Alternate History What if 300 Roman Soldiers get stranded in North America

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
In this scenario circa 43 AD a Roman invasion fleet meant for the invasion of Britain. Ge blown off course by a sudden massive storm at sea. 3 Months later the ships crash into the South Carolina coast near what would become Beaufort SC. Only 300 Roman Soldiers survive the ordeal. Their ships are destroy and will never be Sea worthy again. Now stranded on the North American continent. What will the 300 Romans do? Will they try to work with the natives, Will they try to conquer some small villages. Or will they just set up an Outpost and try to make it a it the farthest extension of the Roman Empire? How does history unfold from this point.
 

Buba

A total creep
They will be assimilated. Inside 100-150 years their descendants will be indistinguishable from the locals.
Three hundred grunts with a smattering of NCOs and a few artisans/artificers (if they are lucky) is not enough to build a lasting AND distinct state. Loss of technology - concrete, iron - or metals in general, engineering. Maaaaybe the wheel will survive. Writing - again a maybe.

Farming - a toss-up. These will be farmer sons and they will know how to make (even if crude copies) most tools and implements and how to work the land and tend to livestock (even if they hate it). But no crops nor animals. Also - the female side of the economy is lost. They know what customarily was done by women - but they don't know HOW. And the Pacahontas they kidnapped as brides - wizards in working skins - know fuck all about farming. At least about Roman farming - the girls may have several skill levels in local horticulture.

BTW - there are no "villages" to conquer. Roving hunter-gatherers or not far from it.

Three hundred rank and file members of the PBI are not enough. Add a zero - 3000 would be much better. A whole legion (this including auxliaries) would be best, as it would have educated people and/or with technical skills&know-how. Maybe even capable of building boats? Getting back across the Atlantic is out of the question, but fishing is useful - and maybe some trade with the Carribean?
Unless very unlucky - disease and/or famine - such a large group should be able to preserve a certain measure of culture and technology.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
In this scenario circa 43 AD a Roman invasion fleet meant for the invasion of Britain. Ge blown off course by a sudden massive storm at sea. 3 Months later the ships crash into the South Carolina coast near what would become Beaufort SC. Only 300 Roman Soldiers survive the ordeal. Their ships are destroy and will never be Sea worthy again. Now stranded on the North American continent. What will the 300 Romans do? Will they try to work with the natives, Will they try to conquer some small villages. Or will they just set up an Outpost and try to make it a it the farthest extension of the Roman Empire? How does history unfold from this point.

As @Buba said.
Unless...they would have good blacksmith,scribe and even better leader.Then they could made small village which would use iron tools and weapons.And,after few generations,city-state.

But,even then it city-state probably cease to exist before spaniards come.All difference - more fortified villages and iron tools when european come.

Since Aztecs and Incas fell thanks to their own stupidity,nothing change there.
 

Buba

A total creep
Back to OP - work together with natives or enslave them?
Their natural instinct would be the latter. But everything depends on the senior Sargeant leading them - hence IMO it'd be up to smarts+personality of the Big Boss i.e. Centurion.
 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
They will be assimilated. Inside 100-150 years their descendants will be indistinguishable from the locals.
Three hundred grunts with a smattering of NCOs and a few artisans/artificers (if they are lucky) is not enough to build a lasting AND distinct state. Loss of technology - concrete, iron - or metals in general, writing. Maaaaybe the wheel will survive. Writing - again a maybe.

Farming - a toss-up. These will be farmer sons and they will know how to make (even if crude copies) most tools and implements and how to work the land and tend to livestock (even if they hate it). But no crops nor animals. Also - the female side of the economy is lost. They know what customarily was done by women - but they don't know HOW. And the Pacahontas they kidnapped as brides - wizards in working skins - know fuck all about farming. At least about Roman farming - the girls may have several skill levels in local horticulture.

BTW - there are no "villages" to conquer. Roving hunter-gatherers or not far from it.

Three hundred rank and file members of the PBI are not enough. Add a zero - 3000 would be much better. A whole legion (this including auxliaries) would be best, as it would have educated people and/or with technical skills&know-how. Maybe even capable of building boats? Getting back across the Atlantic is out of the question, but fishing is useful - and maybe some trade with the Carribean?
Unless very unlucky - disease and/or famine - such a large group should be able to preserve a certain measure of culture and technology.
Actually we were settled farmers by 43 AD. The early version of my Tribe the Santee along with the Edisto, Chicora and many others were growing indigenous crops. Us being hunter gathers in this time period is a stereo type. They have uncovered the settlement sites for the tribes.

 
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WolfBear

Well-known member
They will be assimilated. Inside 100-150 years their descendants will be indistinguishable from the locals.
Three hundred grunts with a smattering of NCOs and a few artisans/artificers (if they are lucky) is not enough to build a lasting AND distinct state. Loss of technology - concrete, iron - or metals in general, writing. Maaaaybe the wheel will survive. Writing - again a maybe.

Farming - a toss-up. These will be farmer sons and they will know how to make (even if crude copies) most tools and implements and how to work the land and tend to livestock (even if they hate it). But no crops nor animals. Also - the female side of the economy is lost. They know what customarily was done by women - but they don't know HOW. And the Pacahontas they kidnapped as brides - wizards in working skins - know fuck all about farming. At least about Roman farming - the girls may have several skill levels in local horticulture.

BTW - there are no "villages" to conquer. Roving hunter-gatherers or not far from it.

Three hundred rank and file members of the PBI are not enough. Add a zero - 3000 would be much better. A whole legion (this including auxliaries) would be best, as it would have educated people and/or with technical skills&know-how. Maybe even capable of building boats? Getting back across the Atlantic is out of the question, but fishing is useful - and maybe some trade with the Carribean?

Everything here sounds very reasonable, frankly.

Unless very unlucky - disease and/or famine - such a large group should be able to preserve a certain measure of culture and technology.

Would significantly help if they also bred a lot. That way, they will have lots of descendants.
 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
Everything here sounds very reasonable, frankly.



Would significantly help if they also bred a lot. That way, they will have lots of descendants.
It should be noted that their are both Copper and Gold deposits in the Upstate of South Carolina.
 

Buba

A total creep
their are both Copper and Gold deposits in the Upstate of South Carolina.
The so-called Georgia Goldbelt :)
Nevertheless, a map:

I am wary of "official" data on Amerindians. Too much "ideological wars" and "Indians are so fucking awesome and wonderful!" agenda pushing involved. I am aware that "science" involving First Nations used to be biased towards the "slaving and human sacrificing primitives" perception in the past ...

Hence I'm skeptical as to the "settled farmers" claim.
 
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WolfBear

Well-known member
It should be noted that their are both Copper and Gold deposits in the Upstate of South Carolina.

"There", not "their".

The so-called Georgia Goldbelt :)

Mercury-and-gold-mines-in-2004-in-the-US-Wentz-Brigham-Chasar-Lutz-Krabbenhoft.png
 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
"There", not "their".



Mercury-and-gold-mines-in-2004-in-the-US-Wentz-Brigham-Chasar-Lutz-Krabbenhoft.png
Blame the dastardly Google spell check.

The so-called Georgia Goldbelt :)
Nevertheless, a map:

I am wary of "official" data on Amerindians. Too much "ideological wars" and "Indians are so fucking awesome and wonderful!" agenda pushing involved. I am aware that "science" involving First Nations used to be biased towards the "slaving and human sacrificing primitives" perception in the past ...

Hence I'm skeptical as to the "settled farmers" claim.
Dude both USC and Clemson University did archeological digs throughout the 70s, 80s, and 90s uncovering the sites. It is well documented. And none of the data is woke. Don't use what is happening today and putting it on the backs of people who did hard true scientific research.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Actually we were settled farmers by 43 AD. The early version of my Tribe the Santee along with the Edisto, Chicora and many others were growing indigenous crops. Us being hunter gathers in this time period is a stereo type. They have uncovered the settlement sites for the tribes.


Do not help our 300 romans much.Unless they had blacksmiths,other specialists,and genius leader,they still be assimilated in 200 years.
To be honest,considering that were some roman artifacts found in USA territory,it could happen in OTL,and we still do not knew about that.
 
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Bear Ribs

Well-known member
The biggest potential butterfly I can see here won't affect the Romans or Indians directly for centuries. AS people say, the Romans are going to wind up assimilated. This difference will come back and bite Cortez in the ass though. That is to say, disease.

Much of the conquest of the new world was greatly eased by European diseases going through native populations like a chainsaw through wet cardboard. If the Romans bring European diseases to the Americas early, the people most susceptible to those diseases are going to die a solid thousand years too soon, and the genetic predisposition to be resistant to those diseases is going to be present in all the survivors, who will have time to be fruitful and multiply and get the population back up to par before Explorers show up.

This won't mean immunity, however even slightly better odds will tip the scales dramatically. In many communities estimates are that 95% died to various diseases. Imagine if that was reduced to 75%, still staggering losses but it means that small Indian Village is now five times bigger and the raiding parties the westerners faced in the OTL have now become small armies. If the death rate was, say, 50%, still very high, they might have ten times their number and it's more like mid-sized armies. This would seriously curb any hopes of western expansion and make them far more difficult, perhaps turning the situation into one more like Africa where the natives were never truly displaced and remain the majority to this day.
 

ATP

Well-known member
The biggest potential butterfly I can see here won't affect the Romans or Indians directly for centuries. AS people say, the Romans are going to wind up assimilated. This difference will come back and bite Cortez in the ass though. That is to say, disease.

Much of the conquest of the new world was greatly eased by European diseases going through native populations like a chainsaw through wet cardboard. If the Romans bring European diseases to the Americas early, the people most susceptible to those diseases are going to die a solid thousand years too soon, and the genetic predisposition to be resistant to those diseases is going to be present in all the survivors, who will have time to be fruitful and multiply and get the population back up to par before Explorers show up.

This won't mean immunity, however even slightly better odds will tip the scales dramatically. In many communities estimates are that 95% died to various diseases. Imagine if that was reduced to 75%, still staggering losses but it means that small Indian Village is now five times bigger and the raiding parties the westerners faced in the OTL have now become small armies. If the death rate was, say, 50%, still very high, they might have ten times their number and it's more like mid-sized armies. This would seriously curb any hopes of western expansion and make them far more difficult, perhaps turning the situation into one more like Africa where the natives were never truly displaced and remain the majority to this day.

Indeed,i should thought about that.
Add possible iron weapons,and all colonist would have problems.

And,that would butterfly Aztecs,too - if their ancestor was more ravaged then others,they could never become Empire.
Which mean no easy conqest for Cortez - becouse,let be frank,Cortez win mostly thanks to Aztecs being bloody idiots.
Any other opponent would fight better.
 

Atarlost

Well-known member
It should be noted that their are both Copper and Gold deposits in the Upstate of South Carolina.
Copper doesn't do much without tin or arsenic. There's a reason the chalcolithic is considered part of the stone age: copper and gold look pretty, but it aren't hard enough to make good tools so the work is still done with stone. I think you get some stuff like needles that don't need hardness in copper, but for the most part it's decorative and the chalcolithic is a continuation of the neolithic, just farther along in the neolithic trends towards improving agriculture and larger settlements.

If the Romans have a blacksmith, iron can be introduced if they find iron. If they find tin (I think arsenic bronze has been displaced so they might not know it's an option), I think bronze is still used enough (because iron casting requires higher heat than iron forging and the Romans don't have the furnace technology) that a blacksmith should know what to do with it as well. But copper and gold aren't industrial metals on their own.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
America has all sorts of deposits of minerals but none of them are close enough together to be useful to a pre-industrial society. Like there's iron deposits and coal deposits but only hundreds of miles away from each other preventing any meaningful steel production. There are serious tin deposits in Alaska but very little in the lower 48 and I find it unlikely 300 Romans are going to manage to explore thoroughly enough to find what they need.

The US is blessed with a completely BS river network that will facilitate trade and exploration... if the Romans happen to have a guy who knows how to build a boat and several sailors. Even then they're just not likely to ever manage to piece together anything to get Roman tech going, nor put together the multi-tribe spanning trade routes needed to keep those materials coming even if they manage to get lucky and find some.
 

Buba

A total creep
Actually the Romans don't need coal to get iron making going. Charcoal +bog iron are enough.
But even a blacksmith is unlikely among the three hundred, let alone a blacksmith who - beyond working iron - knows how to find ore and smelt it?

Hmmm - maybe if not PBI, but REMFs? From the equipment maintenance branch? That'd would practically ensure of preservation of Roman technology and knowledge - at least to a certain degree.

AFAIK (I can be wrong) there is coal and iron ore close to one another in north Alabama. Not that it matters here :)
 
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Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
Copper doesn't do much without tin or arsenic. There's a reason the chalcolithic is considered part of the stone age: copper and gold look pretty, but it aren't hard enough to make good tools so the work is still done with stone. I think you get some stuff like needles that don't need hardness in copper, but for the most part it's decorative and the chalcolithic is a continuation of the neolithic, just farther along in the neolithic trends towards improving agriculture and larger settlements.

If the Romans have a blacksmith, iron can be introduced if they find iron. If they find tin (I think arsenic bronze has been displaced so they might not know it's an option), I think bronze is still used enough (because iron casting requires higher heat than iron forging and the Romans don't have the furnace technology) that a blacksmith should know what to do with it as well. But copper and gold aren't industrial metals on their own.
According to the map in this page. Tin Deposits in the United States
Their are some Tin Deposits in Alabama. Tin is known to the Natives in that area. Just not widely used. So if some Tin makes it's way to SC. The Romans will more than likely cut some deal to get it delivered to them. Same with the Copper.
 

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