, none of this is at odds with established characterisation of anyone, none of this is at odds with the themes of Star Wars.
Could this be done far better if I were to also change things about TFA? Absolutely. TFA digs some really tricky pits we have to side-step to make a good story work. That's always the case with anything Abrams does, sadly. But as I've shown, it is completely possible to imagine a story-arc for Luke that follows up on TFA and yet has none of the stuff that many people hate so much about TLJ. All that stuff was avoidable, and the fact that we got that flawed story is entirely Rian Johnson's fault. No-one else is to blame for that. He didn't have to fuck up Luke's entire character; he chose to do it.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
Probably wise in hindsight, given Carrie Fisher's death, but it would remove the Luke-Leia reunion at the end. It's a tricky issue.
(They probably did know about her health issues, though. She's not in a big chunk of TLJ, and she's mostly sitting down. When standing, she's mostly filmed from the waist up, and probably not really standing at all.)
AnimalNoodles
Well-known member
I had this vague idea about Leia being the bad guy. Basically Kylos master would be this mysterious figure in a white cloak and featureless mirror mask. It does not speak itself, but only through servants it controls with the force like puppets. Not even Kylo truly understands who this is, but he has learned to fear and obey it. At some point it confronts Luke, and removes its mask.
Its Leia.
Leia was potentially as powerful as Luke. But when Luke trained Leia, Leia was unable to truly sublimate her anger and passion. In temperment, Luke was like his mother, but Leia was like her father. She kept touching the Dark Side. Fearing the consequences, both agreed that it would be best to discontinue training her.
At some point Leia begins to grow frustrated with the New Republic and her inability to fight the politics and corruption within it, the natural consequences of having inherited the infrastructure of the Empire. Leia comes to believe that a hard reset is in order, and only by clearing the board and rebuilding everything from the ground up can she hope to build a just society.
She concieves of a plan, to take control of the first order, restructure it, and use it as a tool to achieve her goals.
She obtains holocrons and begins to study the force in secret. When the time is right, she fakes her death, and disguises herself physically and in the force, and using her powers usurps control of the first order.
Dunno if this would work as a premise, but i like the idea of a frustrated Leia falling to the dark and being redeemed in the end by her brother.
Its Leia.
Leia was potentially as powerful as Luke. But when Luke trained Leia, Leia was unable to truly sublimate her anger and passion. In temperment, Luke was like his mother, but Leia was like her father. She kept touching the Dark Side. Fearing the consequences, both agreed that it would be best to discontinue training her.
At some point Leia begins to grow frustrated with the New Republic and her inability to fight the politics and corruption within it, the natural consequences of having inherited the infrastructure of the Empire. Leia comes to believe that a hard reset is in order, and only by clearing the board and rebuilding everything from the ground up can she hope to build a just society.
She concieves of a plan, to take control of the first order, restructure it, and use it as a tool to achieve her goals.
She obtains holocrons and begins to study the force in secret. When the time is right, she fakes her death, and disguises herself physically and in the force, and using her powers usurps control of the first order.
Dunno if this would work as a premise, but i like the idea of a frustrated Leia falling to the dark and being redeemed in the end by her brother.
It's interesting to see this different take on TLJ, but I'm curious what you would have done with the whole trilogy. I know a lot of people like elements from what we did get and just want to kind of change things a bit to make it work better (I could even go that way myself), but there are others who would just adapt something from the EU, and others who would just go an entirely different direction. One of the more intriguing ideas I saw here was the idea that Rey was actually a non-force sensitive daughter of Han and Leia who took on the smuggler's life as a way of rebelling from her parents and her force-sensitive siblings, one of whom turns into Kylo Ren, and she then has to work to turn him back.
Actually you aren't the first one I've seen suggest that Leia is more like her father than Luke is, but you are the first I've seen suggest that she might have made a good antagonist. That's actually pretty interesting on its own, but can you imagine the screeching from the feminist crowd?
KilroywasNOTHere
"BEEP!"
I would have done a knights of the eternal empire type story where The old guard and a new generation of heroes has to battle and imposing and powerful force faction unlike anything the galaxy has faced before or at least hasion't in thousands of years if you want to bring back the old sith empire.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
I can go in lots of directions with this. Trying to fix up the actual trilogy is a discipline all by itself. It's not actually my preferred way of approaching all this, because even though you can turn them into something good... I fundamentally don't like the idea of adding three more episodes. I have strong preference for long-form story-telling and I feel that the 'film saga' really does conclude with RotJ. Whatever we tell next is a follow-up tied to it, but to me, it's not really fitting as "the next three episodes of that story". Because that saga is complete already. My preferred approach to a follow up is more "Star Wars: The Next Generation".
Even if we commit to sequel films, though, there are some options that deviate wildly from the sequels that we got.
I'm going to list some alternatives that I am always happy to imagine:
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1) In some universe where I ran SW from the start, or at least the early '90s, I'd have made the prequels a few years earlier (different actors, no/less CGI, loads of script doctoring to improve dialogue). Then I'd have taken SW in a different direction in '99, after Zahn wrote Vision of the Future. In 1999/2000, make a mini-series adapting the Young Jedi Knights books, effectively introducing (the EU's) next gen characters on screen. Then, in 2005-2010, a way more heavily adapted high-budget series (think GoT level) based on the general premise of NJO. I'd do a lot differently there, because I have quibbles with the NJO series, but I'd strive to keep the best elements, and I'd work towards a similar conclusion. And when that ends, that would be the last thing featuring the OT heroes. Series set later and/or featuring other characters are very much possible, but avoid anything like the Denningverse. Leave the OT heroes' happy ending intact.
There can be little surprise that this would have been my ideal. I like a lot of the old EU, but I have long felt that the post-Endor stories ended up getting derailed in the end. This would be an opportunity to fix that, while doing something about the prequels, too.
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2) Assuming that's not possible, and we're working off the premise of "Disney buys it in 2012, what now?" ...then my preference would be to avoid sequel films, and instead make a Jedi Academy streaming series. Why would that work? Because it's simply "Hogwarts but with Jedi and in SPACE". It's not a complicated idea, and there's no reason for anyone to dislike it. If you want to both present a next generation of characters and draw in a next generation of viewers, this is ideal. The big draw overall is that people get to see the new Jedi Order that Luke is building back up. The complaints about not getting that in the sequels are legion, and this solves that.
Naturally, bring back Hamill (who was most eager to reprise his role anyway) to be the wise Jedi Master (and functionally the 'headmaster'), add a few Jedi he's trained since the OT as fellow "teachers" (copy some folks right from the EU if you want), and have a load of apprentices-in-training as the main characters. No galaxy-threatening plots under any circumstance! The New Republic has won. The OT's victory is not negated, but instead confirmed. The wider galaxy is doing fine. This is purely a series about smaller-scale adventures that enterprising young would-be Jedi might have. Hamill can do this for years without having to train for heavy action, because the stakes are relatively low and Luke's approach to teaching is "let the kids solve it for themselves if they can -- it'll be a great lesson". He only steps in when there's more serious danger.
The brilliant thing about this is that you could just track which main characters are most popular with the fans. And once these "graduate", just move those characters over to a spin-off where they have Jedi adventures all over the galaxy: Knights of the New Republic. Again, nothing too large-scale. Just cool adventures. Meanwhile, the Jedi Academy series can just keep going, introducing new, younger students as the older ones graduate. You can keep going as long as people keep watching.
This would also work perfectly well alongside other, "non-Jedi" series as well. Stuff akin to The Mandalorian, but set in the '30s ABY instead. You could create a whole streaming-based slew of SW series, with the initial one having Hamill as the big draw, and then you could probably get Fisher and maybe Ford for occasional cameos. As well as other established characters, like Ackbar and the droids et cetera. Maybe have Denis Lawson back as Wedge Antilles in a "Star Wars does Top Gun" style series, and have him be to the young starfighter pilots what Luke is to the young Jedi.
I stress again that Disney would never have gone for this, but it would probably have made everybody happy. Because it provides a load of opportunities for new stories, without fucking with anyone's happy ending. I can talk at some length about improving the sequels, or making different sequels... but this would be better than making sequel films.
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3) If you do have to make three new Episodes, it's proably more interesting to avoid Disney's disjointed attempt altogether. Go with George Lucas's plans for the sequels, instead. He had plans since at least 1980, although he put them in a drawer for decades. In 2010, he revisited them, and they went through multiple iterations. This culminated in a c. 50-page treatment (covering the whole hypothetical trilogy) that he co-wrote with Michael Arndt. This is what he presented to Disney in October 2012. The next day, they finalised the sale of LucasFilm.
As we know, Disney immediately decided to start deviating from Lucas's plans. But Arndt stayed on as the writer, and he initially changed Lucas's plans gradually. When Abrams came on board, he started demanding far more drastic changes. Ultimately, Arndt couldn't make his story work (at least not in time), and departed. Abrams took over as the lead writer, and this led to TFA as we know it.
Over the years, a lot about Lucas's plans has trickled out. It's a huge mess, though, with various things we know clearly referring to different iterations of what he was planning in the period 2010-2012, and even old ideas he had long before. Lucas initially planned for his sequels to be filmed around the year 2000, and lots of his older ideas show that. (For instance, the next gen characters would be teenagers, and the sequels would be about rebuilding the Republic.) When it became clear that the films would have to be set 15 years later than he imagined, he changed things around. Books like The Art of The Force Awakens reveal details about what was decided when, and that helps us piece together a timeline.
Interestingly, a lot of details from the sequels clearly did come from Lucas. They were just cannibalised and put into a very different context/framing. Luke was going to be in exile after a student betrayed him (but that student was an original character based on Darth Talon, whose design Lucas liked). Luke was going to be hesitant to train the young protagonist (but this would be resolved by the end of Episode VII). A son of Han and Leia was going to be seduced to the Dark Side (but this would happen during the trilogy, and Talon would be doing the seducing). There was going to be a planet-based superweapon on an ice world (but its design was nothing like Starkiller Base). There was going to be a shadowy villain who manipulated the 'fallen student' from the start (but it wasn't going to be Snoke).
That "shadowy villain", in fact, may well have been Palpatine in Lucas's version, too. He certainly intended that back in the day. He even outright mentioned that this was his plan: that Palpatine could become a ghost, too. An evil one. But by 2010, Lucas had changed that idea into Darth Maul being the evil mentor to Darth Talon. (This was when he still thought of the stoty as set 15 years earlier.) Darth Maul was going to be a criminal kingpin, even. That idea got re-purposed for Solo. We know Maul didn't make it into the 2012 treatment, but Talon did. She was to be "puppeteered by a mysterious entity".
My personal guess is that Lucas went back to "evil spectre Palpatine is behind it all", in his 2012 treatment. It was his original intent, and it was also in Dark Empire, which Lucas thought was great. If it had been planned from the start, it could even have been good. Maybe it could have tied the sequels into the overall saga a bit more (although I still think that effort would by definition be forced).
I've got a lot of notes on what Lucas thought about SW sequels, and when he thought it. The end result is still bare-bones, but gives us a decent idea of what he envisioned. It could be great. I have loads of ideas for filling in the gaps and writing a sequel treatment "based on the Lucas plans" (20.000 words and counting right now), but it's on the back burner presently. Kind of lost steam on that, and I'll pick it back up in the future. If I complete it, I'll post it here.
Bottom line: what we know of Lucas's ideas, incomplete as that knowledge is, sounds like the basis for a pretty cool story. I'd want to see it.
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4) If Lucas's treatment isn't up your alley, another option is to get a bunch of great writers and start discussing original ideas. Don't get hacks, like Disney did. There are great ideas all over the place, but studio management often has trouble identifying them. Many of the ideas I've seen suggested are bare-bones, but serve as potential seeds for wildly different sequel trilogies that could be absolutely amazing is executed well by capable people.
Examples include the suggestion young brought up just now (Rey was actually a non-force sensitive daughter of Han and Leia who took on the smuggler's life as a way of rebelling from her parents and her force-sensitive siblings, one of whom turns into Kylo Ren, and she then has to work to turn him back) or @AnimalNoodles's proposal regarding Leia as the villain (because, yes, I do agree that she is much more Vader's daughter than Luke ever was Vader's son).
Another option, that I've thought about before, was to present a Ben Solo-analogue (a son of Han and Leia, doesn't have to be the same guy) as an anti-Imperial fanatic, instead of a neo-Imperial. In such a scenario, a peace has been signed and an Imperial Remnant still exists... and he wants to destroy it. Make him the ultimate Cold Warrior expy, the kind of guy who advocated all-out first nuclear strike against the USSR, but set in the SW galaxy. Then the story becomes about choosing moderation, reason and forgiveness (even for those who may not deserve it) instead of persecuting vengeance to the bitter end, no matter how many innocents die in the cross-fire.
All these options have lots of potential, but do need a lot of work before they're ready. If spun out into quality works, they'd be better than the alternatives I've ranked lower here, but as it stands, I haven't seen any of these ideas worked out into a full treatment.
-----------------------------------
This gives you an idea of the options that I'd consider to be interesting and worth-while. Of course, sticking to the general outline of the sequels that we know while fixing their problems is also a viable option. I have extensive outlines for that, too. Also unfinished at present. (To be completely honest, the trash-can fire that is TRoS kind of killed my enthousiasm for even saving these sequels. No matter what you do, you're stuck basically re-writing TRoS from scratch. Barely anything in that film is worth salvaging.)
I can outline my ideas for how to generally fix the sequels, though. In fact, I see two routes you can go with this, so there's potential for two re-writes. This gets lengthy, and will take a while to write up, so I'll save that for a separate post.
I felt that The Force Awakens actually had a lot of potential.
The first thing I would change would be sticking to the originally planned storyline where Poe Dameron died in the TIE crash on Jakku and the Resistance fighter squadron that arrived on Takodana was led by Wedge Antilles. In the movie we got, they altered the storyline at the last minute because Dennis Lawson didn't want to reprise the role; I would consider recasting the role with a different actor to be an acceptable sacrifice to keep the character, in order to stick to the theme that this is the *classic* heroes showing up to save the day.
The other major change would I'd change Phasma's backstory so she isn't as senior in the First Order's leadership and she's actually a deep-cover agent for the Imperial Remnant. This would eliminate the plot hole of someone who is supposedly fanatically loyal to the First Order powering down the shields at gunpoint when she could have just as easily used the computer to activate a security lockdown. The Remnant *is* supposed to exist anyway as a backstory element in the Disney canon, it's just so minimized that you only see vague references to it in the books and website and pretty much nothing in the actual movies. In my opinion, it would be an interesting plot element that since the First Order are supposed to be rogue Imperial hardliners, the Resistance movement finds itself actually working *with* elements of the Imperial Remnant to preserve the peace. So the alternate version of Phasma would basically be a hook for bringing that element in during the second film.
I'd want Starkiller Base to still be a superweapon facility, but less of a Death Star ripoff. Maybe make it a movie incarnation of the Galaxy Gun from Legends, and have the First Order using it in a more covert manner to destabilize the fragile peace between the Remnant and the New Republic instead of semi-magically transforming from a *small* faction of Imperial hardliners to this huge neo-Empire with very little explanation as to how they're *getting* all these resources. Make it more consistent with the Mandalorian reverse-tie in that has Imperial loyalist forces being a scattering of warlords and hardliners rather than a single unified conspiracy, with the First Order being more of a shadow force.
The first thing I would change would be sticking to the originally planned storyline where Poe Dameron died in the TIE crash on Jakku and the Resistance fighter squadron that arrived on Takodana was led by Wedge Antilles. In the movie we got, they altered the storyline at the last minute because Dennis Lawson didn't want to reprise the role; I would consider recasting the role with a different actor to be an acceptable sacrifice to keep the character, in order to stick to the theme that this is the *classic* heroes showing up to save the day.
The other major change would I'd change Phasma's backstory so she isn't as senior in the First Order's leadership and she's actually a deep-cover agent for the Imperial Remnant. This would eliminate the plot hole of someone who is supposedly fanatically loyal to the First Order powering down the shields at gunpoint when she could have just as easily used the computer to activate a security lockdown. The Remnant *is* supposed to exist anyway as a backstory element in the Disney canon, it's just so minimized that you only see vague references to it in the books and website and pretty much nothing in the actual movies. In my opinion, it would be an interesting plot element that since the First Order are supposed to be rogue Imperial hardliners, the Resistance movement finds itself actually working *with* elements of the Imperial Remnant to preserve the peace. So the alternate version of Phasma would basically be a hook for bringing that element in during the second film.
I'd want Starkiller Base to still be a superweapon facility, but less of a Death Star ripoff. Maybe make it a movie incarnation of the Galaxy Gun from Legends, and have the First Order using it in a more covert manner to destabilize the fragile peace between the Remnant and the New Republic instead of semi-magically transforming from a *small* faction of Imperial hardliners to this huge neo-Empire with very little explanation as to how they're *getting* all these resources. Make it more consistent with the Mandalorian reverse-tie in that has Imperial loyalist forces being a scattering of warlords and hardliners rather than a single unified conspiracy, with the First Order being more of a shadow force.
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AnimalNoodles
Well-known member
They messed up the first order bad, and this was because they didnt want to risk the idea of creating a cool antagonist, as they they thought this would lead to white kids beating up minorities. I shit you not.
My first order would have been founded by Thrawn as a secret project initiated by him after the first death star was destroyed. He and a few of his fellow admirals stashed scientists, starships, cloning equipment, droid fabs etc etc in a secret location in the known regions. This location is special, because i would borrow the starforge idea. Thrawn found it and kept it secret.
When the Emperor died, Thrawns allies took advantage of the chaos and moved thier fleets to this hidden location. They grew themselves a clone army with every clone being engineered for its task, and manufactured a vast droid workforce.
Finn was one these clones. He would have been stronger and faster than than the average human, and a highly trained badass.
My idea for Finn was similar to Kurt Russels character in Soldier..stoic, efficient but starting to struggle with his conditioning. In TFA he doesnt massacre the prisoners..my Finn would have. And this would haunt him. He is different. Why? Because unlike the other clones, Finn is a latent force user.
When thrawn returned they conquered a large domain in the unknown regions, creating a spartan-like military state, a harsh, authoritarian military meritocracy and then began waging a war of subversion against the republic. Its at this point that a disguised Leia shows up.
My first order would have been founded by Thrawn as a secret project initiated by him after the first death star was destroyed. He and a few of his fellow admirals stashed scientists, starships, cloning equipment, droid fabs etc etc in a secret location in the known regions. This location is special, because i would borrow the starforge idea. Thrawn found it and kept it secret.
When the Emperor died, Thrawns allies took advantage of the chaos and moved thier fleets to this hidden location. They grew themselves a clone army with every clone being engineered for its task, and manufactured a vast droid workforce.
Finn was one these clones. He would have been stronger and faster than than the average human, and a highly trained badass.
My idea for Finn was similar to Kurt Russels character in Soldier..stoic, efficient but starting to struggle with his conditioning. In TFA he doesnt massacre the prisoners..my Finn would have. And this would haunt him. He is different. Why? Because unlike the other clones, Finn is a latent force user.
When thrawn returned they conquered a large domain in the unknown regions, creating a spartan-like military state, a harsh, authoritarian military meritocracy and then began waging a war of subversion against the republic. Its at this point that a disguised Leia shows up.
Phasma felt like she could've played a role as a sergeant mook. I blame the shitty comics that portray her as a compulsive backstabber whose sole goal is to survive.
You could introduce Natasi Daala through this as well.
In EU she was at the Maw installation when the Empire went down, a place that sounds quite similar to what you're describing here.
And she a strong female character on par with Mara Jade and one of my favorite Imperials (Sith and Galactic Empire).
The problem with Daala is that she's *described as* a strong and skilled female admiral, but what we *actually get* in the stories is an "admiral" who is pretty much only competent at murdering other Imperials. Outside of that, all she ever does is grab the idiot ball really hard and lose every time.
Thrawn is pretty much the only Imperial who isn't railroaded by act of plot into being the Idiot Ball Brigade.
Bassoe
Well-known member
First off, highest priority is to re-hire the old authors and continue writing more books set in the old and vastly superior EU canon. Just have some kind of label declaring that the books and movies take place in separate canons and ignore the changes the new movies make if necessary.
Step #1. Ditch all actors from the original trilogy on grounds of age, contracts demanding they leave after one movie and ridiculous pay requirements. Hire new no-name actors who look similar to the original trilogy actors in their prime. Basically Star Trek 2009's trick only be even smarter about it and try to recruit from the existing Star Wars fandom to ensue familiarity and willingness to work for lower pay on the condition of literally starring in their favorite franchise.
Step #2. Create an adaptation of Heir to the Empire with Timothy Zahn in charge of writing the script and Mark Hamill as director.
Step #3. Continue adapting the rest of The Thrawn Trilogy.
Episode VII - Heir to the Empire
Episode VIII - Dark Force Rising
Episode XI - The Last Command
Next comes a standalone young Han Solo movie which is either an adaptation of Scoundrels or Han Solo at Star's End.
If Disney hasn't kicked me out yet, next will either be a Yuuzhan Vong Wars trilogy with a more H R Giger aesthetic than the "everything is made of lumpy coral, spikes, tentacles or some combination of the above" used in canon or a Knights Of The Old Republic prequel trilogy.
....
If Disney refuses to let me do this and insists on an original story, I've also got a few miscellaneous ideas.
New characters:
Rey
A war orphan living on jakku and scavenging wreckage from the same battle which caused that state of affairs. During the attack on her home, she used the force for the first time in self-defense. Along with the chaos caused by Finn's defection, this is the only reason which there were survivors of the jakku attack. Simultaneously one of the only witnesses to the jakku attack and a potential jedi candidate. Also a potential problem if her first force use was something destructive like strangling a TIE Bomber pilot midflight and now she has an un-jedi desire to take revenge for the attack.
Poe Syndulla (yeah, this guy with a green wig and name change to avoid licensing fees from the old EU)
One of Luke's new jedi, sent to investigate the attack on jakku, thus providing an actual explanation for his extremely non-military hotheadedness and tendency to treat orders as more like suggestions, he's not actually part of the new republic military.
Finn
All of Finn's best scenes as a character were the ones playing up his woobie nature, general unwitting heroism and adorkable lack of otherwise-common knowledge caused by having been abducted as a child during a prior raid as an unwilling stormtrooper "recruit". Furthermore what he meant as a character, effectively humanizing the stormtroopers while simultaneously making them back into a credible threat to protagonists. Having him suddenly start cheering on takodana when Poe is shooting down TIEs was completely out of character and the supposed deleted scene from TLG where he tries to convince stormtroopers aboard the Supremacy to likewise defect before Phasma killed them should have happened. His knowledge of the imperial remnant makes him extremely important.
Kylo Ren
The concept of Kylo Ren was one of the few genuinely clever moments Disney's writing team had. They knew everyone would be constantly comparing their villain to Darth Vader so they made that his chief characterization from an in-universe perspective. He's not Darth Vader, he's a mashup of an imperial equivalent of Luke's experiences in ANH, Cosmo Lavish but with Lord Vader instead of Vetinari and a crazed Darth Vader fanboy. He's got a homemade lightsaber and cosplay outfit, he tries to act as Vader-ish as possible, etc. If SB/SV have holonet equivalents, he's probably an active poster.
Making him the child of Han and Leia was the mistake. His parents should have been new characters, low-level bureaucrats in the Imperial system. When the empire was defeated, they were either killed in retaliation for prior abuses of their power or simply as collateral damage in the general chaos inevitable whenever a government collapses. Possibly go with some of the unused concepts for Rebels that had a relationship between Captain Vult Skerris and Arihnda Pryce to flesh out the universe and justify Pryce’s seemingly unprofessional hatred of Hera. His childhood was full of propaganda about how good the empire was and his experiences of life under the empire vs post-empire life effectively confirmed them for him.
Then the self-appointed Supreme Leader of the imperial remnant found him and more specifically, found that he was force-sensitive and offered him the opportunity to become like the "heroes" in his propaganda-fueled fantasies. The Supreme Leader doesn't think of him as an actual, proper sith, just as a useful idiot aimed at the Supreme Leader's enemies by fake praise.
His character arch throughout the trilogy is casting aside this joke of a character premise, killing the Supreme Leader and ruling in his place as a proper sith lord.
The Supreme Leader
Not "Snoke". Sith No One Knew Existed jokes aside, it was a stupid name. Besides, he isn't a sith or any kind of force user. He's a former imperial navy captain turned pirate, unable to surrender to the new republic since he's committed enough war crimes already he'd inevitably be executed. His "empire" is literally just a single deteriorating star destroyer which he keeps supplied by pillaging sparsely-defended minor planets and shipping and this is going increasingly wrong for him as his antique equipment continues to wear out and Luke's new jedi order mops up enough of the galaxy's more major threats to start prioritizing hunting down people like him. His only hope of getting out of this situation is Kylo Ren who thinks he's actually qualified as a sith lord and a bunch of fragmentary documentation about sith including a holocron he can't actually activate on grounds of not being force sensitive with which to maintain this deception and try to train Kylo enough to make him useful, not enough that the Rule Of Two comes into play.
TR-8R
A stormtrooper in Finn's former squad a bit upset about the whole abandonment and betrayal thing. Restores the generic enemy minions to being genuine threats. Based off how powerful jedi were in the prequel trilogy and some of the worst EU novels, Obi-Wan shouldn't have needed to sneak around Mos Eisley and hire a pilot but could have simply singlehandedly killed every stormtrooper in the place and hijacked a star destroyer. Survives the movie, although he loses an arm in the process. Will be back in the next movie, even angrier and with a prosthetic incorporating his anti sonofabitch stick.
....
Jakku shouldn't be yet another desert planet. The moon of a gas giant, the gravity of which leads to absolutely massive tides. The star destroyer shipwreck goes from entirely submerged to exposed on a sudden beach. Imagine it encrusted with barnacles.
....
No more superweapons. Fire any directors who are incapable of writing a plot without needing to resort to them.
....
Ditch the inferior R2D2 knockoff, or if the marketing team absolutely insists, he needs to be redesigned. Yes I know there was a physical prop, but BB8 looks like bad CGI. Which is actually kind of impressive, given that it's a physical prop, but still, not something I want in my movie.
....
No redesigned imperial equipment. Most of it looked stupid and the imperial remnant should barely have the resources to keep what they've got functional, let alone build bigger versions.
Step #1. Ditch all actors from the original trilogy on grounds of age, contracts demanding they leave after one movie and ridiculous pay requirements. Hire new no-name actors who look similar to the original trilogy actors in their prime. Basically Star Trek 2009's trick only be even smarter about it and try to recruit from the existing Star Wars fandom to ensue familiarity and willingness to work for lower pay on the condition of literally starring in their favorite franchise.
Step #2. Create an adaptation of Heir to the Empire with Timothy Zahn in charge of writing the script and Mark Hamill as director.
Step #3. Continue adapting the rest of The Thrawn Trilogy.
Episode VII - Heir to the Empire
Episode VIII - Dark Force Rising
Episode XI - The Last Command
Next comes a standalone young Han Solo movie which is either an adaptation of Scoundrels or Han Solo at Star's End.
If Disney hasn't kicked me out yet, next will either be a Yuuzhan Vong Wars trilogy with a more H R Giger aesthetic than the "everything is made of lumpy coral, spikes, tentacles or some combination of the above" used in canon or a Knights Of The Old Republic prequel trilogy.
....
If Disney refuses to let me do this and insists on an original story, I've also got a few miscellaneous ideas.
New characters:
Rey
A war orphan living on jakku and scavenging wreckage from the same battle which caused that state of affairs. During the attack on her home, she used the force for the first time in self-defense. Along with the chaos caused by Finn's defection, this is the only reason which there were survivors of the jakku attack. Simultaneously one of the only witnesses to the jakku attack and a potential jedi candidate. Also a potential problem if her first force use was something destructive like strangling a TIE Bomber pilot midflight and now she has an un-jedi desire to take revenge for the attack.
Poe Syndulla (yeah, this guy with a green wig and name change to avoid licensing fees from the old EU)
One of Luke's new jedi, sent to investigate the attack on jakku, thus providing an actual explanation for his extremely non-military hotheadedness and tendency to treat orders as more like suggestions, he's not actually part of the new republic military.
Finn
All of Finn's best scenes as a character were the ones playing up his woobie nature, general unwitting heroism and adorkable lack of otherwise-common knowledge caused by having been abducted as a child during a prior raid as an unwilling stormtrooper "recruit". Furthermore what he meant as a character, effectively humanizing the stormtroopers while simultaneously making them back into a credible threat to protagonists. Having him suddenly start cheering on takodana when Poe is shooting down TIEs was completely out of character and the supposed deleted scene from TLG where he tries to convince stormtroopers aboard the Supremacy to likewise defect before Phasma killed them should have happened. His knowledge of the imperial remnant makes him extremely important.
Kylo Ren
The concept of Kylo Ren was one of the few genuinely clever moments Disney's writing team had. They knew everyone would be constantly comparing their villain to Darth Vader so they made that his chief characterization from an in-universe perspective. He's not Darth Vader, he's a mashup of an imperial equivalent of Luke's experiences in ANH, Cosmo Lavish but with Lord Vader instead of Vetinari and a crazed Darth Vader fanboy. He's got a homemade lightsaber and cosplay outfit, he tries to act as Vader-ish as possible, etc. If SB/SV have holonet equivalents, he's probably an active poster.
Making him the child of Han and Leia was the mistake. His parents should have been new characters, low-level bureaucrats in the Imperial system. When the empire was defeated, they were either killed in retaliation for prior abuses of their power or simply as collateral damage in the general chaos inevitable whenever a government collapses. Possibly go with some of the unused concepts for Rebels that had a relationship between Captain Vult Skerris and Arihnda Pryce to flesh out the universe and justify Pryce’s seemingly unprofessional hatred of Hera. His childhood was full of propaganda about how good the empire was and his experiences of life under the empire vs post-empire life effectively confirmed them for him.
Then the self-appointed Supreme Leader of the imperial remnant found him and more specifically, found that he was force-sensitive and offered him the opportunity to become like the "heroes" in his propaganda-fueled fantasies. The Supreme Leader doesn't think of him as an actual, proper sith, just as a useful idiot aimed at the Supreme Leader's enemies by fake praise.
His character arch throughout the trilogy is casting aside this joke of a character premise, killing the Supreme Leader and ruling in his place as a proper sith lord.
The Supreme Leader
Not "Snoke". Sith No One Knew Existed jokes aside, it was a stupid name. Besides, he isn't a sith or any kind of force user. He's a former imperial navy captain turned pirate, unable to surrender to the new republic since he's committed enough war crimes already he'd inevitably be executed. His "empire" is literally just a single deteriorating star destroyer which he keeps supplied by pillaging sparsely-defended minor planets and shipping and this is going increasingly wrong for him as his antique equipment continues to wear out and Luke's new jedi order mops up enough of the galaxy's more major threats to start prioritizing hunting down people like him. His only hope of getting out of this situation is Kylo Ren who thinks he's actually qualified as a sith lord and a bunch of fragmentary documentation about sith including a holocron he can't actually activate on grounds of not being force sensitive with which to maintain this deception and try to train Kylo enough to make him useful, not enough that the Rule Of Two comes into play.
TR-8R
A stormtrooper in Finn's former squad a bit upset about the whole abandonment and betrayal thing. Restores the generic enemy minions to being genuine threats. Based off how powerful jedi were in the prequel trilogy and some of the worst EU novels, Obi-Wan shouldn't have needed to sneak around Mos Eisley and hire a pilot but could have simply singlehandedly killed every stormtrooper in the place and hijacked a star destroyer. Survives the movie, although he loses an arm in the process. Will be back in the next movie, even angrier and with a prosthetic incorporating his anti sonofabitch stick.
....
Jakku shouldn't be yet another desert planet. The moon of a gas giant, the gravity of which leads to absolutely massive tides. The star destroyer shipwreck goes from entirely submerged to exposed on a sudden beach. Imagine it encrusted with barnacles.
....
No more superweapons. Fire any directors who are incapable of writing a plot without needing to resort to them.
....
Ditch the inferior R2D2 knockoff, or if the marketing team absolutely insists, he needs to be redesigned. Yes I know there was a physical prop, but BB8 looks like bad CGI. Which is actually kind of impressive, given that it's a physical prop, but still, not something I want in my movie.
....
No redesigned imperial equipment. Most of it looked stupid and the imperial remnant should barely have the resources to keep what they've got functional, let alone build bigger versions.