What if Poland and Lithuania never unified? No Union of Krewo, 1385- no Union, ever

raharris1973

Well-known member
What if Poland and Lithuania never unified?

At least they never had a personal union lasting more than one generation and never had a joint constitution.

Let's also suppose for the purposes of this discussion that neither of form a long-lasting bond or Commonwealth with an alternative partner instead of each other (so no Polish-Hungarian or Polish-Bohemian Commonwealth, or Lithuanian-Muscovite Commonwealth)

How does each country likely develop differently internally over the next 400 years from 1385 or so? In terms of distinctiveness in terms of hereditary versus elective monarchy and balance of powers between the King/Grand Duke and estates/nobility?

How does each country's standing and position and strength and size in central and Eastern Europe likely evolve in the 400 years after 1385? Do either of them become completely extinct as a state or language by 1785, or far earlier?

How is the fate of the Jewish communities who lived there, grew there, and settled there altered by the starkly different politics? What about different impacts of the Reformation or the borderline with Orthodox Christianity?
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Could Poland simply directly absorb Lithuania in this TL? Or would that be excluded here as well?
 

raharris1973

Well-known member
Could Poland simply directly absorb Lithuania in this TL? Or would that be excluded here as well?

If they can physically conquer it. Lithuania isn't just going to surrender itself.

But I don't think they were any shape to do it in 1385. I think Lithuania was the much stronger partner. In the personal union, the Lithuanian Grand Duke Jogaila, as an adult man, was certainly the stronger partner, as opposed to the Polish Queen, who was an underage girl.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
If they can physically conquer it. Lithuania isn't just going to surrender itself.

But I don't think they were any shape to do it in 1385. I think Lithuania was the much stronger partner. In the personal union, the Lithuanian Grand Duke Jogaila, as an adult man, was certainly the stronger partner, as opposed to the Polish Queen, who was an underage girl.

I meant conquer it later on, when Polonia Stronk and Lithuania Weak.
 

Buba

A total creep
LOL!
On the Polish history forum this issue is a permanent source of heated debate, with the majority seeing the union as inevitable and a Good Thing, yet a vocal minority deeming it the Initio Calamiti Regni i.e. onset of Poland's disasters.
At least two threads ongoing on the topic, and several score of dead ones ...

By 1786 you can have absolutely any aftereffects of lack of 1386 putsch by Little Polish magnates calling in Jogaila and kicking out Wilhelm Habsburg.
Both Poland in space or a Lechistan Sultanate are possible (maybe the former a bit far fetched).
 
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Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
What if Poland and Lithuania never unified?
Well, that's a question that is rather not so common abroad when it comes to alternative history. In my opinion, we would simply have a continuation of the previous Piast policy. That is, strongly simplifying such France/England of the East. Poland would have remained constantly focused on the west rather than the east. We would have had Polish intervention in the Thirty Years' War, attempts to take back Silesia and New March. Subjugation of Pomerania and seizure of lands up to the Elbe. Possibly even attempts to conquer Bohemia.
How does each country likely develop differently internally over the next 400 years from 1385 or so?
Poland Proper may be even richer than it was OLT and this is due to the lack of Lithuanian lands by which investments that went there will go towards Polish lands. Lithuania will be poorer, the lack of a longer union is also the lack of Polish influence in the long run that expanded the country.
In terms of distinctiveness in terms of hereditary versus elective monarchy and balance of powers between the King/Grand Duke and estates/nobility?
Well that's a tough question, but one might be tempted to say that this ATL Poland would be an autocratic constitutional monarchy rather than a parliamentary one, but certain features of a republic were inevitable anyway. (There will be something called a mixed monarchy).

From what I conclude? The absence of the Jagiellons and thus the reliance on the magnates when it comes to power. Such an alternative ruler, (let's simplify that it is a Piast from the Mazovian branch of the family, let's call him Siemowit) due to the fact that he has no experience of ruling over Ruthenia will prefer a more classical approach of relying on the middle class. And this middle class supported the execution movement, the lack of Lithuanian miscreants from the upper classes, equals less resistance. The result should be a much more centralized Poland in which, although the Sejm is there, it is not decisive in everything.

Lithuania, on the other hand, looking at what was OTL, will most likely evolve into an oligarchy. Unlike ATL Poland where the nobility will be equal in rights and duties regardless of position, so here the lack of Polish influence means that social relations in Lithuania will be far less egalitarian, closer in this to the old Ruthenia.
How does each country's standing and position and strength and size in central and Eastern Europe likely evolve in the 400 years after 1385?
Well, Poland is likely to be a major power in the region, just like OTL. The foundations that allowed it to become this OTL were already laid by Casimir III, it's just that Poland will not be as great as OTL was. At the same time, due to the lack of a union, it will not get involved in eastern disputes. Thus, there will be no wars with Moscow, the Tatar invasions will be more of a Lithuanian problem than a Polish one. And that energy that was expended on wars in the east will be used for wars in the west.

Although certainly the map will differ significantly from what is known, so this is rather strong theorizing. Possible are, for example, a Polish-Moscow alliance through which Poland occupies the rest of Halich Ruthenia aka Red Ruthenia.

Poland may attempt eastern conquests using the title of King of Ruthenia and thus try to snatch Rus territories from Lithuania. One thing is certain, Lithuania will have considerable problems which it will have to solve on its own.
Do either of them become completely extinct as a state or language by 1785, or far earlier?
Lithuanian, they will succumb to Russification, which was also happening OTL, only the fact that Polishness was even more attractive made this trend stop and go in the Polish direction. Without Poland, it is even possible that Lithuanians will become Russified.
How is the fate of the Jewish communities who lived there, grew there, and settled there altered by the starkly different politics?
They will live in Poland, although it is possible that some King will decide that there is a need to make room for the Polish bourgeoisie and drive them out of the country. But rather they will stay and only smaller groups will go east.
What about different impacts of the Reformation
Few, though possible with the right ruler, is the rise of the Polish National Church. (Although this is doubtful looking at the OTL as well as the fact that Poland was under the Pope as sovereign not to have a German sovereign in the form of the Kaiser.
the borderline with Orthodox Christianity?
There is no Unician alias Greek Catholic church. Possible displacement of Orthodoxy from the territories of Polish Ruthenia.
Could Poland simply directly absorb Lithuania in this TL?
Possibly, under the casus belli of the King of Rus but it is not certain. Rather, it is more likely to take some pieces out of Lithuania.
I think Lithuania was the much stronger partner.
That's the wrong thinking, from the very beginning Poland was the stronger partner. Jagwiga's age did not matter much. She stood at the head of a more powerful and organized kingdom. Lithuania, on the other hand, was only big on the map, but in reality her power in many regions was weak and the ambitions of the Jagiellon family and their cousins got in each other's way. A good example is Jagiello's dispute with his brother Vitold.
 

Buba

A total creep
Without Poland, it is even possible that Lithuanians will become Russified.
Which does not mean adoption of Russian i.e. Muscovite identity.
Think adoption of Orthodox Christianity, the magnates and nobility speaking westernmost variants of the Rus dialect continuum, i.e. those evolving into Belarussian of today.
Look at Mongols and Mandzhurs in China, at the Juan and Qing respectively. Or at Liao and Kin. Or Bulgars. Or Normans. Or ... the list is endless ...

I think Lithuania was the much stronger partner.
What @Batrix said - Poland was always the stronger partner. And if not always, then from early 15th century onward. Lithuania was your generic flash-in-the-pan state, a bunch of tribals making it big due to weakness of more civilised neighbours which, after a century of "greatness", was doomed to crash&burn or to transform itself into a successor state of the conquered territories.
Jogailla's age, although not insignificant, was not that relevant, as he always ruled in Poland at the sufferance of (Little) Polish lords.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
Which does not mean adoption of Russian i.e. Muscovite identity.
Think adoption of Orthodox Christianity, the magnates and nobility speaking westernmost variants of the Rus dialect continuum, i.e. those evolving into Belarussian of today.
Look at Mongols and Mandzhurs in China, at the Juan and Qing respectively. Or at Liao and Kin. Or Bulgars. Or Normans. Or ... the list is endless ...


What @Batrix said - Poland was always the stronger partner. And if not always, then from early 15th century onward. Lithuania was your generic flash-in-the-pan state, a bunch of tribals making it big due to weakness of more civilised neighbours which, after a century of "greatness", was doomed to crash&burn or to transform itself into a successor state of the conquered territories.
Jogailla's age, although not insignificant, was not that relevant, as he always ruled in Poland at the sufferance of (Little) Polish lords.

1.Indeed.They would become orthodox,and,in time,russian - but not moscovites,only real Kiev russians.
They would fought Moscov with Nowogrod and maybe Twer as allies - and survive as oligarchy.

2.Yes,Lithuanians had nothing to built on.They could either become poles,or Kiev russians.

Interesting,what would happen with Teutonic ordere here.They could not attack Poland,but orthodox Lithuania was fair target.
In OTL they made alliance with Moscov in 1408 - possible now,too.
But,Lithuania with Nowogrod and Tatar help should hold.

Good thing for Poland - both Teutonic Knights and Lithuania would be too focused on each other to fight us.
 

Buba

A total creep
Interesting,what would happen with Teutonic ordere here.They could not attack Poland
This is bullshit and you should know that.

Interesting,what would happen with Teutonic ordere here.

Good thing for Poland - both Teutonic Knights and Lithuania would be too focused on each other to fight us.
If cool heads prevail, OTL ensues - first Poland and Lithuania gang up on the Order and beat it down. Then a triangular balance of power should ensue. In OTL it did, for a short time, but the Order committed seppukku by pissing off its taxpayers into rebellion and calling in the Poles.

In OTL by 1454 or so the Order was weak enough for the Lithuanians to write it off as a threat and were happy to munch on popcorn while Poland and the Order went at one another, as this was the best outcome from the Lithuanian point of view. Fully natural for the weakest side of the triangle.
This is likely to be repeated here as well, P+L first trying to eliminate the order as a threat and then their interests diverging. For Poland the Order's lands were much more tempting - and it had a chance of conquering them, unlike Lithuania.

 
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ATP

Well-known member
This is bullshit and you should know that.


If cool heads prevail, OTL ensues - first Poland and Lithuania gang up on the Order and beat it down. Then a triangular balance of power should ensue. In OTL it did, for a short time, but the Order committed seppukku by pissing off its taxpayers into rebellion and calling in the Poles.

In OTL by 1454 or so the Order was weak enough for the Lithuanians to write it off as a threat and were happy to munch on popcorn while Poland and the Order went at one another, as this was the best outcome from the Lithuanian point of view. Fully natural for the weakest side of the triangle.
This is likely to be repeated here as well, P+L first trying to eliminate the order as a threat and then their interests diverging. For Poland the Order's lands were much more tempting - and it had a chance of conquering them, unlike Lithuania.
You have a point.HRE do not helped them in OTL,so they do not help them in this TL,too.
What about future Lithuania+ Novogrod vs Moscov war? who would win?
 

Buba

A total creep
What about future Lithuania+ Novogrod vs Moscov war? who would win?
Impossible to say. Struggle can end in many ways - and the winning party may end up disintegrating a generation or two after Ultimate Victory.
As in OTL at some point "Scandinavians have joined the chat" :)
 
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WolfBear

Well-known member
Which does not mean adoption of Russian i.e. Muscovite identity.
Think adoption of Orthodox Christianity, the magnates and nobility speaking westernmost variants of the Rus dialect continuum, i.e. those evolving into Belarussian of today.
Look at Mongols and Mandzhurs in China, at the Juan and Qing respectively. Or at Liao and Kin. Or Bulgars. Or Normans. Or ... the list is endless ...

Seeing a Greater Belarus emerge would be absolutely epic!

 

Buba

A total creep
Well,they probably still name themselves as lithuanians/even after abadonning language,customs and religion/ ,but yes.
Exactly like in OTL ... Polish speaking Christian nobility sharing broadly the same customs as dudes in Great Poland or Podolia were "Lithuanians".
 

ATP

Well-known member
Exactly like in OTL ... Polish speaking Christian nobility sharing broadly the same customs as dudes in Great Poland or Podolia were "Lithuanians".
Indeed.Here they would be Kiev russians allied with Greater Nowogrod,and fighting Moscov.

P.S Without union,Poland,after defeating with Lithuania Teutonic order,would help Hungary fight Ottomans.
We woud have probably polish-hungarian union instead.
Weaker Ottomans ,stronger Poland,free Hungary - i like this Europe more.
 

Buba

A total creep
P.S Without union,Poland,after defeating with Lithuania Teutonic order,would help Hungary fight Ottomans.
No.
Without the disastrous putsch of 1386 by the Little Polish clique, Poland's king is Hedewig with Wilhelm as co-rulling consort.
Sounds complicated, eh? It was quite common for lady monarchs to be crowned as the male equivalent.
Back to the topic - this puts Poland in the Habsburg camp, competing with the Luxemburg camp ruling Hungary and Czechia.

The Danube front is of no interest to Poland. "Crusaders" will go there, but not the national host.

We woud have probably polish-hungarian union instead.
Perish the thought! What for? Besides the potential common threat of Czechia there is nothing glueing the two together. Same as with Lithuania, disparate interests in areas thousands of kilometres apart.

The only "sensible" union I can see is with Czechia.
One way in which it might happen is after the Czech revolt in 1419.
Another - my favourite - is a 3rd party putsch in 1386 bringing in Jan Zgorzelecki/John of Goerlitz as consort to Hedewig. Or John living longer and ousting Jogailla after Hedewig's death in 1399.
Never heard of him? John is the younger son of the Czech King and Elisabeth of Stolp, grandaughter of Kazimierz III by his eldest daughter. Younger brother to Emperor and King of Hungary Sigismund. In terms of cognatic blood ties Sigismund and John have the best claim ...
 

ATP

Well-known member
No.
Without the disastrous putsch of 1386 by the Little Polish clique, Poland's king is Hedewig with Wilhelm as co-rulling consort.
Sounds complicated, eh? It was quite common for lady monarchs to be crowned as the male equivalent.
Back to the topic - this puts Poland in the Habsburg camp, competing with the Luxemburg camp ruling Hungary and Czechia.

The Danube front is of no interest to Poland. "Crusaders" will go there, but not the national host.


Perish the thought! What for? Besides the potential common threat of Czechia there is nothing glueing the two together. Same as with Lithuania, disparate interests in areas thousands of kilometres apart.

The only "sensible" union I can see is with Czechia.
One way in which it might happen is after the Czech revolt in 1419.
Another - my favourite - is a 3rd party putsch in 1386 bringing in Jan Zgorzelecki/John of Goerlitz as consort to Hedewig. Or John living longer and ousting Jogailla after Hedewig's death in 1399.
Never heard of him? John is the younger son of the Czech King and Elisabeth of Stolp, grandaughter of Kazimierz III by his eldest daughter. Younger brother to Emperor and King of Hungary Sigismund. In terms of cognatic blood ties Sigismund and John have the best claim ...

1.We still had war with Teutonic order,even with Habsburg as consort.
2.Why not some Piast from Silesia,then?
 

Buba

A total creep
1 - yes, regardless who is on the Polish throne, war with Order is practically a given. I was referring to Poland helping Hungary against the Ottomans after vanquishing the Order. For Poland the Ottoman-Hungary rivalry is a case of "not my monkeys, not my circus".

2 - in agnatic, i.e. male line inheritance terms, the Siliesian Piasts are behind the Mazovian Piasts. As to "why not?" - in OTL a/ Casimir III had a brainfart and passed on the Crown to his cousin by distaff Louis, and not grandson by distaff Casimir of Stolp; b/ in 1386 and 1399 the Little Polish clique ignored blood ties when choosing king
 
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