Transgender Rights

Marduk

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Do they have the parts?

If answer is yes - they are now X gender/sex/whatever.

Can it be awkward? Yes. But beyond that I don't see the issue.
If we had some sci fi technology like Culture that actually can give them "the parts", that would be a different discussion. The best current medical science does is "crude, mostly non functional imitation of the parts". Disregarding the fact that this still would be some steps away from making them indistinguishable from the other sex, as in they still are the old one by DNA, or by skeletal structure, and that's just a start.
If we had technology to do all that, we would be living in effectively a sci fi world, and the questions around issues like bathroom one would largerly moot, because then the transgender would then be de facto indistinguishable from who they want to be.
Brainwashing is generally bad yes.
If a way to cure, say, schizophrenia, Down syndrome (or at least its neurobehavioral components), or any other mental illness that significantly affects it's victim's way of thinking, behavior and character with a single surgerical operation was invented, would you also consider it "brainwashing"?
After all, it will change the person, a lot. It's quite an interesting medical ethics question.
 
That's a problem. If people don't feel comfortable about exposing their genitals in front of you, their feelings should be respected, no matter how bigoted you believe them to be.
Because this is a violation of the "your right to swing your arms end where the other person's face begins" principle. Sure, a transgender woman may have problems seeing themselves as their physical gender, but that doesn't justify placing actual biological women under stress for said condition by walking to the ladies' room and whipping out their penis.

See, things like this are why I consider intersectionality and identity politics to be inherently selfish. This whole transgender bathroom incident only confirms my belief.

Sure, I'm all for trans rights, but it's kind of difficult to assist people whose rallying cry is basically this:

"Where are my rights? I am an LGBTQWTFBBQ, I am a victim of the world, GIVE ME MY RIGHTS! Responsibilities? Fuck your cis het white male patriarchal responsibilities!"

I'm not sure either if you two understand how public bathrooms work. Are you just walking into bathrooms and whipping your dick out as soon as you go through the door, or what? Nobody is going to see genitals in a women's bathroom because they're all stalls. Even in men's bathrooms I've never seen a dick except in the horrible trough urinals that I'd be just fine getting rid of.
 

Nitramy

The Umbrella that Smites Evil
I'm not sure either if you two understand how public bathrooms work. Are you just walking into bathrooms and whipping your dick out as soon as you go through the door, or what? Nobody is going to see genitals in a women's bathroom because they're all stalls. Even in men's bathrooms I've never seen a dick except in the horrible trough urinals that I'd be just fine getting rid of.

Are you absolutely, positively sure that this is not what actual women who are leery of transgender women going in their bathroom think? Fear of sexual assault can make people come up with some very illogical thoughts.
 
Are you absolutely, positively sure that this is not what actual women who are leery of transgender women going in their bathroom think? Fear of sexual assault can make people come up with some very illogical thoughts.

Why should a made up thing that doesn't happen or even make sense with half a second of thought inform policy?

If someone is walking around intentionally exposing their genitals it could be prosecuted as indecent exposure (or other crimes, depending on state) no matter whether they're trans or not. The standard non illegal use of a women's bathroom doesn't involve any public exposure of genitals.
 

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
I'm not sure cure is the right word.

I agree, that's why I put it in quotes. Just not sure how to refer to such a hypothetical solution (but "solution" might also sound offensive because it implies transgender people are a "problem", there's no fucking word to describe such a procedure without sounding like a dick. Which doesn't necessarily mean the procedure is dickish in itself, just that our language is not suited for such discussions).

Alter? That would work, but cure doesn't fit.

Maybe alter, yes.
 

Nitramy

The Umbrella that Smites Evil
Why should a made up thing that doesn't happen or even make sense with half a second of thought inform policy?

Because playing on irrational fears and concerns and using fringe incidents to paint a certain group of people a certain way is what politicians and other people do in order to gain power? Mind you, I'm not saying "this is right" or "this is wrong", but rather "this is happening".

Also, an odd question: why do some transgender people treat "fine, use this unisex bathroom instead so you don't freak out the actual, biological women" as some sort of insult? There are bathrooms for men, for women, and for people who don't quite fit that criteria already, they should be okay with it, as they finally have a space that won't cause everyone else to start having irrational fears and concerns.
 
D

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Are you absolutely, positively sure that this is not what actual women who are leery of transgender women going in their bathroom think? Fear of sexual assault can make people come up with some very illogical thoughts.

I don’t think an unlocked door gives me the slightest bit of protection against anyone. Each stall is separate, and that’s what matters, so I don’t think preoperative transsexuals using women’s rooms is any kind of problem.


I find the notion that the lack of biological perfection of the reconstruction somehow changes the morality of the process to be absurd. An artificial heart only lasts three years, should we outlaw them?

What I do think is that people who are imperfect as we all are should accept their imperfections. Nobody should be accused of bigotry for refusing to date a transsexual and nobody should be accused of bigotry for accidental misgendering because someone hasn’t put enough effort into voice and appearance to pass. In short, we should all be reasonable and civilised to each other.
 

Nitramy

The Umbrella that Smites Evil
What I do think is that people who are imperfect as we all are should accept their imperfections. Nobody should be accused of bigotry for refusing to date a transsexual and nobody should be accused of bigotry for accidental misgendering because someone hasn’t put enough effort into voice and appearance to pass. In short, we should all be reasonable and civilised to each other.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Except those intersectionality fuckwads, they can all go sit on a cactus for all I care.
 

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Except those intersectionality fuckwads, they can all go sit on a cactus for all I care.
That crowd will label @Punch Card Girl a "fascist that hides beneath a veneer of civility" from my experience. Because if the fascists were widely known for anything, it was for advocating that mild accidental insults are not that big a deal, I guess...

EDIT: *waves to the SV lurkers*
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
As far as I know or can tell, the primary issue, or at least one of the primary issues facing the trans community is the extremely high sucide rate that effect the community. Given that, society should work with that community to try and address that, and implement policies that will reduce that rate.

However, I don't think that increased support for SRS and similar procedures should be one of those things, because the post and pre SRS sucide rates are effectively the same. That goes double for kids, I remember the "huh, Jimmy's acting a bit hyper, time to put him on ritalin" days, and I don't think it would help if we switch out ritalin for puberty blockers.

What does help is acceptance and support of that community. But that's largely the case for the immediate friends and family of trans people, running around on the internet loudly telling everyone how much you support the community doesn't really do much to help them in person. Building a society that treats everyone with respect and kindness is the best way to help vulnerable poeple.

The issue with that is, as usual, how to do so in practice, particularly with kids. If anyone here has heard of the study about "rapid onset gender dysphoria" (ie: kids and teenagers deciding they're trans because it's trendy, because they're young and impressionable, etc), or parents being concerned about things like those Drag Queen story hour events some schools have hosted (because there's a difference between cross dressing. Being trans, and drag, and the latter is something children maybe shouldn't be exposed to) I think you understand where I'm coming from on this, or why some people might oppose them while having no issue with trans people otherwise. Those of you who are familiar with the firestorm of controversy those incidents provoked, or those stories bring used as propaganda fodder by people who do have issues with trans people, I think you can also understand why this topic has to be dealt with carefully, or why the trans community is so defensive about it.

That said, a culture that accepts and supports trans people also needs to have room to criticize bad actors within that community. There's an ongoing case in Canada about a person named Johnathan/Jessica Yaniv, who basically used Canada's laws mandating protection for trans people as a tool to threaten and harass people with bogus antidiscrimation suits, and abused similar laws in order to suppress news and public discussion about their actions. Yaniv is obviously a bad actor abusing those laws and doesn't represent anything close to the average or mainstream trans person, but they do suggest that perhaps we should consider how our current laws are set up and ensure there's a balance between protecting vulnerable people and providing tools for bad actors to use.
 
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almostinsane

Well-known member
I'm more libertarian on this issue myself. I think people should be free to do as they wish and that there can be an accommodation both camps can live with. I think the surgery should be postponed until 18 as that is the age of legal responsibility. Respectfully, I'm not sure anyone has the self-awareness to make that decision under 18. I find it puzzling why anyone would claim that individuals under 18 do not have the maturity to vote, serve in the military, live on their own, etc., but they do have the maturity to make this decision. Of course, there need to be legal protections from harassment and violence. I think that everyone here can agree on that.
 

Redlance

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Because playing on irrational fears and concerns and using fringe incidents to paint a certain group of people a certain way is what politicians and other people do in order to gain power?

I admit I haven’t been keeping up on the literature or case studies, but have there been any documented incidents of someone claiming to be transgendered assaulting a woman in a bathroom?
 
D

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I don’t understand Yaniv at all. I can’t fathom how a real woman would want to show off such a profound and sexual deformity, if you will, to other women. Really, I suppose my point boils down to the argument that expecting feminine essentialism and conformity from true transsexuals while engaging in a reasonable amount of gatekeeping is an eminently reasonable and principled position.
 

Battlegrinder

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I admit I haven’t been keeping up on the literature or case studies, but have there been any documented incidents of someone claiming to be transgendered assaulting a woman in a bathroom?

As far as I'm aware, no, and if you're the type to sexually assault random strangers you probably don't care that about also getting charged with trespassing or whatever. There have been cases of creeps using it to spy on women or wanted to do so (I know Yaniv did the latter), but no actually assaults.

From what I've seen, the more common objection to trans bathroom stuff is that it makes other people in the bathroom uncomfortable to have someone that's visibly not of the "correct" gender using the same bathroom, which is more a legitimate problem. One person's wish to use the restroom they feel comfortable using should not give them the right to make everyone else uncomfortable...but that's also a shaky basis for legislation.


I don’t understand Yaniv at all. I can’t fathom how a real woman would want to show off such a profound and sexual deformity, if you will, to other women. Really, I suppose my point boils down to the argument that expecting feminine essentialism and conformity from true transsexuals while engaging in a reasonable amount of gatekeeping is an eminently reasonable and principled position.

So, what does that mean in practice? Transwomen can use the women's locker room, but only if they can pass as a cis women?
 
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D

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As far as I'm aware, no, and if you're the type to sexually assault random strangers you probably don't care that about also getting charged with trespassing or whatever. There have been cases of creeps using it to spy on women or wanted to do so (I know Yaniv did the latter), but no actually assaults.

From what I've seen, the more common objection to trans bathroom stuff is that it makes other people in the bathroom uncomfortable to have someone that's visibly not of the "correct" gender using the same bathroom, which is more a legitimate problem. On person's wish to use the restroom they feel comfortable using should not give them the right to make everyone else uncomfortable...but that's also a shaky basis for legislation.




So, what does that mean in practice? Transwomen can use the women's locker room, but only if they can pass as a cis women?


Bathrooms after a medical diagnosis, lockers and showers after surgery. That’s what I am comfortable with. To be honest the sophistication of the surgery is irrelevant, the absence of male characteristics is critical. I would prefer a definition of “if you look like you belong in a space, then you belong in a space,” since I don’t regard these medical arguments as anything other than liberalism a century out of date. But since we cannot legislate on that grounds in the modern world, the definition in the first sentence is workable.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
Your body your choice.

If some one wants to get gender reassignment or live as the opasit gender then in my opinion that very personal decision is none of my business.

How ever there is a difference between being trangendered and being an entitled asshole, I'm cool with transgendered people but the entitled assholes can go fuck themselves. And I'm not blaming the transgendered community for having assholes because every freaking group above the number 10 has at least one asshole in it.
 

prinCZess

Warrior, Writer, Performer, Perv
Bathroom bills seem to be a solution looking for a problem--I've not had referenced much of any actual cases of assault occurring with regards to trans individuals in the restroom they feel is appropriate. Perhaps a minor concern is the potential of someone who fails to pass in a restroom causing confusion and stoking discomfort in other people, but that seems like it can be dealt with on a lower-level and with a metaphorical smack to the back of the head on the non-passing individual to consider things (and, honestly, I don't know if this has any business being a concern either. Probably not).

People should be, on medical recommendation, free to transition (and people should refer to them by the gender they wish). Perhaps they'd be in some cases better served by counseling but...I am not a psychologist and it's, frankly, not my call to make either way. The wrinkles, I think, come in terms of how military service or participation in pro sports relates. In the former case because trans status, even with transitioning, retains a massive suicide rate and piling on stress, potentially from combat, onto that seems irresponsible and as a poor investment for the military where other health conditions also get weighed for suitability. In the latter case because--anecdotally--we've seen transwomen seeing success in sports fields with no comparable transmen in men's sports, so there seems to be a degree of biological advantage carrying-over, and that doesn't seem a fair situation.
 

Marduk

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but that seems like it can be dealt with on a lower-level and with a metaphorical smack to the back of the head on the non-passing individual to consider things (and, honestly, I don't know if this has any business being a concern either. Probably not).
I think it would be a perfect solution in general, however the reality is that transgender activists are a litigious and drama loving sort, and modern American media sphere is also a litigious and drama loving sort, so combining the tendencies of the two, it's inevitable that cases where such a smack would be needed and delivered would certainly end up in the media, and probably, also court of law, couched in language about "hate", "human rights", "protected minorities", "unequal treatment" and "discrimination", demanding crazy sounding amounts of money in compensation.
That's where a "bathroom bill solution" comes in i think.
 

FriedCFour

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If some one wants to get gender reassignment or live as the opasit gender then in my opinion that very personal decision is none of my business.
Yeah I dont care about that. The problem is compulsion on behavior of others. There are several prominent, predatory individuals using the trans identity as a shield to abuse others, and they are able to do this uniquely. Things like translifeline, a fake charity used to get hundreds of thousands of dollars under the guise of being a suicide hotline for transpeople that had like a 2% rate of accepting calls whos two founders burned the money eating lavishly and taking trips around the world. Stefonknee, who has been blown up as transactivist by much of the media who says they are a six year old girl and is a sexual predator that is allowed around children. Jessica Yaniv, who shutdown over a dozen businesses because they refused to wax their balls, who is also a pedophile and predator.

The problem is in places like Canada where they have made a legal gender change the easiest thing in the world and then have the vexatious litigants wetdream and requires you to serve people who look exactly like a man who are doing this to get off and get money from you. Then theres the problem of it seems like side effects arent really talked about as much like this.


Or Jazz Jennings who had a necrotized SRS and had immense difficulties because of early hormone blockers. Kids transistioning is also highly troubling to me. At an early age you just dont know yourself that well to make a massive life altering decision like that. All of that is very concerning to me.
 

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