EU West Gremany (And later just Germany) made pedophiles into foster parents for hundreds of kids and allowed them to be abused for decades

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Reformation was not necessarily bad, as Martin Luther merely intended to reform the Church from within. Protestantism as it happened, however, was. It destroyed (or at least heavily shook) the moral authority of the Church and destroyed the religious unity of the West.

You're wrong right off the bat. It was the corruption that already existed within the church that caused it to lose its moral authority.

Various protestant denominations have had their own issues, being made up of fallible men just as the catholic church is. Blaming Protestants ex-post-facto for the failures of catholicism is nonsense.

The Catholic church's own failings are what cost it its moral authority, much as it was the failure of the church in America in the early and mid 20th century that enabled the cultural revolutionaries to start forcing it out of the center of American culture. Certainly those mercenaries would have tried anyways, but if the church hadn't been ossified with institutionalism and false piety over real spiritual life, it would have been all but impossible to dislodge.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
You're wrong right off the bat. It was the corruption that already existed within the church that caused it to lose its moral authority.

Various protestant denominations have had their own issues, being made up of fallible men just as the catholic church is. Blaming Protestants ex-post-facto for the failures of catholicism is nonsense.

The Catholic church's own failings are what cost it its moral authority, much as it was the failure of the church in America in the early and mid 20th century that enabled the cultural revolutionaries to start forcing it out of the center of American culture. Certainly those mercenaries would have tried anyways, but if the church hadn't been ossified with institutionalism and false piety over real spiritual life, it would have been all but impossible to dislodge.

And no. Church had had its failures and problems, and Luther was completely correct in identifying them. But these problems were wholly institutional, not doctrinal. What Reformation did was shake people's trust in the moral authority of the Church as a whole. That was far more damaging than any failures of the Catholic clergy and the Pope as such.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
And no. Church had had its failures and problems, and Luther was completely correct in identifying them. But these problems were wholly institutional, not doctrinal. What Reformation did was shake people's trust in the moral authority of the Church as a whole. That was far more damaging than any failures of the Catholic clergy and the Pope as such.

The way that you live your life has an enormous impact on your moral authority. If your clergy are endemically corrupt, it doesn't matter if your doctrine is sound, because your leaders don't live like it is, so nobody will be the organization's claims that it is sound.

We're starting to get somewhat off topic here though, even though corrupt leadership and pedophilia is not unrelated to church leadership.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
The way that you live your life has an enormous impact on your moral authority. If your clergy are endemically corrupt, it doesn't matter if your doctrine is sound, because your leaders don't live like it is, so nobody will be the organization's claims that it is sound.

We're starting to get somewhat off topic here though, even though corrupt leadership and pedophilia is not unrelated to church leadership.

That depends entirely on whether said endemic corruption is actually perceived as such. If something is not seen as bad, it will not shake people's trust into institutions. Just look at the Church of Marx or today's Church of Woke: clinically insane and self-contradictory, yet extremely persuasive and powerful.
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
Reformation was also a massive assault on the culture. Compare the Gothic or Orthodox cathedrals to Protestant churches. Protestantism essentially started the mindless campaign against beauty, against culture, which was later taken over by the Marxists and lasts even today in the West. I have only seen photos of Protestant churches, but one common thread is that they are all soulless.
I think you're stretching here. There are plenty of Protestant churches with fine architecture, and the vast majority of Protestant churches don't look much different than small Catholic churches. You can argue that the modern mega-churches have completed failed to embrace good architecture, but I think that has more to do with cost than anything, and it's not like the Catholic Church is still building grand cathedrals in classical styles either.

I mean, the typical historical Church looked something like this:
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The archetypical protestant traditional Church in the US looks like this:
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Very similar lines, material is different, of course, but aesthetically not really that different.

Meanwhile, Protestants have made some quite nice Cathedrals and Churches, for instance:

National Cathedral - (Non-sectarian)
photo3jpg.jpg


Memorial Presbyterian Church - (Presbyterian)
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Grace Cathedral - (Episcopal)
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Trinity Church - Wall Street - (Episcopal)
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St. Philip's Church - (Episcopal)
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Trinity Church - Boston - (Episcopal)
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Bryn Athyn Cathedral - (Episcopal)
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For less traditional designs that are still clearly architecturally beautiful... consider these:

First Christian Church - Phoenix - (Non-Denominational Evangelical)
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Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
For less traditional designs that are still clearly architecturally beautiful... consider these:

First Christian Church - Phoenix - (Non-Denominational Evangelical)
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That is freaking ugly. In fact, it is probably the ugliest church I have ever seen, and I am counting into this such modernist monstrosities as the Concathedral of St. Peter in Split and Church of St.Kirin in Zagreb. As for the episcopal churches, aren't Episcopalians basically a crossover between Protestants and Catholics?

Anyway, I was not actually talking about the exterior design. Yes, Protestant churches can be good-looking on the outside (especially since many older ones are basically inherited from the Catholic church), though they (at least in Ukraine) range from beautiful to ugly. But with Reformation, there actually came Iconoclasm:

In general, I find Gothic and Renaissance churches to be the most beautiful, followed by the Byzantine ones. Baroque style is also not bad, though I find it somewhat overdone. Modern-built churches however are invariably ugly, regardless of their denomination, because postmodernism.

Though I guess we should make an architecture thread for this? Could you or somebody else move the posts?
 

LordSunhawk

Das BOOT (literally)
Owner
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
On the First Christian Church image... See that little building by the big steeple? That's the actual church, the rest is a giant recording studio.

It's an ugly building, I drive by it regularly and always cringe.

It's not as bad as the old Frisby church though...

 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
Reformation was not necessarily bad, as Martin Luther merely intended to reform the Church from within. Protestantism as it happened, however, was. It destroyed (or at least heavily shook) the moral authority of the Church and destroyed the religious unity of the West. All of these had massive negative consequences:

Ever heard of the Borgia popes? The Roman Catholic church, as an institution, had squandered its "moral authority" already. The success of Protestantism (relative to previous dissenting movements) was a consequence, not a cause, there.

Witch hunts only became possible because Church had lost its moral authority. Church, in fact, was against the witch hunts and even the concept of witches as such, because only God can perform miracles.

That's... not actually true.
There are ranks of created beings way above humans in this universe. We call them angels.
We are not alone.

God has set limits on what the fallen angels (Satan and his gang) are allowed to do, but they are far from powerless in the physical world.

Witchcraft was treated as an illusion. But in the Early Modern period, Church gradually lost its authority. This started well before the Reformation - Pope Innocent allowed the Inquisition to pursue witches in 1484. - but was a symptom of the spirit of Reformation. Some 90% witches were killed in Protestant countries IIRC.

Probably because the parts of Europe where belief in "witchcraft" was endemic happened to be the areas that went Protestant?
Maybe in part because the people there had this problem that the papacy just pretended didn't exist?

Now, I'm sure we all know that most of the people accused of being witches were in fact innocent of any such thing. But to simply deny that it's possible at all for wicked humans to be getting power from the forces of darkness?
Dude, read the Bible more.

Until the Reformation, Catholic Church still provided a moral and even practical barrier to conflict in Europe. It helped unite Europe against the external threat - both John and Matthias Hunyadi received most of the help from the Pope, both direct and indirect. It also provided some protection for the noncombatants. But with Reformation, all of this disappeared. Thirty Years War started as a religious war, and was easily one of the bloodiest conflicts to have ever been fought in Europe, all the way up until World War I.

Sorry, no. The RCC in the roughly 500 years between the pope first claiming to be the universal leader of all Christians everywhere, and the time when the kings of Europe decided to take the pope's toys away, was a driving force in declaring war, genocidal war, against anyone who rejected its dogmas.
Go ask the Waldesians how much of a barrier to conflict the RCC was. Or the Cathars, or... oh wait you can't, because they are all dead.

Protestants also abandoned the monastic way of life. Which was a bad thing: monasteries are good for the soul, as the place of quiet contemplation. But they were also a place of learning, and provided support for the communities in terms of knowledge and resources alike.

I hear you. Something like that might develop again, given time. In fact, the desire of various Protestant fringe groups to go and set up their own little community somewhere, apart from the worldly world, looks to me like an expression of the same impulse behind the monastic orders.

That being said, I think you need to understand what many of those institutions had degenerated into, to see why they had to go. Did you think that the problem the RCC has with its infestation of pedogays is a modern one?
Actually, there are reports of this (and denunciations of it) going back a long way. Like the 12th century!

When the RCC clergy won't stop sodomizing small children, I don't want their "moral authority" preserved, I want it burned to the ground!

Reformation was also a massive assault on the culture. Compare the Gothic or Orthodox cathedrals to Protestant churches. Protestantism essentially started the mindless campaign against beauty, against culture, which was later taken over by the Marxists and lasts even today in the West. I have only seen photos of Protestant churches, but one common thread is that they are all soulless.

Well, having personally been inside a fair number of church buildings, of various denominations, I don't share your impression there.
One of my minor interests is trying to guess the denomination of a church building from the shape of it. Anglican churches have a certain look to them. Dutch Reformed ones are quite different, and in a way that seems thematic too. Roman Catholic ones look different too. As do Baptist ones.

Of course we have many denominations now that are too young to have yet developed their own style of architecture, so I can't tell you what a typical Pentecostal church building looks like, for example. But give it time.
Anyway, I think your feelings about church buildings are subjective.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Ever heard of the Borgia popes? The Roman Catholic church, as an institution, had squandered its "moral authority" already. The success of Protestantism (relative to previous dissenting movements) was a consequence, not a cause, there.

That however is a failing of an individual - and nobody ever pretended that the Pope cannot sin. What Reformation did was that it brought the doctrine itself into question, and the authority of the Church as an institution.

That's... not actually true.
There are ranks of created beings way above humans in this universe. We call them angels.
We are not alone.

God has set limits on what the fallen angels (Satan and his gang) are allowed to do, but they are far from powerless in the physical world.

What you are talking about is demonic possession, which is a completely different thing from witchcraft. When a person is possessed, you call an exorcist - because person in question is ultimately innocent and has to be saved. Witches were supposed to have magical powers of their own, gained through a deal with the devil. But that is a problem, because Satan does not have the ability to perform genuine miracles: his power over physical world is nonexistent beyond what God allows him for the purposes of temptation.


Probably because the parts of Europe where belief in "witchcraft" was endemic happened to be the areas that went Protestant?
Maybe in part because the people there had this problem that the papacy just pretended didn't exist?

Now, I'm sure we all know that most of the people accused of being witches were in fact innocent of any such thing. But to simply deny that it's possible at all for wicked humans to be getting power from the forces of darkness?
Dude, read the Bible more.

See above.

Sorry, no. The RCC in the roughly 500 years between the pope first claiming to be the universal leader of all Christians everywhere, and the time when the kings of Europe decided to take the pope's toys away, was a driving force in declaring war, genocidal war, against anyone who rejected its dogmas.
Go ask the Waldesians how much of a barrier to conflict the RCC was. Or the Cathars, or... oh wait you can't, because they are all dead.

What genocidal wars? Waldesian suppression happened in 17th century, well after the Reformation. Cathars were persecuted primarily by secular authorities. Catholic Church itself pursued first and foremost peaceful conversion back to Catholicism, and only resorted to force after papal legate was murdered in 1208.

And both Waldesians and Catahars were heretics, which is something absolutely no monotheistic religion is going to tolerate, ever (just look at all the inter-Muslim warfare... they'd probably kill each other over the length of Muhammad's beard). Catholic Church was hardly unique in its treatment of heresies.

That being said, I think you need to understand what many of those institutions had degenerated into, to see why they had to go. Did you think that the problem the RCC has with its infestation of pedogays is a modern one?
Actually, there are reports of this (and denunciations of it) going back a long way. Like the 12th century!

When the RCC clergy won't stop sodomizing small children, I don't want their "moral authority" preserved, I want it burned to the ground!

Going by that, you can burn down the moral authority of literally every single religious and secular institution. Going back to thread topic, Berlin authorithies placed children with pedophile foster parents for 30 years. Intentionally.

Because, apparently, pedophiles made ideal foster parents. Nothing like a little regular rape to ensure healthy development of a child, after all... 🤦‍♂️

According to some statistics, prevalence of pedophilia in Catholic church is no greater than it is in general population. You only hear about it more because Church is a) a public institution and b) a moral authority.

And if you want to call out a group for organized pedophilia, there targets beyond the Church. Such as elected politicians, mainstream media, and similar (especially Hollywood). And they are being actively protected by the institutions:
Yet we hear of them far more rarely - why?

Of course, if you talk about Vatican specifically, then it is a different story: it has a lot of power, is a public institution, as well as a religious institution. All three of these are markers which increase likelyhood of widespread pedophilia. And pope Francis actively supports Satanic ideologies such as globalism.

But the point is, we don't have a problem with pedophilia in the Church. We have a problem with pedophilia in the society - and there is a push to get it legalized. It is the society itself, as a whole, which needs reconstruction.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
On the First Christian Church image... See that little building by the big steeple? That's the actual church, the rest is a giant recording studio.

It's an ugly building, I drive by it regularly and always cringe.

It's not as bad as the old Frisby church though...


When the recording studio is bigger than the actual church...

American churchianity is its own thing.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Damn it. What is it with Germany and bad ideas?

Luckily, I can truthfully say my last name is Ashkenazi and leave out the fact it's also German.

I love my German heritage, but Germany is associated with too much stupidity and degeneracy nowadays.
Like somebody said - germans are always marching,and always in wrong direction.

But - it is not fault of all germans,only prussians who conqered other german states and lead them to disaster.Becouse they from at least 18th century tended to start wars with stronger countries becouse they have good plan.It worked till 1914,when good plan do not worked and they have no plan B.Becouse they were prussian,so plan B was no needed becouse of their genius.
And they also worshipped state which knew better how people should live.Prussia vanished,but omnipotent state remained.

P.S about protestantism - it destroyed Europe unity and almost gave us to Turks.Now all is left is either state churches with lesbian bishops,or 20.000+ sects which all are real Jesus Church.So yes,it was fatal idea.And first revolution which start destroing our cyvilisation.

So - STATE SUPPORTED PEDOPHILIA - it was possible only becouse protestant rulers made omnipotent state.Protestants in Germany practically vanished,but pedophiles remained.
 

Abhishekm

Well-known member
Like somebody said - germans are always marching,and always in wrong direction.

But - it is not fault of all germans,only prussians who conqered other german states and lead them to disaster.Becouse they from at least 18th century tended to start wars with stronger countries becouse they have good plan.It worked till 1914,when good plan do not worked and they have no plan B.Becouse they were prussian,so plan B was no needed becouse of their genius.
And they also worshipped state which knew better how people should live.Prussia vanished,but omnipotent state remained.

P.S about protestantism - it destroyed Europe unity and almost gave us to Turks.Now all is left is either state churches with lesbian bishops,or 20.000+ sects which all are real Jesus Church.So yes,it was fatal idea.And first revolution which start destroing our cyvilisation.

So - STATE SUPPORTED PEDOPHILIA - it was possible only becouse protestant rulers made omnipotent state.Protestants in Germany practically vanished,but pedophiles remained.
Or and bear with me here the German government is shit, has always been shit and likely always will be shit.

Besides I kinda fail to see where the church was involved in any part of this apart from somebody having probably cracking a pedo priest joke at some point investigating this.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Or and bear with me here the German government is shit, has always been shit and likely always will be shit.

Besides I kinda fail to see where the church was involved in any part of this apart from somebody having probably cracking a pedo priest joke at some point investigating this.

Bavarian or saxonian rulers was mostly OK.Unfortunatelly,prussian take over with their state worshipping,so everybody must turn into shit.
Church was never involved,only prussian rulers for whom church was part of state.And they created omnipotent state which could gave children to pedophiles.
Now we have no prussia,protestants there are joke.but omnipotent state remained,and is giving children to monsters.

In medieval times it would be not possible,becouse state could not decide when orphaned children would go.
 
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