Viking Americas, anyone?

Agent23

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I think that a Viking America scenario is a very plausible option, given that it was allegedly one man's decision to forbid further colonization of the newly discovered continent.
What if some of the Vikings found their way south, to the more temperate regions where colonization would have been easier?

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Atarlost

Well-known member
To go south into land worth settling, the Scandanavians would have had to resupply in unfamiliar territory with unfamiliar plants and animals. Remember, the Atlantic Warm Current is off the coast of Europe, not North America. Europe is warm for its latitude. North America's eastern seaboard is not.
 

Buba

A total creep
Yeah, North America's eastern seaboard is a shithole. Besides fishing and whaling.
Nothing worth settling until one gets to the Delaware River.
Mind you - c.1000 the world was warmer than today (fuck you AGW cultists!).
On AH-com there are quite a few - some well developed - Vikings in America discussions, scenarios, TLs and even fanfics.
 

Atarlost

Well-known member
Mind you - c.1000 the world was warmer than today (fuck you AGW cultists!).
This cuts both ways. Early second millenium scandanavians would turn their noses up at climates modern scandanavians would consider balmy.
 

Buba

A total creep
Well, they settled Greenland, never the warmest of places ... which at that time was good for agriculture, though.
It is a bit of a mystery why conjectured Labrador and proven New Foundland settlement(s) not successful. The poor bastards on Greenland held out until the 13th or 14th century before digging up sticks and fleeing to the warmth (!) of Iceland.
Maybe the people using the L'Anse aux Meadows site never discovered the fishing grounds?
 
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Skallagrim

Well-known member
The reason these colonies failed had to do with a factor already mentioned: resupply. Iceland and Greenland both relied on imports from Europe. They actually had a fascinating credit economy, where Icelandic settlers bought a years' worth of supply from Europe on credit, and then during the right season, paid it all off with sheep wool and some other stuff they produced there. For Greenland, it was the same deal, usually with Iceland as an intermediary, and with them providing loads of fish to pay for the stuff they got on credit.

The fact that Greenland went through an intermediary, and their margins were slimmer anyway, ensured that the colony there was always a barely-surviving frontier settlement-- and eventually was just abandoned.

In short: these colonies weren't capable of existing independently for a very long time. Iceland could exist comfortably, but only through trade with Europe. No trade, no Iceland. For Greenland, this was ultimately terminal.

American colonies had an even longer "way to go", far from Europe. Trade was almost impossible. To thrive, they'd need to rely on trade with the natives. A functional trading relationship demands a colony of at least a somewhat meaningful size. This is required, because they need to produce stuff. They can't sell stuff from Europe, because bringing it over isn't all that practical. (Otherwise, supplying these colonies would be possible!) Good as the Vikings were at sea-travel, the whole business of crossing the ocean wasn't yet as workable as it would later become. People structurally under-estimate how dangerous this kind of thing was. These Nordic loons managed it because they were some of the most daring madmen of their age.

Anyway, Iceland had population issues already, Greenland was a marginal outpost... and this tells you everything about the prospects for an even further-out American settlement. If it's established, the people there end up like the lost Roanoke Colony. That is: killed by the natives, assimilated by the natives, or dead from disease or starvation. Take your pick. Net result remains the same.

Conclusion: no, it wasn't all that plausible or simple. If it had been, the ballsy fuckers would have pulled it off. They didn't. Now, is it absolutely impossible? I'm not saying that. But you require really exceptional circumstances. In AH circles, this usually involves some kind of religious reason for a whole load of people (including many women) to permanently travel out in the mysterious West, in order to escape persecution.

Basically: Vikings doing what the Mormons did, but by ship. That's the way to go, if you want to do this.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
The reason these colonies failed had to do with a factor already mentioned: resupply. Iceland and Greenland both relied on imports from Europe. They actually had a fascinating credit economy, where Icelandic settlers bought a years' worth of supply from Europe on credit, and then during the right season, paid it all off with sheep wool and some other stuff they produced there. For Greenland, it was the same deal, usually with Iceland as an intermediary, and with them providing loads of fish to pay for the stuff they got on credit.

The fact that Greenland went through an intermediary, and their margins were slimmer anyway, ensured that the colony there was always a barely-surviving frontier settlement-- and eventually was just abandoned.

In short: these colonies weren't capable of existing independently for a very long time. Iceland could exist comfortably, but only through trade with Europe. No trade, no Iceland. For Greenland, this was ultimately terminal.

American colonies had an even longer "way to go", far from Europe. Trade was almost impossible. To thrive, they'd need to rely on trade with the natives. A functional trading relationship demands a colony of at least a somewhat meaningful size. This is required, because they need to produce stuff. They can't sell stuff from Europe, because bringing it over isn't all that practical. (Otherwise, supplying these colonies would be possible!) Good as the Vikings were at sea-travel, the whole business of crossing the ocean wasn't yet as workable as it would later become. People structurally under-estimate how dangerous this kind of thing was. These Nordic loons managed it because they were some of the most daring madmen of their age.

Anyway, Iceland had population issues already, Greenland was a marginal outpost... and this tells you everything about the prospects for an even further-out American settlement. If it's established, the people there end up like the lost Roanoke Colony. That is: killed by the natives, assimilated by the natives, or dead from disease or starvation. Take your pick. Net result remains the same.

Conclusion: no, it wasn't all that plausible or simple. If it had been, the ballsy fuckers would have pulled it off. They didn't. Now, is it absolutely impossible? I'm not saying that. But you require really exceptional circumstances. In AH circles, this usually involves some kind of religious reason for a whole load of people (including many women) to permanently travel out in the mysterious West, in order to escape persecution.

Basically: Vikings doing what the Mormons did, but by ship. That's the way to go, if you want to do this.

I agree.Some die-hard pagans sailing West,till they found good lands.
Or,some political refugees who must run becouse otherwise some King would send thugs after them.
Why not both?

If they sailed long enough,dutch and english sailors could found in 16th century New greenland on Manhattan.
But - more important change would be diseases.Till 1500 entire North and Central Americas would go throught it - which would certainly destroy any bigger state,like Aztecs.
Spaniards would must take one city after another,not entire Empire in one go.
Weaker Spain - it would change Europe.
 

ATP

Well-known member
The reason these colonies failed had to do with a factor already mentioned: resupply. Iceland and Greenland both relied on imports from Europe. They actually had a fascinating credit economy, where Icelandic settlers bought a years' worth of supply from Europe on credit, and then during the right season, paid it all off with sheep wool and some other stuff they produced there. For Greenland, it was the same deal, usually with Iceland as an intermediary, and with them providing loads of fish to pay for the stuff they got on credit.

The fact that Greenland went through an intermediary, and their margins were slimmer anyway, ensured that the colony there was always a barely-surviving frontier settlement-- and eventually was just abandoned.

In short: these colonies weren't capable of existing independently for a very long time. Iceland could exist comfortably, but only through trade with Europe. No trade, no Iceland. For Greenland, this was ultimately terminal.

American colonies had an even longer "way to go", far from Europe. Trade was almost impossible. To thrive, they'd need to rely on trade with the natives. A functional trading relationship demands a colony of at least a somewhat meaningful size. This is required, because they need to produce stuff. They can't sell stuff from Europe, because bringing it over isn't all that practical. (Otherwise, supplying these colonies would be possible!) Good as the Vikings were at sea-travel, the whole business of crossing the ocean wasn't yet as workable as it would later become. People structurally under-estimate how dangerous this kind of thing was. These Nordic loons managed it because they were some of the most daring madmen of their age.

Anyway, Iceland had population issues already, Greenland was a marginal outpost... and this tells you everything about the prospects for an even further-out American settlement. If it's established, the people there end up like the lost Roanoke Colony. That is: killed by the natives, assimilated by the natives, or dead from disease or starvation. Take your pick. Net result remains the same.

Conclusion: no, it wasn't all that plausible or simple. If it had been, the ballsy fuckers would have pulled it off. They didn't. Now, is it absolutely impossible? I'm not saying that. But you require really exceptional circumstances. In AH circles, this usually involves some kind of religious reason for a whole load of people (including many women) to permanently travel out in the mysterious West, in order to escape persecution.

Basically: Vikings doing what the Mormons did, but by ship. That's the way to go, if you want to do this.

I would use pretender to danish/norwegian/sweden throne who lost cyvil war and still survived with enough ships and supporters.There were many such people in History.
Or,as you said,some pagan remnants.
 

Buba

A total creep
But - more important change would be diseases.Till 1500 entire North and Central Americas would go throught it - which would certainly destroy any bigger state,like Aztecs.
The diseases will change the OTL on their own. The Aztecs i.e. the Mexica, could be wiped out before reaching the Tenochtitlan Valley, i.e. while still nomads in Chihuahua, for instance.
The situation in Central America will be very different to that encountered by OTL Castillians.
 

ATP

Well-known member
The diseases will change the OTL on their own. The Aztecs i.e. the Mexica, could be wiped out before reaching the Tenochtitlan Valley, i.e. while still nomads in Chihuahua, for instance.
The situation in Central America will be very different to that encountered by OTL Castillians.
And,for the best.Not one big state to conqer in one go/especially,that aztec stupidity made them ideal target - if it was not possible,i would belive that they were ruled by spanish agents who wonted create easy target for Spain/
And no genocider religion,too.
Instead - series of independent states which could have iron weapons from vikings,with little human sacrificies and fighting in smart way.
Result - not powerpuff Spain,some indian states would remain independent,other would be conqered - but not by one state.
Later - not powerpuff USA,too.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Basically: Vikings doing what the Mormons did, but by ship. That's the way to go, if you want to do this.

Have a bunch of Vikings remain pagan rather than becoming Christians and seeking to escape to the New World in order to escape persecution?
 
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