What do you think makes a good villain?
- Thread starter Lord Sovereign
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LindyAF
Well-known member
I think part of the reason this is confused is that Voldemort had sequential motives but we deal with him during a lot of different time periods when and so it gets muddled up. My take on it was that Voldemort first pursued immortality and making that immortality as robust as possible. He didn't pursue (or kept fairly limited) any political projects he had at that time. Then after he'd thought he achieved it, he decided to go "reee muggle-borns." It's possible he was hopelessly fucked up in the head at this time because he kind of makes a total mess of it. Then he gets a prophecy about someone destined to possibly kill him and so killing Harry is his new goal. That fucks him up pretty bad so he spends 14 years with "getting his body back" as his main goal, which flips back to killing Harry after it happens. Finally he wants to get the Deathly Hallows in book 7 to shore up his immortality.
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Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
Actually, the "reeeeeeeeeeee muggles" motivation could have been quite compelling. Voldemort could hate and fear muggles because he can see them slowly outstripping the Wizarding World (the place that is his home, which he loves and is deathly afraid of losing. Let's face it, the man did not have a home before he came to Hogwarts). As a child he watched the Luftwaffe level London from an altitude no broomstick can reach, and that was decades before Man went to the fucking Moon.
What has the Wizarding World done in the last sixty years? Another cursed teapot? Actually, disregard that, what has the Wizarding World done in the last six hundred years?
Voldemort could be convinced that the backwards, quaint ways of his community (of which he is fond) will be its downfall. In his eyes it must progress, experiment and catch up (his claiming of immortality being the ultimate example of Magic's true might), or else the Muggles will discover them and destroy them, just as they tried to do a few hundred years ago. This goal could be so imperative to him, that anything that stands in its way must be destroyed. This means he must have absolute power and absolute obedience.
LindyAF
Well-known member
I agree it could have been compelling, but it doesn't really pop up in the books. Nobody ever mentions the muggle world as anything like a threat, not even Muggle Borns.
Actually, I'd argue that in Harry Potter there's an implicit assumption that the muggle world is basically irrelevant and that muggles aren't thought of as real people by any of the characters (including Muggle Borns) with the primary difference between the two sides on muggles being basically between someone who thinks animals in the wilderness should continue to exist in their natural state and may find it enjoyable to watch them and someone who likes torturing them and cutting them up for fun.
(Edit: Last example wasn't intended as any sort of commentary on hunting, which I consider to be quite different in nature, and more along the lines of a juvenile psychopath who skins living squirrels or something).
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
A good few of the most hardcore Potterheads think that's just the Wizarding World's arrogance talking (and Rowling getting a bit caught up in her own world). Indeed, this could be another reason the version of Voldemort I've proposed could be so extreme and frantic is that he (much like Harry would, as he is a child of both worlds as well) can see the danger and no one is listening.
On that topic, one of my favourite reddit posts of all time was on ask science-fiction, where in a thread about a Muggle and Wizard war, a redditor called "MikeOfThePalace" role played a "Wizard in the Know" and laid out just how much trouble they'd all be in.
LindyAF
Well-known member
I think it's perfectly legitimate for people to go that direction, in how they want to view the world and in any fiction inspired by Harry Potter they want to make. I just don't think it has textual support. It's entirely possible it would make for better fiction, it's just as I see it it's not in the books as they are written and doesn't seem to have been something intended.
I do think the "Muggles aren't real people" in Harry Potter themes was actually unintentional, so it makes sense to take it out.
Morphic Tide
Well-known member
Yeah, the sheer totality of not applying spells creatively does well to justify the Statute of Secrecy as "Okay, hol up, they have how many people with weapons that kill a man from a hundred paces faster than anyone can track in organized armies?" Also population disparities, as the Wizarding World clearly indicates a prior status as some manner of aristocracy.
Eighty years in, they'd probably still have loads of doubters about the necessity of the Statute, given how long they live. And then the French Revolution happens and anyone with the slightest lick of sense about city sizes quickly realizes the cruel truth of logistics being against them.
Sure, a single Wizard can do unholy amounts of damage... But it takes only the smallest split-second mistake to be dead, no questions asked. A Wizard with just their wand against a Muggle with just a gun goes poorly for the Muggle. But Wizards trying to clear a street are in very dire straights since every last window could spell their death.
LindyAF
Well-known member
Voldemort and his minions pretty clearly don’t give a fuck about the Statue of Secrecy though. They violate it far more than anyone else.
The issue with the non-magical world vs magical world stuff is that the mind control curse + teleportation + better-than-technologically-possible stealth routes around almost all of it.
A group of wizards (who've done their homework) trying to fight the non-magical world isn’t clearing streets with killing curses, they’re teleporting into the White House, mind controlling a couple of people, and setting off a nuclear war.
The issue with the non-magical world vs magical world stuff is that the mind control curse + teleportation + better-than-technologically-possible stealth routes around almost all of it.
A group of wizards (who've done their homework) trying to fight the non-magical world isn’t clearing streets with killing curses, they’re teleporting into the White House, mind controlling a couple of people, and setting off a nuclear war.
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Aaron Fox
Well-known member
The thing people forget is that the magicals are researching new spells, techniques, etc. Hell, Britain (and most likely other magical nations) has an entire division of their government dedicated to in-depth research of magic itself.
The problem is, well, if you're not paranoid levels of care, then you'll explode. Ask Luna's mother about the dangers of spell research, oh, wait, she became blood splatter right in front of Luna due to not being paranoid enough. Hence why the magical world looks so antiquated. I wouldn't be surprised that Aurthur's job included taking apart the enchanted muggle objects -or at least their enchantments- to replicate the spells and enchantments in question (hence why Molly tore Ron a new one and outright stated that Authur is now down months of required work when she sent the howler), or at least neutralize them.
In addition, all those unplottables and similar spells/wards/whatever work even with satellites or tech in general, or places like Hogwarts would have already blown the lid on the Statute when a soviet spy-sat took a peek at Scotland. Also, they've got TARDIS spells.
The problem is, well, if you're not paranoid levels of care, then you'll explode. Ask Luna's mother about the dangers of spell research, oh, wait, she became blood splatter right in front of Luna due to not being paranoid enough. Hence why the magical world looks so antiquated. I wouldn't be surprised that Aurthur's job included taking apart the enchanted muggle objects -or at least their enchantments- to replicate the spells and enchantments in question (hence why Molly tore Ron a new one and outright stated that Authur is now down months of required work when she sent the howler), or at least neutralize them.
In addition, all those unplottables and similar spells/wards/whatever work even with satellites or tech in general, or places like Hogwarts would have already blown the lid on the Statute when a soviet spy-sat took a peek at Scotland. Also, they've got TARDIS spells.
Morphic Tide
Well-known member
So you're talking shit because Wizards quite manifestly don't do their homework, given there are people who's literal job is to understand Muggle affairs who… very obviously don't? Also, Wizards live on Earth too, it'd be a fucking insane pile of R&D projects to have literally any grip on dealing with the fallout of what you suggest.
Additionally, that no such thing occurred when the Death Eaters took over quite clearly suggests it cannot happen. Remember, they were literally murdering people in the streets. If Imperious were of such strategic value, we would get told about a Death Eater forcing mass mayhem with it. Given Muggle Britain did not collapse into anarchy with Magical Britain's government usurped by bad actors with motive to do so, said actors ability must be in some fashion limited.
Just because a capability is shown on screen does not mean you can extrapolate it works as intended with no catches in all conditions. This is most prominent with the Death Eaters not collapsing Muggle Britain with all these force-multipliers to shred the social order rapidly. You need a matter of WEEKS for a lone asshole to fundamentally shatter a modern government with the no-limits fallacy you people insist on. And the Death Eaters were no small supply of assholes.
Harry Potter, as a setting, requires limitations not stated to operate. The things so often taken as sources for the Wizarding World stomping would mean that it takes one clever asshole to completely shred the Muggle world around them. You can't Auror your way around a major city suddenly having riots because somebody decided to drive law enforcement insane with pain. We know they can't fix Crucio trauma, we see this on screen.
Because the Wizarding World so rarely interacts with Muggles as to be largely clueless, a single Muggleborn mass-murderer in the unbounded interpretation would very quickly and trivially force the Wizarding World to actively take over the world just to keep it safe from a rogue actor trying to fuck it over. Because we are talking about capabilities where it is mere hours to go from "I want to fuck over the world" to "I have forced the beginning of mass nuclear war".
Have you any idea how comprehensively policed they'd have to be to actually have the Cold War not collapse up its ass to rogue Muggleborn? How utterly contradictory the pressures of the Statute are to the capabilities you insist on ascribing and the story with the Death Eaters happening? You can't Oblivio away there being a glowing crater where a nuclear power plant was, if you can even find an Auror who understands the problem with how utterly clueless everyone is about Muggle affairs!
Gladiator
Well-known member
Theater.
It doesn't matter whether the villain is complex or simple. It's whether they are put on display in a way that is entertaining. A villain could simply just love being evil, but that's okay if you make a show of it. You can even capitalize on that simplicity by making them something other than a person. Rather they are a force of nature. The very embodiment of evil itself.
The same can be done with heroes in regards to their virtue. Whether due to their backstory or by nature.
It doesn't matter whether the villain is complex or simple. It's whether they are put on display in a way that is entertaining. A villain could simply just love being evil, but that's okay if you make a show of it. You can even capitalize on that simplicity by making them something other than a person. Rather they are a force of nature. The very embodiment of evil itself.
The same can be done with heroes in regards to their virtue. Whether due to their backstory or by nature.
Simonbob
Well-known member
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
Having spoken of Voldemort, how about another case study in badly executed villainy?
Kylo Ren's motives are as chaotic as his personality, which itself is about as consistent as a Pensioner's bowel movements. This isn't even the heir to Anakin Skywalker (a powerful person capable of getting things done, with his own personal demons he at least tried to control, who also managed to pull sci-fi Natalie Portman), let alone Darth Vader.
Kylo Ren's motives are as chaotic as his personality, which itself is about as consistent as a Pensioner's bowel movements. This isn't even the heir to Anakin Skywalker (a powerful person capable of getting things done, with his own personal demons he at least tried to control, who also managed to pull sci-fi Natalie Portman), let alone Darth Vader.
Let's face it, Kylo Ren is Star Wars' Ronan the Accuser (Guardians of the Galaxy Film Vol:1). The 'mewlings of a petulant child' who's destroyed by a dance off.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
So, as a more recent example of how not to do a villain, let's talk about the new rendition of Zurg in the new Lightyear film.
Spoilers warning, of course.
It's a shame really, as aesthetically they had a lot to work with. Zurg's theme is an absolute banger as well.
Spoilers warning, of course.
Seriously, how do you fuck up Zurg? He is one of the most bitch basic antagonist archetypes in history: that of the warlord. He is a robot overlord who wants to rule the universe and will merrily step on everyone who gets in his way, not an old man who wants to "finish the mission." All they had to do was give him a little bit of a comedic flair, and have him effectively command military forces whilst dispatching a few named characters. That and give him his cape. It feels like they tried to over complicate a simple but effective (and imposing as hell) archetype of villain and made a complete mess in the process.
It's a shame really, as aesthetically they had a lot to work with. Zurg's theme is an absolute banger as well.
Aaron Fox
Well-known member
To be honest, we're looking at this as a movie within a movie sort of situation, and movies have to cut a lot of story corners to fit within a very limited window (if a movie is longer than two hours, they get snubbed by movie theaters in the US). Lord of the Rings? Those movies are the exception to the rule. Period.
In addition, it does make some narrative sense that this version of Zurg is that mirror. Problem is, having mirror villains is far harder than it looks.
I think that it is good for a villain to have a complex personality. As in, have someone who isn't a purely evil human being, but rather someone who is a very complex human being. Maybe they have a bad childhood, or a bad upbringing, or bad personal experiences or whatever that turn them evil, but perhaps sometimes with the eventual hope of redemption in or near the end of the story, or maybe even somewhat before that point in time.
The Dragon Ball anime series has some redeemed villains, such as Prince Vegeta, Frieza, et cetera.
Yep, absolutely charisma is extremely vital here. This is sometimes vital for real-life villains as well, such as Adolf Hitler, who initially spoke really quietly at his rallies before beginning to speak much more loudly and captivating his audience. Someone like Vladimir Putin right now also has a lot of memes made of him, which suggests that he's the type of real-life villain who can appeal to the popular Western mind and to Western mass audiences.
I like how Xanatos sent his Coyote lookalike robot to break The Pack out of jail. Quite interesting that Hyena was more attracted to Coyote than she was to Xanatos himself!
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