Warbirds Thread

[Harlock]

The English Electric Lightning from the pioneering days of supersonic aircraft. It was made as a point defence fighter to intercept Soviet bombers and optimised to a ridiculous degree for that role. In terms of speed and acceleration it was unmatched until the F-15 and even then could still get off the ground faster

It was specialised to the point where it couldn't be significantly upgraded or used easily in other roles. Very short ranged with increasingly ancient weapons and radar, but still had ridiculous performance with one or two highly tuned fighters having the ability to outrun Concorde and reach almost 90k feet.

Not the most practical aircraft but for its day very impressive and unique

 

[Zachowon]

The YF-23's stealth was better than the YF-22's. There were concerns with the YF-23's weapon bay, which carried missiles on two columns of 3, even though the Northrop/McDonnell's team was sure that even with an ejection failure, the aircraft would be able to bring the missile above it to firing position and launch it(I haven't looked at the patent drawings of the launch bay to know details). One thing that conspiracy theorists bring up a lot is that the YF-22 had subcontractors spread over more districts throughout the US than the YF-23.

EDIT: As for the A-10, of course the Army loves it - it's a CAS aircraft whose costs don't get paid by the Army budget. There's a reason why all proposals to transfer the A-10 to Army control go nowhere, and they don't have much to do with the Key West Accords - as things stand, to the Army, the A-10 is perfectly fine where it is right now.

The Army loves making the air force pay for thier support

 

[gral]

The Army loves making the air force pay for thier support

They sure do - and I don't quite fault them. But this is a situation way more complicated than "durr, Fighter Mafia, durr". There are good points for retiring the A-10 as well.

 

[Zachowon]

They sure do - and I don't quite fault them. But this is a situation way more complicated than "durr, Fighter Mafia, durr". There are good points for retiring the A-10 as well.

Not from the Army's standpoint. Until there is a replacement that is a less multi-role, or at last heavily leaning towards CAS over anything else, the Army needs something faster then a helicopter

 

[Sailor.X]

They sure do - and I don't quite fault them. But this is a situation way more complicated than "durr, Fighter Mafia, durr". There are good points for retiring the A-10 as well.

They could always just make a plane similar to the A-10 with a decent gun and more stealth features added. The Air Force brass have no valid excuse for not doing so.

Edit Back in the day US Navy Boat Units got cap cover from A-10s from time to time. So we love that damn plane.

 

[Zachowon]

They could always just make a plane similar to the A-10 with a decent gun and more stealth features added. The Air Force brass have no valid excuse for not doing so.

Edit Back in the day US Navy Boat Units got cap cover from A-10s from time to time. So we love that damn plane.

The A-10 is loved by all but the ones operating it

 

[Sailor.X]

The A-10 is loved by all but the ones operating it

Which is damn strange. It would be like the Army not liking the M1A2 or the Navy not liking the Ohio Class SSGNs.

 

[Zachowon]

Which is damn strange. It would be like the Army not liking the M1A2 or the Navy not liking the Ohio Class SSGNs.

It is because pilots would rather be high flying dogfighters. Or the Marines not liking crayons

 

[gral]

Not from the Army's standpoint. Until there is a replacement that is a less multi-role, or at last heavily leaning towards CAS over anything else, the Army needs something faster then a helicopter

There are two Air Force arguments to that: first one is they are better suited to doing Battlefield Air Interdiction than CAS(this is an argument they present since Vietnam, at least). I agree that they aren't suited to it - IMO, this should be an Army thing, just like the Marines fly their own CAS.

But at the same time, no one will accept to surrender a mission, even one they don't like and don't want to do, because they will lose funding the second they do it. So, it's a 'either shit or get off the pot' situation, for both sides - the Army wants the mission, but doesn't quite want to pay for it(and A-10s are expensive to maintain), and the Air Force doesn't want the mission, but doesn't want the funding hit associated with losing it.

Second argument is that technology has advanced enough that CAS itself has changed - instead of having A-10 go brrrrr, you can now support troops by dropping a Small Diameter Bomb from a F-16(or a F-35) that was loitering some 5-7,000 feet AGL, and goes back to leisury loitering at the same height waiting for the next call. While this view may be influenced by the interdiction focus of the Air Force, it has some merit.

Were it up to me, I'd give the A-10s to the Army and leave the Air Force to do BAI. Of course, being the logical solution, it'll never be done.

 

[Sailor.X]

It is because pilots would rather be high flying dogfighters. Or the Marines not liking crayons

That reminds me if you want to gag gift a Marine. You can't go wrong with Crayola.

Anywho.........

Respectable Air Force Muscle.

Respectable Navy Muscle

 

[Zachowon]

There are two Air Force arguments to that: first one is they are better suited to doing Battlefield Air Interdiction than CAS(this is an argument they present since Vietnam, at least). I agree that they aren't suited to it - IMO, this should be an Army thing, just like the Marines fly their own CAS.

But at the same time, no one will accept to surrender a mission, even one they don't like and don't want to do, because they will lose funding the second they do it. So, it's a 'either shit or get off the pot' situation, for both sides - the Army wants the mission, but doesn't quite want to pay for it(and A-10s are expensive to maintain), and the Air Force doesn't want the mission, but doesn't want the funding hit associated with losing it.

Second argument is that technology has advanced enough that CAS itself has changed - instead of having A-10 go brrrrr, you can now support troops by dropping a Small Diameter Bomb from a F-16(or a F-35) that was loitering some 5-7,000 feet AGL, and goes back to leisury loitering at the same height waiting for the next call. While this view may be influenced by the interdiction focus of the Air Force, it has some merit.

Were it up to me, I'd give the A-10s to the Army and leave the Air Force to do BAI. Of course, being the logical solution, it'll never be done.

I have heard arguments for the Army paying for the maintenance if the AF flies them still. It saves them both the money, where as they also split responsibility. The Army was trying to make their own CAS helicopter that was more like a jet and the AF said no.

Also CAS will always be favored of large explosions and very very very close range firing. the A-10 will always do better at the code of CAS then the F-35 or F-16. They can still do it and all, the A-10 is just favored more so.

That reminds me if you want to gag gift a Marine. You can't go wrong with Crayola.

Anywho.........

Respectable Air Force Muscle.

Respectable Navy Muscle

They are all so beautiful

 

[Knowledgeispower]

It is because pilots would rather be high flying dogfighters. Or the Marines not liking crayons

By the way how did the marines get that stereotype? Also I suspect that if you give the boys on the ground the choice between a heavy bomber providing them CAS(which they do as the majority of their combat missions nowadays)or an A-10 they'll take the bomber. Mind you the A-10 will still be available more often for the task due to how many missions our bombers have in comparison to their numbers and the fact that they have to be based quite a sizable distance from the combat zone

 

[Zachowon]

By the way how did the marines get that stereotype? Also I suspect that if you give the boys on the ground the choice between a heavy bomber providing them CAS(which they do as the majority of their combat missions nowadays)or an A-10 they'll take the bomber. Mind you the A-10 will still be available more often for the task due to how many missions our bombers have in comparison to their numbers and the fact that they have to be based quite a sizable distance from the combat zone

We don't really use heavy bombers for combat, were use Fighters with bombs.

They have that stereotype because they are generally considered low IQ and dumb, and cayons are different colors so that means different flavors

 

[Knowledgeispower]

We don't really use heavy bombers for combat, were use Fighters with bombs.

They have that stereotype because they are generally considered low IQ and dumb, and cayons are different colors so that means different flavors

As I recall quite a large chunk of the bombs dropped in the CAS role over Iraq and especially Afghanistan have delivered by either B-1s or B-52s. In all honesty they're better suited for dropping ordnance in this role what with dedicated weapons systems officers and one hell of a lot of ordnance and endurance than the A-10. Mind you given how the closet base we base them out of is Diego Garcia if they aren't in the area already you aren't getting them in anything resembling a timely fashion, which is what the A-10s and other jets and the Apaches are for.

 

[Zachowon]

As I recall quite a large chunk of the bombs dropped in the CAS role over Iraq and especially Afghanistan have delivered by either B-1s or B-52s. In all honesty they're better suited for dropping ordnance in this role what with dedicated weapons systems officers and one hell of a lot of ordnance and endurance than the A-10. Mind you given how the closet base we base them out of is Diego Garcia if they aren't in the area already you aren't getting them in anything resembling a timely fashion, which is what the A-10s and other jets and the Apaches are for.

For CAS foghters and A10 provide most. For nornal bombing it is the bombers

 

[PsihoKekec]

The only mission A-10 has is CAS, while other airplanes have other mission, so in case of full out war the army fears that Air Force would divert all the multirole aircraft to other missions and leave nothing for CAS, because no branch likes supporting other branches. Also, opening up in low level flight with god's zipper, has much greater morale effect on ground troops than droping GPS guided bomb from 10.000 meters.

 

[Zachowon]

The only mission A-10 has is CAS, while other airplanes have other mission, so in case of full out war the army fears that Air Force would divert all the multirole aircraft to other missions and leave nothing for CAS, because no branch likes supporting other branches. Also, opening up in low level flight with god's zipper, has much greater morale effect on ground troops than droping GPS guided bomb from 10.000 meters.

We don't just fear. Because we know it would be what they do! The Army doesn't want that to happen since any AAA like guns can hurt the Apche over the A10

 

[Sailor.X]

By the way how did the marines get that stereotype? Also I suspect that if you give the boys on the ground the choice between a heavy bomber providing them CAS(which they do as the majority of their combat missions nowadays)or an A-10 they'll take the bomber. Mind you the A-10 will still be available more often for the task due to how many missions our bombers have in comparison to their numbers and the fact that they have to be based quite a sizable distance from the combat zone

Being that damn near all of my Non Navy military friends are ground pounders. They only wanted one of two planes. Either the A-10 or this Behemoth.

Accept no substitute for the two when it comes to Killy Killy.

 

[Knowledgeispower]

Being that damn near all of my Non Navy military friends are ground pounders. They only wanted one of two planes. Either the A-10 or this Behemoth.

Accept no substitute for the two when it comes to Killy Killy.

I imagine they wouldn't complain if a B-52 or B-1 was the aircraft providing them CAS though especially if it has a full load of ordnance.

 

[Sailor.X]

I imagine they wouldn't complain if a B-52 or B-1 was the aircraft providing them CAS though especially if it has a full load of ordnance.

Um have you seen a B-52 strike? It is not something you want to be close to. And Close Air Support means you are hitting an enemy close to Ground pounders.