What if Pim Fortuyn survives his assassination attempt?

Skallagrim

Well-known member
Fortuyn was leading in the polls before he was killed. A failed assassination attempt -- by a far-left radical, too -- will serve to vindicate his ideas, and lead to sympathy votes. 45 seats out of 150 in the Lower House isn't out of the question. GroenLinks (Greens) and the PvdA (Labour) will be decimated, even moreso than in OTL. The VVD (centre-right) will take a massive hit, too. But we must keep in mind that people walking away from the left in disgust after their hate-campaign against Fortuyn led to this shocking murder attempt won't suddenly vote for Fortuyn. They'll vote more centre/centre-right, whereas people from those parties will switch to Fortuyn in sympathy.

CDA (Christian Democrats) will be the other winner, because they were the only mainstream party who didn't attack Fortuyn. SGP (conservative Protestants) are small, but may also get an extra seat.


ATL election outcome, if you ask me:

LPF: 45
CDA: 44
VVD: 18
PvdA: 16
SP: 9
D66: 5
GroenLinks: 5
CU: 4
SGP: 3
LN: 1


This would mean LPF and CDA can form a two-party coalition, and there's very little doubt they will. This allows Fortuyn to make an obvious deal, which he was angling for in OTL anyway: the coalition's governing platform leans strongly towards his favoured policies, but most of the top positions will go to CDA politicians. He gets his way, but they get the cushy jobs. Furthermore, instead of putting LPF people in a lot of positions (like undersecretary jobs), Fortuyn will court accomplished businessmen & the such to take over those positions "for one term, to get the house in order". These extra-parliamentary "crisis managers" will get a broad mandate to shake up the bureaucracy and execute mass lay-offs in their departments.

Fortuyn will no doubt flip on the Joint Strike Fighter project, which ensures he doesn't rock the boat when it come to relations with the USA. He favoured more money for NATO commitments, so that'll go over well, too (the CDA agreed, by the way).

Immigration-wise, he'll get his way, too. He'll close the borders almost entirely, but in return, he'll introduce the general amnesty for all immigrants already present. They just gt citizenship, and no more bullshit. But after that: the borders are closed. And from then on, asylum seekers will only be housed in specialised refugee centres in the region they came from. No more will ever be housed in the Netherlands. (The funding for the "international refugee housing" programme will be generous, to forestall complaints from humanitarians. They'll still whine, but the CDA will be ready to agree, so it'll happen.)

All of this will cause problems with the EU, but the Netherlands are the main import gateway for North-Western Europe. In OTL, Orban can tell Brussels to fuck off, and they do in fact fuck off. Fortuyn would be in a much stronger position, so despite much whining from Brussels, he can literally say "shut up or we unilaterally exit the EU within the year". And they'll shut up. In fact, Dutch payments to the EU will be renegotiated, and they'll be lowered.

Taxes will be lowered, although not by as much as he wanted. In the early days of the OTL Balkenende (CDA) government, there was support for comprehensive tax reform. I think with Fortuyn and Balkenende governing together, you might see that happening, possibly with a flat income tax getting introduced, and all loopholes being eliminated.

A return to (an updated version of) the "old" medical inurance scheme would also have broad support. Return of the Ziekenfonds! They'd justify it by saying that with mass migration halted, it'd be fiscally possible to have such a system. I have serious doubts, and I think it'd end up being a mess. But then again, the OTL system is a mess, too. (Too be clear: Fortuyn's idea was a lot like what Singapore does. You have basic payments, and for tht, you get basic service. Want extras? Then pay extra!)

Other things that would be done: infrastructural works would be done (lots of road construction), left-wing activist clubs would be stripped of funding, legislation would be passed to target far-left radicals and to block them from stopping all sorts of building projects with legal actions, and the building of at least one new nuclear plant would get started (probably in North-East Groningen). Finally, Fortuyn and the CDA both felt that the agricultural sector needed reform. This would end up involving a series of reforms that would aid the farmers and cut away regulations that would (as in OTL!) end up strangling thew whole sector eventually (which i happening right now, in OTL).

Fortuyn's plans to reform pensions wouldn't go through. Too many vested interests to let that happens. His plans to reform the military would be off the table, too. Likewise, his plans to reverse the up-scaling of municipalities would be dismissed as "no longer possible", but he'd stop future forced mergers, thus preserving a bit of local government. His plans to up-scale the provinces instead, and to merge them with the waterships, would not happen. (There would be lots of talk about it, but it would come to nought.)

The LPF was a hastily-assembled gaggle of very mixed quality, of course. But I think thry can be kept in check, mostly. The coalition will have a big enough majority that they can handle a few idiots splitting off after stupid in-fighting. Come next election, Fortuyn will have had a few years to weed out the morons and get some better people on board. So "Professor Pim" can stay in charge for quite some time, I think. He'd be divisive, controversial, but he'd have the majority to actually get things done. To many, he'd be a breath of fresh air.

The thing about Fortuyn is that he was a lot more moderate and flexible than his opponents claimed. He'd be in a much better position to form a stable coalition/government than (say) an ATL victorious Jörg Haider, Jean-Marie Le Pen or Filip Dewinter. Fortuyn getting to carry out a lot of his plans would also negate the rise of Geert Wilders. Most of the issues at hand would, t least a meaningful extent, be solved.

The left would forever hate him, the way they also forever hate Thatcher. Internationally, he'd be controversial in many quarters (and most of all in Brussels). But to many in the Netherlands, he's be the man who actually got things done. Not perfectly, not always without problems, nor even without some serious failures... but he actually rolled up his sleeves and got to work. And to the Dutch, at the end of the day, that's where you win popular acclaim. (Which was what Fortuyn, ultimately, desired: to be recognised, and even loved, after having been dismissed by the establishment for so long.)
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Fortuyn was leading in the polls before he was killed. A failed assassination attempt -- by a far-left radical, too -- will serve to vindicate his ideas, and lead to sympathy votes. 45 seats out of 150 in the Lower House isn't out of the question. GroenLinks (Greens) and the PvdA (Labour) will be decimated, even moreso than in OTL. The VVD (centre-right) will take a massive hit, too. But we must keep in mind that people walking away from the left in disgust after their hate-campaign against Fortuyn led to this shocking murder attempt won't suddenly vote for Fortuyn. They'll vote more centre/centre-right, whereas people from those parties will switch to Fortuyn in sympathy.

CDA (Christian Democrats) will be the other winner, because they were the only mainstream party who didn't attack Fortuyn. SGP (conservative Protestants) are small, but may also get an extra seat.


ATL election outcome, if you ask me:

LPF: 45
CDA: 44
VVD: 18
PvdA: 16
SP: 9
D66: 5
GroenLinks: 5
CU: 4
SGP: 3
LN: 1


This would mean LPF and CDA can form a two-party coalition, and there's very little doubt they will. This allows Fortuyn to make an obvious deal, which he was angling for in OTL anyway: the coalition's governing platform leans strongly towards his favoured policies, but most of the top positions will go to CDA politicians. He gets his way, but they get the cushy jobs. Furthermore, instead of putting LPF people in a lot of positions (like undersecretary jobs), Fortuyn will court accomplished businessmen & the such to take over those positions "for one term, to get the house in order". These extra-parliamentary "crisis managers" will get a broad mandate to shake up the bureaucracy and execute mass lay-offs in their departments.

Fortuyn will no doubt flip on the Joint Strike Fighter project, which ensures he doesn't rock the boat when it come to relations with the USA. He favoured more money for NATO commitments, so that'll go over well, too (the CDA agreed, by the way).

Immigration-wise, he'll get his way, too. He'll close the borders almost entirely, but in return, he'll introduce the general amnesty for all immigrants already present. They just gt citizenship, and no more bullshit. But after that: the borders are closed. And from then on, asylum seekers will only be housed in specialised refugee centres in the region they came from. No more will ever be housed in the Netherlands. (The funding for the "international refugee housing" programme will be generous, to forestall complaints from humanitarians. They'll still whine, but the CDA will be ready to agree, so it'll happen.)

All of this will cause problems with the EU, but the Netherlands are the main import gateway for North-Western Europe. In OTL, Orban can tell Brussels to fuck off, and they do in fact fuck off. Fortuyn would be in a much stronger position, so despite much whining from Brussels, he can literally say "shut up or we unilaterally exit the EU within the year". And they'll shut up. In fact, Dutch payments to the EU will be renegotiated, and they'll be lowered.

Taxes will be lowered, although not by as much as he wanted. In the early days of the OTL Balkenende (CDA) government, there was support for comprehensive tax reform. I think with Fortuyn and Balkenende governing together, you might see that happening, possibly with a flat income tax getting introduced, and all loopholes being eliminated.

A return to (an updated version of) the "old" medical inurance scheme would also have broad support. Return of the Ziekenfonds! They'd justify it by saying that with mass migration halted, it'd be fiscally possible to have such a system. I have serious doubts, and I think it'd end up being a mess. But then again, the OTL system is a mess, too. (Too be clear: Fortuyn's idea was a lot like what Singapore does. You have basic payments, and for tht, you get basic service. Want extras? Then pay extra!)

Other things that would be done: infrastructural works would be done (lots of road construction), left-wing activist clubs would be stripped of funding, legislation would be passed to target far-left radicals and to block them from stopping all sorts of building projects with legal actions, and the building of at least one new nuclear plant would get started (probably in North-East Groningen). Finally, Fortuyn and the CDA both felt that the agricultural sector needed reform. This would end up involving a series of reforms that would aid the farmers and cut away regulations that would (as in OTL!) end up strangling thew whole sector eventually (which i happening right now, in OTL).

Fortuyn's plans to reform pensions wouldn't go through. Too many vested interests to let that happens. His plans to reform the military would be off the table, too. Likewise, his plans to reverse the up-scaling of municipalities would be dismissed as "no longer possible", but he'd stop future forced mergers, thus preserving a bit of local government. His plans to up-scale the provinces instead, and to merge them with the waterships, would not happen. (There would be lots of talk about it, but it would come to nought.)

The LPF was a hastily-assembled gaggle of very mixed quality, of course. But I think thry can be kept in check, mostly. The coalition will have a big enough majority that they can handle a few idiots splitting off after stupid in-fighting. Come next election, Fortuyn will have had a few years to weed out the morons and get some better people on board. So "Professor Pim" can stay in charge for quite some time, I think. He'd be divisive, controversial, but he'd have the majority to actually get things done. To many, he'd be a breath of fresh air.

The thing about Fortuyn is that he was a lot more moderate and flexible than his opponents claimed. He'd be in a much better position to form a stable coalition/government than (say) an ATL victorious Jörg Haider, Jean-Marie Le Pen or Filip Dewinter. Fortuyn getting to carry out a lot of his plans would also negate the rise of Geert Wilders. Most of the issues at hand would, t least a meaningful extent, be solved.

The left would forever hate him, the way they also forever hate Thatcher. Internationally, he'd be controversial in many quarters (and most of all in Brussels). But to many in the Netherlands, he's be the man who actually got things done. Not perfectly, not always without problems, nor even without some serious failures... but he actually rolled up his sleeves and got to work. And to the Dutch, at the end of the day, that's where you win popular acclaim. (Which was what Fortuyn, ultimately, desired: to be recognised, and even loved, after having been dismissed by the establishment for so long.)

How much less Muslims and non-Westerners do you think that the Netherlands would have had right now in this TL?

Also, if Fortuyn lives, I wonder if the Western Left would have started talking much more about gay Fascists:

 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
How much less Muslims and non-Westerners do you think that the Netherlands would have had right now in this TL?
OTL figures indicate c. 1,49 million people of non-Western descent in the Netherlands back then, of whom c. 700.000 were Muslims. In 2022, it's c. 2,43 million non-Westerners, of whom c. 980.000 are Muslims.

In the ATL, I'd estimate (assuming a high birthrate among the already-present non-Westerners) that there might be c. 1,8 million non-Westerners in 2022, of whom c. 850.000 would be Muslims. That's 630.000 fewer non-Westerners in the country (of which number there are 130.000 fewer Muslims).

OTL population of the Netherlands in 2022 is c. 17,21 million. We may assume that with fewer non-Westerners, some more laour migrants from Eastern Europe would be brought in (Fortuyn was pretty okay with bringing in, for instance, Catholic Poles). So you might see, perhaps, a total population of 16,75 million people in 2022. (Of which less than 10,75% would be of non-Western descent, as opposed to >14% in OTL.)


...No doubt these numbers would be a bit disappointing to Fortuyn, who (despite the general amnesty he proposed) did envision forcibly deporting all future criminals with a double nationality, simply stripping them of their Dutch passport and kicking them out. (It should be noted that nearly all people of Turkish and Moroccan descent in the Netherlands have a double nationality, so almost every one of them committing a crime would consequently be deported.) The fact of the matter is that such measures would be too controversial to get through parliament. So Fortuyn would have to settle for a "reduction of growth" (of the number of non-Westerners) such as I've outlined above.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
OTL figures indicate c. 1,49 million people of non-Western descent in the Netherlands back then, of whom c. 700.000 were Muslims. In 2022, it's c. 2,43 million non-Westerners, of whom c. 980.000 are Muslims.

In the ATL, I'd estimate (assuming a high birthrate among the already-present non-Westerners) that there might be c. 1,8 million non-Westerners in 2022, of whom c. 850.000 would be Muslims. That's 630.000 fewer non-Westerners in the country (of which number there are 130.000 fewer Muslims).

OTL population of the Netherlands in 2022 is c. 17,21 million. We may assume that with fewer non-Westerners, some more laour migrants from Eastern Europe would be brought in (Fortuyn was pretty okay with bringing in, for instance, Catholic Poles). So you might see, perhaps, a total population of 16,75 million people in 2022. (Of which less than 10,75% would be of non-Western descent, as opposed to >14% in OTL.)


...No doubt these numbers would be a bit disappointing to Fortuyn, who (despite the general amnesty he proposed) did envision forcibly deporting all future criminals with a double nationality, simply stripping them of their Dutch passport and kicking them out. (It should be noted that nearly all people of Turkish and Moroccan descent in the Netherlands have a double nationality, so almost every one of them committing a crime would consequently be deported.) The fact of the matter is that such measures would be too controversial to get through parliament. So Fortuyn would have to settle for a "reduction of growth" (of the number of non-Westerners) such as I've outlined above.

Makes sense. BTW, how did Fortuyn feel about immigration from places like East Asia, Vietnam, Thailand, the Philippines, and India?
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
@Skallagrim Also, couldn't crime-inclined foreign citizens living in the Netherlands simply give up their foreign citizenship(s) before they will ever actually commit any (serious) crimes? At least for the more thoughtful and less impulsive criminals among them, I mean. That way, Fortuyn wouldn't actually be able to deport them since there would be nowhere to deport them to, right?
 

lordhen

Well-known member
Let's say that the assassin's bullet is just a tad off, missing him entirety. Pim Fortuyn somehow through the grace of god survives the attempt, and is then elected to a seat. Could he keep LPF afloat? What would his impact be?
There is a Dutch book where he survives for a time being, becomes PM, send 3,000 troops to support the US in the war in Iraq in 2003 and then still gets assassinated.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
Makes sense. BTW, how did Fortuyn feel about immigration from places like East Asia, Vietnam, Thailand, the Philippines, and India?
His main gripe was with Islam (which he famously called "a retarded culture"), but the desire for a selective immigration policy was pretty much a general aim. The Dutch legal realities also ensure that it's practically impossible to close the borders only for Muslims. You'd need to basically apply the same rules across the board.


@Skallagrim Also, couldn't crime-inclined foreign citizens living in the Netherlands simply give up their foreign citizenship(s) before they will ever actually commit any (serious) crimes? At least for the more thoughtful and less impulsive criminals among them, I mean. That way, Fortuyn wouldn't actually be able to deport them since there would be nowhere to deport them to, right?
Moroccans literally can't give up their Moroccan citizenship, under Moroccan law. They also don't want to. Neither do Turks, nor most other immigrants from Muslim countries. If you ask any given third-generation "Dutchman" of Turkish descent what his nationality is, he'll practically always tell you he's a Turk. And that's someone both whose parents were born in the Netherlands.

Which was precisely why Fortuyn wanted people with that mindset gone. He basically advocated the equivalent of Theodore Roosevelt's "unhyphenated American". If you're going to be Dutch, you're going to be 100% Dutch and 0% anything else. If you're not ready to embrace that... you get to be 0% Dutch.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
His main gripe was with Islam (which he famously called "a retarded culture"), but the desire for a selective immigration policy was pretty much a general aim. The Dutch legal realities also ensure that it's practically impossible to close the borders only for Muslims. You'd need to basically apply the same rules across the board.

FWIW, one could argue in favor of a cognitively elitist immigration policy in general; that should get higher-quality immigrants in general. That said, though, if distinctions based on national origin (not religion per se) in immigration policy were suspect, then it would be unacceptable for the Netherlands to provide an easier immigration pathway to Europeans relative to non-Europeans, no? I'm talking about using national origin as a proxy rather than religion per se--though to be fair, even if religion per se was used, one could make a plausible case that given the extreme religious intolerance found in the Muslim community, up to the point of murdering apostates and people who engage in "Islamophobic" speech, it actually does make logical sense to be much more selective and to apply much greater scrutiny in regards to Muslim immigrants. (I'd also be willing to apply the same logic in the domestic context, such as in regards to racial profiling, where I would consider the state interest to be sufficiently compelling to justify deviating from colorblindness: Neven Sesardić, Is Racial Profiling a Legitimate Strategy in the Fight against Violent Crime? - PhilPapers )

Moroccans literally can't give up their Moroccan citizenship, under Moroccan law. They also don't want to. Neither do Turks, nor most other immigrants from Muslim countries. If you ask any given third-generation "Dutchman" of Turkish descent what his nationality is, he'll practically always tell you he's a Turk. And that's someone both whose parents were born in the Netherlands.

Which precisely why Fortuyn wanted people with that mindset gone. He basically advocated the equivalent of Theodore Roosevelt's "unhypthenated American". If you're going to be Dutch, you're going to be 100% Dutch and 0% anything else. If you're not ready to embrace that... you get to be 0% Dutch.

Interesting approach. Did he apply the same logic to Europeans? As in, you shouldn't be able to identify as both a Dutchman and a German? Or as both a Dutchman and an Italian?

There is a Dutch book where he survives for a time being, becomes PM, send 3,000 troops to support the US in the war in Iraq in 2003 and then still gets assassinated.

Is he assassinated by a Muslim this time around?
 

VictortheMonarch

Victor the Crusader
OTL figures indicate c. 1,49 million people of non-Western descent in the Netherlands back then, of whom c. 700.000 were Muslims. In 2022, it's c. 2,43 million non-Westerners, of whom c. 980.000 are Muslims.

In the ATL, I'd estimate (assuming a high birthrate among the already-present non-Westerners) that there might be c. 1,8 million non-Westerners in 2022, of whom c. 850.000 would be Muslims. That's 630.000 fewer non-Westerners in the country (of which number there are 130.000 fewer Muslims).
I think you're excluding how many people would immigrate to other nations, such as Belgium, Luxembourg, France and Germany. With Pim boi in power I doubt they would continue the status quo of simply staying and would more than likely gtfo.
 

VictortheMonarch

Victor the Crusader
No, still a animal right activist as far as i can remember.

Why change what works.
What I can't figure out is why? I haven't been able to see what he did to instigate his assassination, I'm obviously missing context, unless Pim was just another Garfield...
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
I think you're excluding how many people would immigrate to other nations, such as Belgium, Luxembourg, France and Germany. With Pim boi in power I doubt they would continue the status quo of simply staying and would more than likely gtfo.
Lots of people said they'd leave the USA if Trump got elected, too. Not many did actually leave. In fact, I can think of no examples.

There may be some Muslims in particular who choose to leave, but I don't think it would even be that many.


What I can't figure out is why? I haven't been able to see what he did to instigate his assassination, I'm obviously missing context, unless Pim was just another Garfield...
Fortuyn was opposed to far-left green activists, and wanted to end all subsidies to such groups. He was also in favour of expanding the highway network, increasing the maximum driving speed, and abolishing taxes and levies that "exist only to bully car-owners" (e.g. extra levies on fuel that were introduced as "environment taxes").

For the far left, having such views is enough to make you deserving of summary execution.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
I take it lefty agitation has a pretty "storied" history over there?

For one, I recall @Skallagrim tipping me off to Troelstra's shenanigans a while back, though that attempt was a joke that ended his career.
An early opponent of non-Western immigration was Hans Janmaat. His Centre Party advocated closing the borders completely. It should be noted that their stances would be considered fairly moderate by today's standards, although Janmaat himself occasionally displayed evident anti-semitism (for instance, saying that a particular Dutch politician -- a Catholic, but born to a converted couple that had been born Jewish -- should not be allowed to be a member of the government because "one a Jew, always a Jew").

Nevertheless, the Centre Party itself was fully committed to achieving anything through democratic means, was perfectly civil... and all its members were ruthlessly excluded from all social participation. You could easily lose your job for voting Janmaat. They were all treated like lepers. People tried to prosecute Janmaat over 300(!) times. He was repeatedly convicted and fines, on the basis that "while he hasn't actually said anything criminal, we hold his intent to be clear, and his 'hidden racism' is actually even worse than just openly saying it." (I'm quoting the Dutch equivalent of the DA here.) Needless to say, his 'hidden racism' was by definition not proven, so the convictions stand as a testament to a politically motivated persecution that violated the presumption of innocence.

Anyway... in 1986, a meeting the Centre Party was attacked by far-left radicals, who threw rocks, tear gas grenades and incendiaries into the building. (Specifically: phosphorus bombs were used -- you know, the ones that qualify you as a war criminal if you use them in warfare.) Janmaat's (future) wife was gruesomely injured, and her leg had to amputated.

The left has always been the side of terror. From the very start, from Robespierre onwards, they have been relentless in their murderous pursuits.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
An early opponent of non-Western immigration was Hans Janmaat. His Centre Party advocated closing the borders completely. It should be noted that their stances would be considered fairly moderate by today's standards, although Janmaat himself occasionally displayed evident anti-semitism (for instance, saying that a particular Dutch politician -- a Catholic, but born to a converted couple that had been born Jewish -- should not be allowed to be a member of the government because "one a Jew, always a Jew").

Nevertheless, the Centre Party itself was fully committed to achieving anything through democratic means, was perfectly civil... and all its members were ruthlessly excluded from all social participation. You could easily lose your job for voting Janmaat. They were all treated like lepers. People tried to prosecute Janmaat over 300(!) times. He was repeatedly convicted and fines, on the basis that "while he hasn't actually said anything criminal, we hold his intent to be clear, and his 'hidden racism' is actually even worse than just openly saying it." (I'm quoting the Dutch equivalent of the DA here.) Needless to say, his 'hidden racism' was by definition not proven, so the convictions stand as a testament to a politically motivated persecution that violated the presumption of innocence.

Anyway... in 1986, a meeting the Centre Party was attacked by far-left radicals, who threw rocks, tear gas grenades and incendiaries into the building. (Specifically: phosphorus bombs were used -- you know, the ones that qualify you as a war criminal if you use them in warfare.) Janmaat's (future) wife was gruesomely injured, and her leg had to amputated.

The left has always been the side of terror. From the very start, from Robespierre onwards, they have been relentless in their murderous pursuits.

Not only left but another famous assassination was Theo van Gogh by a Islamist in 2004.

I'm sorry to hear that. As in most cases, I suppose they’ve been “conveniently” memory-holed and scarcely talked about after the fact.

Haven’t had the chance to look up the Theo Van Gogh incident, but had to do some digging to find anything about Hans Janmaat. (The 1986 terror attack was in the footnotes of his Wiki bio, rather than having its own Wiki article.) But anyway, I’ve probably derailed enough.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Lots of people said they'd leave the USA if Trump got elected, too. Not many did actually leave. In fact, I can think of no examples.

There may be some Muslims in particular who choose to leave, but I don't think it would even be that many.



Fortuyn was opposed to far-left green activists, and wanted to end all subsidies to such groups. He was also in favour of expanding the highway network, increasing the maximum driving speed, and abolishing taxes and levies that "exist only to bully car-owners" (e.g. extra levies on fuel that were introduced as "environment taxes").

For the far left, having such views is enough to make you deserving of summary execution.

I thought that the guy who killed Fortuyn also viewed him as a Fascist who was scapegoating the Netherlands's Muslims, no?
 

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