United States Trump Announces the Formation of the 'National Garden of American Heroes'

[Zachowon]

Yeah the lack of scientists and Captains of Industry types in general is kinda frown inducing to me. Though I suppose it could depend on the definition of heroes or being heroic or whatever.

I'd probably put Norman Borlaug on my fanficy list. Plus there's dudes like Jonas Salk, Abel Wolman, John Enders etc.

I do like that Amelia Earhart made it and Charles Lindbergh doesn't. Still proves you have to reach a certain threshold of arbitrary palatability to be worth commemoration it seems.

Putting Joshua Chamberlain up there in lieu of a billion other Civil War figures is odd though. Ulysses S. Grant would be an obvious choice. Ambrose Burnside would be ironic too since he helped found the NRA which would be Boss. Joseph Wheeler and James Mosby would be nice picks as well for genuine symbolism and historicity and maximum troll.

Also give Lafayette and Von Steuben a statue. A Frenchman and Prussian who were crucial during the American Revolution and both were technically American citizens anyhow.

The list isnt complete

 

[Abhorsen]

Also give Lafayette and Von Steuben a statue. A Frenchman and Prussian who were crucial during the American Revolution and both were technically American citizens anyhow.

As a side note, Von Steuben is basically America's first gay hero, so adding him would be yet another way Trump is supporting the LGBT community.

 

[Husky_Khan]

The list isnt complete

Yes it's going to have space for up to sixty statues apparently.

As a side note, Von Steuben is basically America's first gay hero, so adding him would be yet another way Trump is supporting the LGBT community.

I can slip nothing under your Gaydar it seems.

 

[Bacle]

Have Lee, and perhaps use him as a Satatue for those Americans lost fighting for the south, as they are still our brothers fighting for them. He can be the head with a plaque lasting other famous Confederrate Generals.

There are not going to be Confederates in this park; they are disqualified based on the stated requirements.

"those who fought for the abolition of slavery or participated in the underground railroad" is the wording used, and no other wording allows for Confederates to qualify.

There most likely will be no Confederates in the National Garden, ever, and nor should there be based on who is qualified in the document posted at the beginning of this thread.

No one in DC is going to advance putting Confederates in their either, because they know that is a quick way to become a political pariah.

 

[Husky_Khan]

There are not going to be Confederates in this park; they are disqualified based on the stated requirements.

"those who fought for the abolition of slavery or participated in the underground railroad" is the wording used, and no other wording allows for Confederates to qualify.

There most likely will be no Confederates in the National Garden, ever, and nor should there be based on who is qualified in the document posted at the beginning of this thread.

No one in DC is going to advance putting Confederates in their either, because they know that is a quick way to become a political pariah.

While it's true that DC is to craven to do anything against the will of the mob, there doesn't seem to be anything to specifically forbid heroes of the United States Armed Forces who happened to once serve for the Confederate States of America. Plus they wouldn't be putting Confederates in the park. Any former Confederates were just that, former Confederates and became Americans soonafter the end of the War. At least any that would be well regarded enough for rightful commemoration in a park like this or any equivalent.

Statues should depict historically significant Americans, as that term is defined in section 7 of this order, who have contributed positively to America throughout our history. Examples include: the Founding Fathers, those who fought for the abolition of slavery or participated in the underground railroad, heroes of the United States Armed Forces, recipients of the Congressional Medal of Honor or Presidential Medal of Freedom, scientists and inventors, entrepreneurs, civil rights leaders, missionaries and religious leaders, pioneers and explorers, police officers and firefighters killed or injured in the line of duty, labor leaders, advocates for the poor and disadvantaged, opponents of national socialism or international socialism, former Presidents of the United States and other elected officials, judges and justices, astronauts, authors, intellectuals, artists, and teachers. None will have lived perfect lives, but all will be worth honoring, remembering, and studying.

Many Confederates are rightly considered heroes in United States military history. Even using a strict interpretation of that term, many served the United States military before and oftentimes in cases served in the US military or government or other public service after the war, making them completely eligible in addition to being heroic icons of American military heritage. Plus none of the former Confederate individuals I already listed would be excluded even using your strict interpretation. It's almost as if I read the Executive Order before making this thread or my subsequent posts.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

While it's true that DC is to craven to do anything against the will of the mob, there doesn't seem to be anything to specifically forbid heroes of the United States Armed Forces who happened to once serve for the Confederate States of America. Plus they wouldn't be putting Confederates in the park. Any former Confederates were just that, former Confederates and became Americans soonafter the end of the War. At least any that would be well regarded enough for rightful commemoration in a park like this or any equivalent.

I think they can be credited for other stuff

I mean there ARE former slave owners who realized their wrongs and helped their slaves and surrounding communities, I think

 

[Bacle]

While it's true that DC is to craven to do anything against the will of the mob, there doesn't seem to be anything to specifically forbid heroes of the United States Armed Forces who happened to once serve for the Confederate States of America. Plus they wouldn't be putting Confederates in the park. Any former Confederates were just that, former Confederates and became Americans soonafter the end of the War. At least any that would be well regarded enough for rightful commemoration in a park like this or any equivalent.



Many Confederates are rightly considered heroes in United States military history. Even using a strict interpretation of that term, many served the United States military before and oftentimes in cases served in the US military or government or other public service after the war, making them completely eligible in addition to being heroic icons of American military heritage. Plus none of the former Confederate individuals I already listed would be excluded even using your strict interpretation. It's almost as if I read the Executive Order before making this thread or my subsequent posts.

I read it; I am simply using the wording as.

You however are simply trying to twist the meanings of words in the document, to try to play a 'gotcha' with me.

And doing so, despite knowing any official attempt to put Confederates up, using the twisted logic you are, would never get anywhere and will not be taken seriously by those in power. Anyone in DC stupid enough to actually push for including Confederate officers under the twisted logic you advance would be laughed out of town, and likely see their political careers trashed as soon as it leaked.

 

[Husky_Khan]

I read it; I am simply using the wording as.

You however are simply trying to twist the meanings of words in the document, to try to play a 'gotcha' with me.

Bro, I suggested those individuals well before you posted your poor reading of the Executive Order. I wasn't trying a 'Gotcha' moment. The fact you think I'm capable of time travel and entrapping you is very bemusing however.

And doing so, despite knowing any official attempt to put Confederates up, using the twisted logic you are, would never get anywhere and will not be taken seriously by those in power. Anyone in DC stupid enough to actually push for including Confederate officers under the twisted logic you advance would be laughed out of town, and likely see their political careers trashed as soon as it leaked.

Except the ones I suggested aren't being honored for being Confederates or other Lost Cause nonsense that you perennially bring up. It's about the symbolism of reconciliation and taking in the full historical context of individuals and their lives and how they can change and evolve and grow. It's really quite striking and powerful imagery if only you would take some time out of your faux outrage and stop labeling everyone who disagrees with you and cares about our military heritage and commemoration and avoiding the pitfalls of the iconoclastic slippery slope as Lost Cause Neo-Confederates.

 

[Bacle]

Bro, I suggested those individuals well before you posted your poor reading of the Executive Order. I wasn't trying a 'Gotcha' moment. The fact you think I'm capable of time travel and entrapping you is very bemusing however.

I was responding to Zachowon, not you, when I posted.

You just chose to jump into a reply that didn't involve you.

I read the order perfectly fine, you are the one trying to twist the words and intent.

 

[Husky_Khan]

I was responding to Zachowon, not you, when I posted.

You just chose to jump into a reply that didn't involve you.

I read the order perfectly fine, you are the one trying to twist the words and intent.

Bro I opened the thread. You just chose to jump in with a non-sequiter. Which is fine because I posted this thread to discuss it all. The fact that now your accusing me of jumping into my own thread is even more hilarious.

And again... Like I originally said it's perfectly valid using the most strict wording and I've justified my arguments for their consideration. You just seem incapable of offering counter arguments beyond racist strawmen and shallow arguments ad populum, the latter of which are so droll and manifestly obvious it's apparent that you just loathe the idea of people barely disagreeing with you. And if you want to play that game it's clear that you misquoted the words of the text yourself by only presenting the one line while I had the integrity to post the entire passage.

You brought up the issue of ex-Confederates originally in this thread. This isn't a mirror, if you bring up a topic don't act so sensitive when people have the audacity to respond.

 

[Bacle]

Bro I opened the thread. You just chose to jump in with a non-sequiter. Which is fine because I posted this thread to discuss it all. The fact that now your accusing me of jumping into my own thread is even more hilarious.

It wasn't a non-sequiter, it was an observation.

It was pointing out that the people chosen for statues so far, and the qualifications, mean Confederate statues and officers are not going to be put in the National Garden.

And again... Like I originally said it's perfectly valid using the most strict wording and I've justified my arguments for their consideration. You just seem incapable of offering counter arguments beyond racist strawmen and shallow arguments ad populum, the latter of which are so droll and manifestly obvious it's apparent that you just loathe the idea of people barely disagreeing with you. And if you want to play that game it's clear that you misquoted the words of the text yourself by only presenting the one line while I had the integrity to post the entire passage.

You have twisted the meaning and intent of the words to try to justify sticking Confederates in the National Garden.

The line I quoted showed why it is very unlikely Confederate statues will be allowed in the National Garden, while you try to extend the 'US Service People' line to cover traitors to our nation.

They betrayed their oaths to the US, they don't qualify, and my 'arguments ad populum' is actually just acknowledging the reality of how Confederate statues will not be in the National Garden, in both the political and social realm.

You brought up the issue of ex-Confederates originally in this thread. This isn't a mirror, if you bring up a topic don't act so sensitive when people have the audacity to respond.

I still replied to Zachowon, not you.

Yet you acted like I was responding to your post with that 'Time travel' line, when I wasn't responding to the post you referenced.

Also, this is only a 'sensitive' topic to people who actively want Confederates in the National Garden and want the Confederacy honored by the nation it betrayed.

 

[Sailor.X]

I think Lewis and Clark are already slated for it, though I agree about Sacagawea deserving to be in it.

MoH's are already eligible, based off what is in the documents. I think Aretha Franklin should be in there, if she isn't already.

Also, Balto should have a statue in their too.

I would add Francis Marion (The Swamp Fox) because he basically made Special Warfare a thing. He learned well from the Santee.

 

[Husky_Khan]

It wasn't a non-sequiter, it was an observation.

It was pointing out that the people chosen for statues so far, and the qualifications, mean Confederate statues and officers are not going to be put in the National Garden.

Yeah it's a non-sequiter. You can feel free to lie to yourself all you want in public. It's obvious you wanted to reignite the discussion and so now we have one.

You have twisted the meaning and intent of the words to try to justify sticking Confederates in the National Garden.

The line I quoted showed why it is very unlikely Confederate statues will be allowed in the National Garden, while you try to extend the 'US Service People' line to cover traitors to our nation.

They betrayed their oaths to the US, they don't qualify, and my 'arguments ad populum' is actually just acknowledging the reality of how Confederate statues will not be in the National Garden, in both the political and social realm.

Again nothing I stated in this thread is in regards to their service to the Confederacy. I'm not sure how hard this is for you to grasp if you have any knowledge of history.. or being able to read my posts. I wanted to add these former Confederates who still ultimately served the United States loyally and honorably and worthy of commemoration as being shining examples of reconciliation and as powerful symbols of that and appreciating the full context of their lives. The fact that you completely ignore my points simply illustrates that your unable to substantially engage me on the issue.

I still replied to Zachowon, not you.

Yet you acted like I was responding to your post with that 'Time travel' line, when I wasn't responding to the post you referenced.

Bro I stated 'time travel' when you responded to me. How can you be a student of history if you can't keep track of what happened an hour ago? And again I never wanted the statues up to honor the Confederacy or Confederates. Like seriously, this is more of your pathetic strawmanning. Everyone I cited so far served the United States extensively and honorably and would be a powerful symbol of national reconciliation. The fact I keep repeating this simply illustrates your historical ignorance and how sensitive you are to people who dare disagree with you.

But please, keep on crying how you were replying to Zachowon like there's a point to that tirade.

For one who whines so much about people replying to your posts, you certainly don't bother reading the ones you do quote.

Also, this is only a 'sensitive' topic to people who actively want Confederates in the National Garden and want the Confederacy honored by the nation it betrayed.

I wasn't referring to the topic being sensitive but you personally. Like how just now you were incapable of realizing I was referring to you personally instead of the topic at hand. Like seriously, it's obvious,. Your just incapable of responding with anything but a strawman. I eagerly await more of the same from your inevitable response instead of engaging me in an actual substantial discussion!

 

[Husky_Khan]

I would add Francis Marion (The Swamp Fox) because he basically made Special Warfare a thing. He learned well from the Santee.

He's a good candidate but there's also John Mosby, the partisan cavalry leader during the Civil War and later Republican politician and public servant.

But also George Rogers Clark who served in the Northwestern theater of the American Revolution and the "original" American Army Ranger so to speak.

One of my favorite parables about Frances Marion though was how after the war he came home to see his former partisan members rebuilding his home after the War since it was burned by the British and loyalists. It was reflected in the final scene of The Patriot. What makes that scene doubly amusing is that several critics, including IIRC Roger Ebert, stated that the scene of them rebuilding the mansion at the end of the movie as not making sense and assumed they'd be busy rebuilding their own homes instead of that of their Commander. Critics always be hating. Though upon actually looking it up, it seems he did give the film three stars out of four.

 

[Bacle]

Yeah it's a non-sequiter. You can feel free to lie to yourself all you want in public. It's obvious you wanted to reignite the discussion and so now we have one.



Again nothing I stated in this thread is in regards to their service to the Confederacy. I'm not sure how hard this is for you to grasp if you have any knowledge of history.. or being able to read my posts. I wanted to add these former Confederates who still ultimately served the United States loyally and honorably and worthy of commemoration as being shining examples of reconciliation and as powerful symbols of that and appreciating the full context of their lives. The fact that you completely ignore my points simply illustrates that your unable to substantially engage me on the issue.



Bro I stated 'time travel' when you responded to me. How can you be a student of history if you can't keep track of what happened an hour ago? And again I never wanted the statues up to honor the Confederacy or Confederates. Like seriously, this is more of your pathetic strawmanning. Everyone I cited so far served the United States extensively and honorably and would be a powerful symbol of national reconciliation. The fact I keep repeating this simply illustrates your historical ignorance and how sensitive you are to people who dare disagree with you.

But please, keep on crying how you were replying to Zachowon like there's a point to that tirade.

For one who whines so much about people replying to your posts, you certainly don't bother reading the ones you do quote.



I wasn't referring to the topic being sensitive but you personally. Like how just now you were incapable of realizing I was referring to you personally instead of the topic at hand. Like seriously, it's obvious,. Your just incapable of responding with anything but a strawman. I eagerly await more of the same from your inevitable response instead of engaging me in an actual substantial discussion!

I read you posts, I read the way you are trying to white-wash traitors to our nation for 'reconciliation' purposes.

Just because the ACW ended does not mean the Confederate leaders suddenly stopped being traitors.

And I'm not the one twisting and contorting the meaning behind the document to try to salvage your decision to say Confederates are qualified to be in the National Garden. So I'd say this more a sensitive topic for you, given all that.

Also, Confederates weren't 'partisans'; they were traitors and slavers serving a traitorous leadership who was fighting to preserve slavery and their own power.

 

[Husky_Khan]

I read you posts, I read the way you are trying to white-wash traitors to our nation for 'reconciliation' purposes.

Just because the ACW ended does not mean the Confederate leaders suddenly stopped being traitors.

If you had any idea of their contributions after the War you'd realize how historically ignorant your statements are. All of our Founding Fathers were traitors and most of them were slave owners. And the ex-Confederates I cited served the Union honorably after the conflict. You just have an irrational hate boner and have to keep derping about them being Confederates because you are incapable of engaging in an actual discussion on the issue. It's pathetic... and hilarious. If you want to have a discussion on the post-war careers and lives of certain individuals I'm more then willing to have it because I do think that it'd be a great symbol of reconciliation.

And I'm not the one twisting and contorting the meaning behind the document to try to salvage your decision to say Confederates are qualified to be in the National Garden. So I'd say this more a sensitive topic for you, given all that.

Again I wasn't talking about the topic being sensitive, but you. You Bacle are very sensitive. And seeing you repeat the same thing over and over again is delicious.

Also, Confederates weren't 'partisans'; they were traitors and slavers serving a traitorous leadership who was fighting to preserve slavery and their own power.

Do you even know anything about Frances Marion?

 

[Sailor.X]

He's a good candidate but there's also John Mosby, the partisan cavalry leader during the Civil War and later Republican politician and public servant.

But also George Rogers Clark who served in the Northwestern theater of the American Revolution and the "original" American Army Ranger so to speak.

One of my favorite parables about Frances Marion though was how after the war he came home to see his former partisan members rebuilding his home after the War since it was burned by the British and loyalists. It was reflected in the final scene of The Patriot. What makes that scene doubly amusing is that several critics, including IIRC Roger Ebert, stated that the scene of them rebuilding the mansion at the end of the movie as not making sense and assumed they'd be busy rebuilding their own homes instead of that of their Commander. Critics always be hating. Though upon actually looking it up, it seems he did give the film three stars out of four.

Those dudes should be in the park too. One of the reason I like Marion so much is a few of my Ancestors rode with him from time to time. Many of the areas he passed through were literally right where I live. He confounded the British at every turn and became a legend rightly so. His name needs to be on more stuff in SC. More than that Calhoun fella.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Those dudes should be in the park too. One of the reason I like Marion so much is a few of my Ancestors rode with him from time to time. Many of the areas he passed through were literally right where I live. He confounded the British at every turn and became a legend rightly so. His name needs to be on more stuff in SC. More than that Calhoun fella.

That's true. Going back over my post, I realized everyone I suggested (or would've suggested like Daniel Morgan or example) were Virginians and it's like good grief... if we're not careful literally every other statue would be of some Virginian considering how large they loomed in the early days of our Republic. Even Thomas Sumter was a Virginian (though he did most of his finest work in the Carolinas Campaign).

Honestly the more that we talk about this, the more we'd have enough for some sort of museum of Special Operations with how varied and storied the history of American irregular warfare actually is.

 

[Bacle]

Do you even know anything about Frances Marion?

Yes, yes I do.

I was not saying Marion doesn't deserve to be there, I was saying John Mosby doesn't.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Yes, yes I do.

I was not saying Marion doesn't deserve to be there, I was saying John Mosby doesn't.

Yeah I know what you said. You just can't elucidate why beyond fapping with the word 'traitor' over and over again. And Slavery of course, which is doubly hilarious if you did actually know anything about John Mosby. Which is why I keep bringing it up, I want other people, with more integrity and far less sensitive then you, to maybe look into it and see how I'm 'whitewashing' anything.

Also, Confederates weren't 'partisans'; they were traitors and slavers serving a traitorous leadership who was fighting to preserve slavery and their own power.

And I'll use the term partisan on whoever I want lol. There's no moral metric for use of the term 'partisan.' Good grief, get over yourself.