What screams "the author didn't think of the implications"?

Typhonis

Well-known member
In Harry Potter? Parchment. Hell writing in general. Let me ask you a question, what is parchment? Treated animal hides. It is expensive stuff heck by the late 18th early 19th century it was only used for important documents. Diplom's, officer's commissions, etc. So why is it treated like paper by Rowling?

Papermaking has been around since the 1400s. Why don't we see more paper use in Hogwarts? Imagine how many sheep, goats, or calves are required to make a two-foot long roll of parchment. Shoot you have to prepare parchment for writing. You have to line it and dust it to ensure a good writing surface.

The whole writing mess is one giant problem in Harry Potter.

Some videos for thought.



 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
One that bugs me I was reminded of recently is the Honor Harrington series.

We're told early on that Battlecruisers are primarily missile platforms while Dreadnoughts are primarily direct energy platforms.

Missiles outrange direct energy by a large margin.

Battlecruisers are significantly faster than Dreadnoughts, with an acceleration about 50% higher.

Which means that in practice, a Battlecruiser should be able to "Kite" a Dreadnought and pepper it with missile fire from significantly outside the Dreadnought's effective range. Even if a single Battlecruiser couldn't pull that off, a comparable weight should be able to casually tear it apart.

The excuse given later by the author when he was asked about this is that Battlecruisers use smaller, less effective missiles than Dreadnoughts and thus can't actually hurt them. Which only invites further questions, such as why they don't throw the ineffective missiles in the trash and put the ones that can hurt enemy ships on the Battlecruisers. Especially since they later deploy Ferret class Light Attack Craft (Basically space fighters) which carries 56 ship-killer missiles and these LACS are able to fight Dreadnoughts and win, so it's not like the Battlecruiser is too small for ship-killers if they're fighter-mountable in such large numbers.

I've noted before that within seconds of Honor Harrington getting to the rank that she can fly Superdreadnoughts, they suddenly upgrade to become super missile platforms allowing her to not have to deal with the tactical problem that Dreadnoughts, by the way they were described, were completely useless until Honor was promoted enough to use them and the new models shipped at the same time.
 

Firebat

Well-known member
Imagine how many sheep, goats, or calves are required to make a two-foot long roll of parchment.
Wizards can re-stock with a wave of a wand. Harry did it with wine, getting perfectly good wine out of thin air.
Ditto for lining, dusting and anything else. It's magic. Wizard did it.
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
The people I mention don't care for anime. The just like doing murderhobo adventures of travelling from town to town finding whatever job is available and doing it. No guild.
Can you resist burying your head in pedantry to actually respond to my point sometime? Also dropping the false binaries would be great.



What are we even discussing here at this point? GS or just generic fantasy?
Both, and several other things, try and keep up, I shouldnt have to hold your hand.


It's not impossible that what you mention here happen we just don't see it.
What I mention would functionally eliminate what we see if the world we were being shown wasn't a badly conceived nonsense land.


Not everything is bounty boards as I already mentioned.
More false binaries! Great!

This would be like if in the first three episodes every character we saw on screen accidentally stabbed themselves at one point and I called it retarded, and you said "hey there are people off camera who might not be doing that".

Even in the limited context of what we see, it's still asinine and retarded.
You just cant help yourself with these crude strawmen.


what you mean is have your taste.
When "my taste" is "Dont literally eat handfuls of dirt and shit off the ground" then you can consider it an objective standard. I'm sorry I have to be the one to tell you this, but certain things are just bad and they should be called bad.


Also I have the position that I'd everything was like Tolkien, it would mean nothing special.
Well, thats pretty fucking silly.
Subjectivism is Leftist propaganda, my guy. Things can be good, and they can be bad.


that's why I said teen.
The number is irrelevant, she's got no titties, she's got no ass, she's ten inches tall, she's a loli. Why so defensive?

yes. In a world of constant heroes and constant hostile creatures running around, demon lords rising and falling. Not all noob adventures die and we even see that.
Which is massively retarded for the reasons I've detailed, and requires a world of literal pod people to function.


Like, do you even hear yourself? "Hey, not all the little girls we send into the rape murder cave die, therefore this system isnt retarded! It works... sometimes! Nothing that works shittily some of the time is bad!"

It's not like they fucking have to send the children, there are grown ass men everywhere in the series doing fucking nothing while a steady stream of kids are being hacked up, eaten, and fucked to death an hours walk away.


the girl is showing off cleavage and her thighs.the priestess wears clothes that you can see thighs too but not cleavage .
The girl is from a stone age setting and has headgear and a large shield. What the fuck does her modesty matter?

Also just an example that your position that your way is the only way that happened is not true.
I never fucking said that, but dont let reality and literacy stop you from translating my points through google six times in different languages and interpreting them in the most asinine way conceivable.
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
Is it even necessary to mention setting-breaking weapons here? The most recent major examples that I know of come from the Star Wars sequels.

-- A method to instantly destroy a vastly more powerful enemy ship now exists. This gets retconned to being "one in a million", but then in a later shot... we see it happening again. So while perhaps unlikely to succeed, it's not that unlikely. meaning that droid-piloted ships can now forever be used to kamikaze-swarm enemy capital vessels in a hyperspace ramming spree. One is eventually bound to hit, and small suicide ships are relatively cheap. Space warfare will never be the same.

-- Not that it matters, because the technology needed to instantly destroy any planet is now compact enough to be slapped onto a regular capital ship. Given what we see in the films, it is highly unlikely that every single baddie is dead, nor that the arms manufacturers (exclicitly depicted as completely amoral) will hesitate to sell the tech to the highest bidder in the conflict's aftermath. Proliferation can't realistically be prevented. Thus, there is now an arms race underway, and soon everybody is going to have planet-destroying weapons. In a setting where omnicidal evil space wizards exist (and always seem to rise up again), that's a recipe for an extinction war.
OK, so here's my pitch for a new star wars trilogy...



It is a thousand years since the events of Disney Wars and the galaxywide dark forest apocalypse unleashed by the discovery and proliferation of the tactic of hyperspace ramming when a crewman on a tiny salvage ship scavenging the coruscanti asteroid belt gets an inexplicable urge to look at a specific location and makes a potentially priceless find, an ancient droid, damaged but not irrecoverably, drifting amidst the debris, and in its memory banks, recordings of an age of magic and the secrets of how.

Space battles in the age of the hyperspace RKKV would be more like submarine warfare than fighter plane dogfights, taking place at a few light-minutes distance between ships firing FTL kinetic energy impactor torpedoes at where they guess their opponent is and moving around to keep their own position hidden by lightspeed lag. If two ships are close enough to actually see each other directly without lightspeed lag, fighting is basically guaranteed mutual suicide since the exploding fragments of a defeated ship hit with a hyperspace RKKV would themselves be traveling at a double-digit percentage of light speed and pulverize the victor like a shrapnel bomb.

Now imagine what an advantage having a force-sensitive pilot/gunnery officer would be in such a situation. They could know where enemy ships and projectiles were and where they'd be in a few minutes, they could gauge the hostility or lack thereof of their counterparts aboard other ships directly, making contact possible without the unwieldy system of multi-stage dead drops and smaller secondary spacecraft otherwise necessary to avoid the risk of getting RKKVed to death, etc.

Star Wars, Episode X, The Dark Forest
Star Wars, Episode XI, A Light In The Darkness
Star Wars, Episode XII, Forest Fire

Hire me Disney!
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
So, in the Killzone universe (a cruelly mistreated franchise that has real potential) the Helghast, a race of mutated humans left to die on a death world, invade a garden world called Vekta. This world, the primary human colony in the alpha centuari system, has hundreds of millions of inhabitants and massive urban centres.

The veritable space Nazis thusly overwhelm Vektan defences and have uncontested orbital supremacy for multiple days. You'd imagine they'd kill millions of a people they despise as their jackboots click in unison to inexorable victory.

Do you know what the casualties were?

Roughly 110000 (including both civilian and military. The latter makes up a tenth of that).

A planetary invasion of a world with hundreds of millions of inhabitants (at least. It could be in excess of a billion), doesn't even kill a quarter of a million people.

A planetary invasion led by space Nazis.

To get numbers that low, you have to actively avoid civilian casualties, which hilariously undermines Helghast cruelty and malice. I don't think the author meant to do that...
 

Urabrask Revealed

Let them go.
Founder
Wtf? I LOVE Helghast now...
Looking at the backstory of Killzone, you can also draw the conclusion that the Helghast were justified in their invasion of Vekta as it was their original world to begin with. They demanded a toll for ships passing through their system, and offered excellent service in return, the Earth regime, called the UCN, took offense at them working with the territory they sold to them, and invaded. After the UNC defeated the Helghan government, they exported colonists en masse to Vekta and forced the Helghast to resettle to Helghan. Admittingly, that was after the Helghast carried out a guerilla war, but still, you can see why the Helghast are mad at the Vektans and Earth.

EDIT: I decided to check the timeline of Killzone and see how things went down. To roughly summarize:
- The Helghast Corps secures the rights to colonize Vekta.
- Communications between Earth and Vekta are increasingly diffucult, the UCN is formed and installed as a government system for the colonies in the Alpha Centauri system.
- As agricultural output increases and the colonization of Helghan allows for fuels and energies to be exported at high prices, ships travel through the Vekta system at an increased rate. By supplying, maintaining, and refueling these ships, the Helghast Corps makes quite a lot of money.
- Eventually the Helghast Protectorate is formed as communications between Vekta and Helghant improved to the point where communication was real-time.

I will let the situation of that time speak for itself:
Helghan taxes and energy are now pouring directly into the Vektan market without going through the ISA, whilst Vekta provides Helghan with a wider and healthier variety of foodstuffs and luxuries. Employment is at 95% and morale skyrockets on both worlds. A new emblem is created that is symbolic of the mutually dependent relationship between Helghan and Vekta - three interlinked arms labeled Peace, Justice and Freedom.

- A militia is formed, its officiers provided by the UCN/ISA
- As wealth increases, the Helghan Corps wish to take over as the primary government. An expanded charter is written, but the taxes and regulations placed on the coprs by the ISA is still present.
- Eventually, a surplus of taxes, set aside for emergency situations, is used to buy the Alpha Centauri system and place it under the care of the Helghan Corps. The UCN agrees, due to needing finances to support other less-functioning colonies.
- The Helghan system becomes a hub-system which every ship has to pass through to get anywhere. A tariff is placed on these ships, which local ship-owners are exempt from. This inspires some corps to resettle to the Helghan System.

As some can probably already tell, this is pretty much a rhyme on the American revolution.

- The UCN is alarmed by these developments and decide to start building up their Navy to take the Helghan System back.
- Negotiations for a settlement fail, and the First Extrasolar War begins.
- Long story short, after an initial win for Helghast, the UCN push the Helghast ships back and win the war. The helghan administration is shut down, its executives and senior civil servants arrested. Ultimativly, the UCN and ISA decide that the Helghan are too unruly and put the government back in the hands of the ISA. Colonists from Earth are exported to Vekta.
- In response to a guerilla war/terror campaign carried out by the Helghan loyalist remnants, the appointed ISA governeur curtails more and more rights of the first colonist. As a result, many prominent Helghan families pool their resources and request to be transfered to Helghan. Millions of Helghans are transported to that planet.
- In order to avoid footing the bill of this massive resettlement and having to deliver aid to the Helghast, the UCN/ICA declares the Helghan Administration as a sovereign nation, then places it under a blockade until "diplomatic relations are normalized".
- In spite of the harsh environment and the restrictions placed on the Helghans, they gradually begin to thrive. However, as their standards begin to improve, so does the peoples's anger at the restrictions placed upon them by the UCN/ICA.
- A number of industrial accidents (a rather weak term to describe the events), Helghan suffers a 20 year long economic downturn due to the costs of replacing the machinery that was lost and replaced.
- Visary begins to grow into power, breaking the ISA embargo by encouraging smuggling operations that allow for the Helghan Administration to resume selling their fuel and energy. He also expands the military of Helghan, modernizing and improving on its armament.
- The Second Extrasolar War is declared.

A more detailed description is under this link. The whole timeline reads like a futuristic American Revolution gone wrong.
The Timeline of Killzone
 
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Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
Wtf? I LOVE Helghast now...

A lot of people do. They also have some of the most badass aesthetic in sci-fi, coupled with a kickass theme, which helps.

It would seem Helghast consideration for non-combatants is universal. Before the Vektan ISA counterattack came, they evacuated their civilians from the capital city, and significant fleet elements of the Helghast Navy were used to do it.

Their villainy only really gets amped up in Killzone 3, but aside from that the Helghast seem more "brutal" than "evil."

Looking at the backstory of Killzone, you can also draw the conclusion that the Helghast were justified in their invasion of Vekta as it was their original world to begin with. Then they demanded a toll for ships passing through their system, and offered excellent service in return, the Earth regime, called the UCN, took offense at them working with the territory they sold to them, and invaded. After the UNC defeated the Helghan government, they exported colonists en masse to Vekta and forced the Helghast to resettle to Helghan. Admittingly, that was after the Helghast carried out a guerilla war, but still, you can see why the Helghast are mad at the Vektans and Earth.

Killzone has wonderfully written lore. Pity so little of it translates into the games.

That aside, it's not often you see space Nazis with casus belli, but Killzone's lore makes it painfully believable and understandable. Imma be controversial: Visari did nothing wrong.
 

Urabrask Revealed

Let them go.
Founder
That aside, it's not often you see space Nazis with casus belli, but Killzone's lore makes it painfully believable and understandable. Imma be controversial: Visari did nothing wrong.
It's no surprise that both Vekta and the ISA of it have so many turncoats and sympathisants to Helghan. The UCN went back on agreements, took the Helghan System from the corps by force, resettled the original colonists while replacing them with more obdient ones from Earth, and placed Helghan under a strict embargo that contributed the high mortality rate among the original generation on Helghan.
 

f1onagher

Well-known member
Um, I may be a little behind on modern terminology, but it sounds like the UCN ethnically cleansed the Helgast, on top of a cavalcade of legitimate economic and political grievances. What did the Helgast do to make them the bad guys? Otherwise, I'm going to be suitably impressed at a game series that lets you play as the bad guys.
 

Urabrask Revealed

Let them go.
Founder
Um, I may be a little behind on modern terminology, but it sounds like the UCN ethnically cleansed the Helgast, on top of a cavalcade of legitimate economic and political grievances. What did the Helgast do to make them the bad guys? Otherwise, I'm going to be suitably impressed at a game series that lets you play as the bad guys.
They are Space Nazis, so it's ok to ethnically cleanse and genocide them. They were the losers of the first Extra Solar War, so them being villainized and saddled with harsh punishments is to be expected. Like Imperial Germany, the First Nations of the USA, and the anglo-saxons of England, the Helghast too went down in history as the villain because they were too weak to defeat the enemy.

Otherwise, people might ask questions like "Why did we invade them again?" or "Was replacing the original colonists really necessary?", and the regime of the UCN can't have that in its ranks after all. General Stuart Adams was a hero for going against that.
 

Emperor Tippy

Merchant of Death
Super Moderator
Staff Member
Founder
One that bugs me I was reminded of recently is the Honor Harrington series.

We're told early on that Battlecruisers are primarily missile platforms while Dreadnoughts are primarily direct energy platforms.

Missiles outrange direct energy by a large margin.

Battlecruisers are significantly faster than Dreadnoughts, with an acceleration about 50% higher.

Which means that in practice, a Battlecruiser should be able to "Kite" a Dreadnought and pepper it with missile fire from significantly outside the Dreadnought's effective range. Even if a single Battlecruiser couldn't pull that off, a comparable weight should be able to casually tear it apart.

The excuse given later by the author when he was asked about this is that Battlecruisers use smaller, less effective missiles than Dreadnoughts and thus can't actually hurt them. Which only invites further questions, such as why they don't throw the ineffective missiles in the trash and put the ones that can hurt enemy ships on the Battlecruisers. Especially since they later deploy Ferret class Light Attack Craft (Basically space fighters) which carries 56 ship-killer missiles and these LACS are able to fight Dreadnoughts and win, so it's not like the Battlecruiser is too small for ship-killers if they're fighter-mountable in such large numbers.

I've noted before that within seconds of Honor Harrington getting to the rank that she can fly Superdreadnoughts, they suddenly upgrade to become super missile platforms allowing her to not have to deal with the tactical problem that Dreadnoughts, by the way they were described, were completely useless until Honor was promoted enough to use them and the new models shipped at the same time.


There are two primary types of Honorverse missiles. The first use a regular old nuke, the second use a bomb pumped laser warhead. In the case of laser heads, the maximum range at which they can expect to put enough energy through a warships defenses to cause damage is ~20,000 kilometers. In the case of traditional nukes, the maximum effective range is under 10 kilometers and generally requires first physically penetrating the sidewalls (which is less than coin flip odds in the best of circumstances).

There is some variability is actual warhead yield between various classes of warhead but that is more an issue of expense than anything else as more powerful laser heads are a consequence of more powerful gravity lensing to focus the nuclear detonation.

The issue with missiles vs. capital ships (SD's and DN's) is (before pods) that the ships active and passive defenses had decisively won the offense vs. defense fight. No single combatant (regardless of class) could realistically expect to get any hits against an SD or DN with missiles; they simply could not fire enough to reliably penetrate those defenses. And even then, an SD/DN is so tough that the odd missile hit was basically irrelevant.

Missiles vs. capital ships in the Honorverse is a fight that the missiles only win when so many missiles are targeted on a ship that they can reliably swamp the ships defenses. Basically, when more missiles can be fired at the ship in a given span of time than its defenses can intercept. And that number isn't dozens of missiles, it isn't hundreds of missiles, it is a thousand plus missiles per SD/DN if you want reliable destruction.

What made pods so much of a game changer is that it allowed a launch large enough to reliably swamp a target ship. And what SD(p)'s did was allow that salvo size to be repeated salvo after salvo or for the SD(p) to essentially arbitrarily increase the size of a single salvo until it was large enough to swamp a given targets defenses.

A battlecruiser can't throw enough missiles fast enough to swamp a capital ships defenses, nor does it materially outrange the capital ship. So if the BC tries to kite the DN or SD, the capital ship will just fire its own missiles at the BC and even a capital ship with a "light" missile load is still able to fire more in a given salvo than a BC is.

What allowed LAC's to take out capital ships was the fact that they were firing their missiles at basically point blank range and from every angle. They would englobe the target and launch quite close.

As for energy weapons vs. missiles. Ton for ton, energy weapons are fantastically more powerful and capable. As in a single graser mount on a BC is comparable in yield to dozens to hundreds of laser heads.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
There are two primary types of Honorverse missiles. The first use a regular old nuke, the second use a bomb pumped laser warhead. In the case of laser heads, the maximum range at which they can expect to put enough energy through a warships defenses to cause damage is ~20,000 kilometers. In the case of traditional nukes, the maximum effective range is under 10 kilometers and generally requires first physically penetrating the sidewalls (which is less than coin flip odds in the best of circumstances).
I'm aware of the tech, but several of your claims below are simply untrue.

The issue with missiles vs. capital ships (SD's and DN's) is (before pods) that the ships active and passive defenses had decisively won the offense vs. defense fight. No single combatant (regardless of class) could realistically expect to get any hits against an SD or DN with missiles; they simply could not fire enough to reliably penetrate those defenses. And even then, an SD/DN is so tough that the odd missile hit was basically irrelevant.

Missiles vs. capital ships in the Honorverse is a fight that the missiles only win when so many missiles are targeted on a ship that they can reliably swamp the ships defenses. Basically, when more missiles can be fired at the ship in a given span of time than its defenses can intercept. And that number isn't dozens of missiles, it isn't hundreds of missiles, it is a thousand plus missiles per SD/DN if you want reliable destruction.

What made pods so much of a game changer is that it allowed a launch large enough to reliably swamp a target ship. And what SD(p)'s did was allow that salvo size to be repeated salvo after salvo or for the SD(p) to essentially arbitrarily increase the size of a single salvo until it was large enough to swamp a given targets defenses.

A battlecruiser can't throw enough missiles fast enough to swamp a capital ships defenses, nor does it materially outrange the capital ship. So if the BC tries to kite the DN or SD, the capital ship will just fire its own missiles at the BC and even a capital ship with a "light" missile load is still able to fire more in a given salvo than a BC is.
Bullshit.
Reliant class Battlecruiser: 52 Missile tubes, 32 counter-missile launchers, 32 point-defense mounts, 16 grasers
Gryphon class Superdreadnought: 40 Missile tubes, 28 counter-missile tubes, 30 point-defense mounts, 16 grasers (huh?)

Both made around 1900 from the same tech base. The SD has no overwhelming advantage in launchers nor defenses.

As an amusing side note, the same era/techbase Valiant class Light Cruiser is about 1/50th the size of the SD but is a short-ranged energy-weapon design, and for no apparent reason is slow like SDs are (we'll get to why this is so at the end).

Also why the hell would you need to send a single BC against a DN or SD? Based on mass you can get ten Reliants for the materiel cost of a single Gryphon or 50 Valiants. Granted it may not translate perfectly in tradeoff in terms of mass but you should still be able to get several of the BCs for every SD, and since they can casually kite SDs and englobe them, even if it's just five they would have a massive advantage.

What allowed LAC's to take out capital ships was the fact that they were firing their missiles at basically point blank range and from every angle. They would englobe the target and launch quite close.
Which BCs could do to SDs just as well given they can Kite SDs and should come in larger numbers. And how come those LACs can close to point blank range but a BC's missiles have trouble doing so? They use the same gravity-based technology for defense. Curious.

In fact let's take a closer look at the wedge and see why kiting would be so easy and effective. Here's the official diagram of an SD and it's wedge and sidewalls:

ROFHsFs.gif


Absolutely nothing gets through the wedge so as long as it's between you and the enemy direct-fire weapons can't do jack. Missiles have their own wedges so there's absolutely no reason a missile shouldn't fly just slightly off-course so that it's wedge is completely between itself and the target, then sharply turn at point-blank range and unleash it's payload of Xaser rays. Counter-missiles would still work since two wedges impact generally wrecks both, but not the normal PD clusters.

The same thing would work for a BC which should be able to render itself completely immune to an SD's direct-fire energy weapons by keeping it's wedge between itself and the SD, and simply firing it's missiles around it's own wedge (or rotating and firing in the space of a millisecond, as Honor does to get a point-blank down-the-throat shot in one story), probably using both broadsides at once and having your missiles turn after launch. This not only doubles your broadside fire (they do this in later books BTW), but allows you to send missiles towards the enemy from two vectors. Those big direct-energy weapons should be a massive albatross around the throats of any ship mounting them in large numbers.

But the gripping hand is that the combination of "much slower" and "much shorter range" shouldn't appear outside of niche applications. However in the Honorverse it's the standard, ships that aren't commanded by Honor Harrington tend to be slower and have a shorter range compared to ships she commands.

And again, it's really obvious in-setting, because he suddenly patched the setting with Podnaughts and direct-fire Dreadnoughts vanish right when Honor got to command them so that the issues would never appear onscreen. Adding to the obviousness of the issue, Light Cruisers in setting are direct-fire graser boats and they are also slower than battlecruisers which makes no sense if grasers are the domain of bigger vessels, but perfect sense if you haven't thought the setting through except to give the MC an unbeatable tactical advantage by making her ship both faster and longer-ranged than the competition all the time. Of course, Honor captained a Light Cruiser in her first book so she had a disadvant- no wait, the Courageous-class she commanded is somehow vastly faster than any other other LC including ones 100 years more advanced, and then she gets promoted to a Heavy Cruiser that is also somehow faster than everything else in it's class and a missile boat.

When Honor was commanding a LC she had the only model that can outrun and outrange everything else, same with her CA and later her BC. When she got to commanding SDs this should have been a problem since they were established to be laser boats, but somehow Podnoughts became a thing at the same time so she retained her tactical advantages. When LAC carriers were somehow greatly superior but Honor wasn't commanding one (in fact they were mostly in the book where she was in a military prison and thus they couldn't threaten her tactical advantage) they lasted all of one book and then everybody quit making them. Whatever Honor commands will turn out to be the best ship possible, faster and longer-ranged than her enemies.
 

Urabrask Revealed

Let them go.
Founder
The healing factors in Marvel.
technically, that makes X-23 (Wolverine's clone daughter) and Reine du Rien (Wolverine's alt universe sorceress daughter) permanent virgins, because it grows back every time.
That sounds like a hassle for them. Sure, it doesn't hurt if they are sufficiently turned on, but still...
 

Typhonis

Well-known member
Looking at the Honorverse stuff I have a question. Why not just fire large enough wedges to wreck enemy SDs? I mean if Wedge plus Wedge wrecks them why use laser heads at all?
 

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