ISOT What if Qing China (& Korea) were ISOT from 1888 back to 1513?

raharris1973

Well-known member
What if the Qing Dynasty Chinese Empire (along with its nearby tributary Kingdom of Korea), was ISOT from early 1888, back 375 years to 1513 AD?

This is the big green territory in East Asia I am talking about:

dNkBqun.png


Additionally, all British, Europeans, Japanese, and American people present disappear from the ISOTed region, transferred to another timeline and *not* traveling back in time with the 1888 version of China and Korea. This extends to anyone with a British, European, Japanese or American parent in China or Korea. But all British and European built property, machinery, infrastructure, and ships remain in place. Meanwhile, all members of 1888's worldwide Chinese diaspora are transported back to the territory of China, even second and third generation overseas Chinese. Same with any small number of expat Koreans there might have been.

The wider world of 1513 looks like this, except China occupies the larger geographic 'footprint' of the 1888 Qing Dynasty on the map- from Mongolia, Xinjiang, and Tibet to Taiwan, that was bigger than the geographic footprint of downtime 1513 Ming China.

nPMnVeF.png


How do the Chinese deal with their new, more primitive, world environment, where they have access to the most advanced technology in the world, future history, and the maps and major languages of the world that no one else has?

How do the Chinese deal with the arrival of the rather obnoxious and piratical Portuguese on their southern shores, their closest competitors in terms of geographic knowledge and transport technology in the world of 1513, when the latter start showing up at China's southern shores?
 
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Yinko

Well-known member
The Qing and Chinese in general have always considered the outside world not really worth it. Why bother with foreign barbarians when you are already the center of the world? Why go out to see the world when you can wait for the world to come kowtow at you feet?

You take great pains to give them all the tech with none of the foreigners, but without those foreigners or even half-foreign people there would be very little education at the time to understand what was built. You might argue that they would learn from their mistakes, overthrow Daoism and Confucianism in favor of a technological headstart that would see them safe with a several centuries head-start, but that completely ignores the Qing zeitgeist.

PBF154-Zuthulus_Resurrecti.png
 
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ATP

Well-known member
The Qing and Chinese in general have always considered the outside world not really worth it. Why bother with foreign barbarians when you are already the center of the world? Why go out to see the world when you can wait for the world to come kowtow at you feet?

You take great pains to give them all the tech with none of the foreigners, but without those foreigners or even half-foreign people there would be very little education at the time to understand what was built. You might argue that they would learn from their mistakes, overthrow Daoism and Confucianism in favor of a technological headstart that would see them safe with a several centuries head-start, but that completely ignores the Qing zeitgeist.

PBF154-Zuthulus_Resurrecti.png
Sadly,true.
Or,lucky for rest of world?
They could take back territories taken bt russians in 19th century,but that would be all.
And western technology would remain as emperors toys.
Well,except military - but even there they would not innovate.

Only possible difference - missionaries from Europe would get knowledge about possible future.
So,our Question should be how rulers in Europe react to knowledge about what happened till 1888.

I see Prussia stomped by PLC and Austria,and Turkey attacking Moscov after taking Hungary,not Austria or PLC.
France would probably try invade England,not fight Austria over Italy.
 

raharris1973

Well-known member
Ok - consensus is China is lethargic at this time. Did you see my similar scenario on what if this happens to Japan around a similar time?
 

Buba

A total creep
25 years earlier - same.
But by 1888 I guess that Japan was changing. No inflow of Western know-how, naturally, but a new mindset had already set in?
 

Buba

A total creep
I wonder how much of the Murata rifle was imported. I know that it was manufactured in Japan, but "manufactured" is a vague term. E.g. the Union in the ACW manufactured rifles from Brtish made steel ... same could apply here. Maybe falling back on black powder for several decades?
Probably no "modern" artillery as what holds for role of imported "inputs" in rifles is even more pertinent here.
But who cares about weapons?
This Flawed Beauty dates from 1893:
How soon before Japan manages to make its own locos here - 1895? 1900? Later? BTW - the Cap Gauge may end up the international standard here ... don't disparage it, the LOADING gauge is the same if not larger than that used in the UK on Standard Gauge rail.
This holds true across the width and breadth of science and industry - Japan knows what is possible but in many cases is incapable of replication - it must build machines to build machines to build machines ... metallurgy, chemicals, textiles, etc. etc.
Hence a certain drop in technical level, but I expect Japan to get back to 1887/8 level in a few decades. After that point, as it is alone in the world with such tech, progress will be slower than OTL. Japan can into space will become reality not in 1960 but decades later. Still, learning Japanese and katakana will be requisits for scholars in Europe :)
And, TBH pre-Meiji opening tech level is leading edge in 1513 :)

Regardless if there is a "Conquer China (or Die)" policy among the Meiji elite, trading with China requires silver. Meh, to trade with anybody in 1513 you need silver (or gold). Here Japan may very well clash with ... Spain. The Japanese know where Big Silver is - northwest Mexico - and will be establishing mines in Sonora or Nevada at the time Cortez will be fighting his way out of Tenochtitlan. Getting there will be exciting :) and the Old Way, i.e. using sailing ships. But the Manila Galeon Route makes it relatively easy.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
Ok - consensus is China is lethargic at this time. Did you see my similar scenario on what if this happens to Japan around a similar time?
1888 Japan in 1513?
They were arleady changing.So,take over Taiwan,Siberia,coast of Mexico as @Buba said,Caliphornia with its gold,Maybe Australia,too?
They should knew when australian golden mines were.

And,of course,spice islands.

They would rule on the seas,and take as much as possible of both Americas and Australia.
Probably not bother with invading China later.

Result - no spanish Empire or smaller,no british empire,too.
Europe - PLC with no cheap gold could actually survive.Especially,if they would knew about future polish history.
 

Buba

A total creep
@ATP - silver matters more than gold. While the Mediterranean Basin always has been bi-metallic, the Sinosphere has been silvercentric since time immemorial. Both the Japanese (and Chinese) mindset and realities of Far Eastern economies mean that gold is of much lesser concern.
 

Buba

A total creep
A good point raised by @raharris1973 on another site - there could be Chinese freeebooters puttting "free enterprise" ideas into action (probably Japanese as well, maybe even Korean too?), setting up their own statelets all over the Pacific area.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
A good point raised by @raharris1973 on another site - there could be Chinese freeebooters puttting "free enterprise" ideas into action (probably Japanese as well, maybe even Korean too?), setting up their own statelets all over the Pacific area.
Possible.I see chineese merchants from 1888 buing junks and go colonize Australia or Americas in 1888.
Even if China as state did notching.

I also see chineese christians doing the same,or maybe even going to Europe with their knowledge to help Faith.
 

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