Important TOS Update Discussion

[LordSunhawk]

Due to numerous issues of unacceptable user behavior, I am updating the Terms of Service to include the following.

p. The Endorsement, Promotion, or Advocacy of Anti-Semitism, Anti-Semitic Conspiracy Theories, or practices and policies thereof.

I have very little tolerance for anti-Semitism in general. Lately an increasing number of posters are happily winking and nodding towards this and I am done with simply expecting the user base to police itself. Going forward, this will be enforced as a TOS violation.

We will not be retroactively enforcing this rule. I refuse to engage in ex post facto enforcement, nor do I approve of hitting people for something that wasn't clearly against the rules at the time of their actions.

Several notes. No, this does not mean that 'criticizing George Soros is anti-Semitic', going after Soros for what he has done is perfectly fine, making the conspiracy hopscotch jump of 'Soros is a Jew therefore Jews are...' is not acceptable, likewise with any other individual.

Also, while it is perfectly acceptable to criticize Israel, it is not acceptable to single them out based only on their Jewish identity or hold them to standards that nobody else is expected to be held to. I will not allow the masking of anti-Semitism under the rhetorical dodge of 'I'm really just anti-Zionist', but at the same token this does not shield Israel from criticism when they do something stupid or wrong.

 

[S'task]

We will not be retroactively enforcing this rule. I refuse to engage in ex post facto enforcement, nor do I approve of hitting people for something that wasn't clearly against the rules at the time of their actions.

Just for clarity, the new rule is effective: May 12th, 2025, as of 1845 EDT (2245 GMT).

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

So when are we adding loxism to the ToS? And every other kind of anti-racial-group sentiment (justified or otherwise)? ;V

Just think it's a little on the nose that, as usual, a hyperminority ethno-religion gets special treatment. I kind of have fatigue from how often it happens.

 

[mrttao]

This is a slippery slope.
First my people get special protections.
Next all minorities get special protections. For the sake of fairness.
Slowly the site demographic changes. And you end up with another censored lefty website where no disucssion is possible.

Honestly, I would rather debate literal nazies than yet another person with TDS who calls ME a nazi for voting for Trump or not wanting to castrate children.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

This is a slippery slope.
First my people get special protections.
Next all minorities get special protections. For the sake of fairness.
Slowly the site demographic changes. And you end up with another censored lefty website where no disucssion is possible.

Honestly, I would rather debate literal nazies than yet another person with TDS who calls ME a nazi for voting for Trump or not wanting to castrate children.

Calling it. Censorship is going to increase dramatically over the upcoming year. Once this stuff happens, it continues, without exception.
Sietch? More like Reddit2: Dune Boogaloo

 

[Captain X]

Oh teh noes, you can't constantly complain about how the joos are conspiring together to steal your money or whatever.

 

[mrttao]

Calling it. Censorship is going to increase dramatically over the upcoming year. Once this stuff happens, it continues, without exception.
Sietch? More like Reddit2: Dune Boogaloo

another issue is staff.
a site is not run by one person. so there will be a gradual shift in the staff as they get stricter and stricter is their "protection" of minorities from criticism.

We literally saw it happen in SB, SV, and QQ.

Heck, mozilla foundation voted off their founder for not being lefty enough who went on to found brave.
greenpeace voted off their off their founder for not being lefty enough.
wikipedia... many examples really.

edit: and project veritas somehow got taken over and banished okeefe from the project

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Oh teh noes, you can't constantly complain about how the joos are conspiring together to steal your money or whatever.

So why precisely can't we just specify a blanket ban on every sort of anti-ethnic-group sentiment? If I identify a pattern I am going to talk about it.
If we're bringing censorship into the equation, it better be FAIR censorship at least, HONEST censorship.
"Hey yeah well the investors/advertisers/users don't like it when you talk about any race in a negative light, so we're banning all sentiment along those lines"
Yeah okay I don't agree with it, but it's fair at least.
"We're banning specifically antisemitism because I don't like it as an individual"
That's...Biased? Not fair at all.

another issue is staff.
a site is not run by one person. so there will be a gradual shift in the staff as they get stricter and stricter is their "protection" of minorities from criticism.

We literally saw it happen in SB, SV, and QQ.

Heck, mozilla foundation voted off their founder for not being lefty enough who went on to found brave.
greenpeace voted off their off their founder for not being lefty enough.
wikipedia... many examples really.

Oh yay, more insane jannies too...

How long until Sietch staff start hacking into user accounts like Horton did on FiC?

 

[Jormungandr]

See, I have zero issues with Jewish people, and I think Soros and his globalist ilk are parasites that should be shot for the betterment of the human race. No problems there with the new TOS.

However, while I agree with the TOS update being there for people ranting about things like the literal Nazis did in the 30's, I understand people's anger towards "Jews" who are running actual pedo rings, who are globalists who have anti-Western goals/motives, and who are using their religion/ethnicity as a cover for being horrible people, and more such things.

It's not antisemitism to point this kinda shit out, even if it sounds like it's coming from a batshit conspiracy theorist.

Will calling such things out be against TOS? I agree with this change in principle, but the slippery slope is so real here.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Will calling such things out be against TOS? I agree with this change in principle, but the slippery slope is so real here.

That's a good question, I second it. Where does mere questioning and 'pointing things out' end, and 'anti-semitism' begin?
Without strict guidelines this is just going to get a lot of otherwise normal fine people in trouble...

 

[mrttao]

Also, if there are any genuine anti semites. Banning them for dogwhistles / "wink nudge" means

there is nobody to blunt their extremitism. they will simply be forced into a more extreme space where they are surrounded by actual genocidal freaks and shift to conform with society. as well as lacking the ability to encounter "good jews" who break the narrative. Or exposed to better explanations such as

The jewish conspiracy thing I explained before.
Average working class jew is super gullible and stupid and has been brainwashed from birth to believe everyone wants to genocide him and makes up anti jewish lies (blood liabel).
As soon as a rich criminal does something bad and screams he is being persecuted for being jewish. all the gullible stupid jews come to his defense without question.

Then people look at it and their conclusion as to why all the jews are defending the indefensible is "they must be in on it, it is a conspiracy!" instead of "they are gullible useful idiots".

Actually a great example is the commoner retards protesting DOGE. They are gullible useful idiots, they are not part of the conspiracy, they do not get millions from stolen taxpayer funds. They are just retards that were hoodwinked by their leaders to defend the indefensible and oppose auditing the govt.

Someone who is into the "all jews are part of a conspiracy" thing probably never even heard the above. And it can significantly alter their worldview. Many people ARE static and just repeating slogans they heard. But some people DO think and DO get affected by external arguments.

All together this kind of insulation increases the odds of them hurting someone IRL.

 

[DarthOne]

Consider me part of team ‘this shit never ends well’. Either make the rule more specific, put a blanket ban up on any negative racial/ ethnic discussion or get rid of it.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Also, if there are any genuine anti semites. Banning them for dogwhistles / "wink nudge" means

there is nobody to blunt their extremitism. they will simply be forced into a more extreme space where they are surrounded by actual genocidal freaks and shift to conform with society. as well as lacking the ability to encounter "good jews" who break the narrative. Or exposed to better explanations such as

Someone who is into the "all jews are part of a conspiracy" thing probably never even heard the above. And it can significantly alter their worldview. Many people ARE static and just repeating slogans they heard. But some people DO think and DO get affected by external arguments.

All together this kind of insulation increases the odds of them hurting someone IRL.

Leftists ideologues don't understand that censoring speech doesn't actually make said people vanish into thin air. Instead often it just steels their pre-established beliefs because it now appears (and possibly is, indeed) true, with actors trying to squash said beliefs.
"I don't get it, we banned all the Trump voters! How did Trump win!?"

 

[LordSunhawk]

OK, let me go through some of the concerns.

First, no, this is not about simply -isms, this is about a growing issue on the site where people have been cheerfully engaging in blood libels and direct, sustained, attacks on Jews for being Jewish due to the behavior of individuals other than those people. Normally I would simply expect that allowing people to call out and point out such behavior would suffice to quell it, but that hasn't been happening. Therefore, as the problem grew worse, I started doing it myself, which became utterly exhausting on top of everything else I'm dealing with right now. It came down to two solutions, shut down the site completely, or go on a massive banning spree. I chose to do neither and try to thread the needle by updating the TOS to give the problem children a final warning that their behavior is completely unacceptable.

A simple eye test. Are you slamming an *individual* for that *individuals* behavior, or are you going 'well Bad Person A who does Bad Thing B is Jewish, therefore, Jews are responsible for Bad Thing B'? If the former, you are totally in the clear, if the latter? I believe the 'good bye and good riddance' phrase applies to you.

I am not universally banning generalizations because in general people have been less problematic with other groups. Moreover, such generalizations have far less of a fraught history than anti-Semitism and do not skirt around already existing TOS violations through cute linguistic gymnastics.

You think I shouldn't have done a rule like this? Well, blame yourselves for not policing yourselves. You let the lunatics run wild, didn't challenge them, and some of you just nodded your head and felt 'brave' and 'courageous' for 'truth telling' by your silence.

The mod staff isn't changing, and I will be honest in that there was some significant debate on whether or not to be general or specific with the rule. The decision was made to be as general as possible to give the flexibility to deal with edge cases. I don't want this to become a legal LARP, and like always we will interpret the rule as generously to the users as possible.

 

[Free-Stater 101]

I will give my own two bits when I get home in a few hours.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

blood libels

This is how this nonsense starts in the first place, use proper unbiased and sensible language for god's sake! "Blood Libel" is a nonsense made up jewish term because they have to feel special about themselves in every way, including accusations (true or otherwise) of murder/sacrifices/rape/etc.

This is how normal people converse.
"YOU KILLED THIS MAN!"
"That's lies! Slander! I am not a murderer!"

This is how annoying hyperminorities deal with the same situation, only furthering people looking at them with suspicion by their own deliberate actions. Even when they're completely innocent of wrongdoing.
"YOU KILLED THIS MAN!"
"OY VEY, BLOOD LIBEL! THIS IS TEXTBOOK ANTISEMITISM!"

No they don't all talk like that, but holy shit when they do, it makes them seem like anti-Semitic Caricature from a Nazi comic or something.

When people demand equality, they hear back "THIS IS ANTISEMITISM, GIVE THEM SPECIAL RIGHTS!", and that seriously pisses people off.

It's not just here, it's EVERYWHERE, for every website with 'do not make the jews unhappy!' as a defined rule, find one with 'do not make the Whites unhappy!'. You'll lose the game on the very first site you find.

 

[S'task]

This is how this nonsense starts in the first place, use proper unbiased and sensible language for god's sake! "Blood Libel" is a nonsense made up jewish term because they have to feel special about themselves in every way, including accusations (true or otherwise) of murder/sacrifices/rape/etc.

This is how normal people converse.
"YOU KILLED THIS MAN!"
"That's lies! Slander! I am not a murderer!"

This is how annoying hyperminorities deal with the same situation, only furthering people looking at them with suspicion by their own deliberate actions. Even when they're completely innocent of wrongdoing.
"YOU KILLED THIS MAN!"
"OY VEY, BLOOD LIBEL! THIS IS TEXTBOOK ANTISEMITISM!"

No they don't all talk like that, but holy shit when they do, it makes them seem like anti-Semitic Caricature from a Nazi comic or something.

When people demand equality, they hear back "THIS IS ANTISEMITISM, GIVE THEM SPECIAL RIGHTS!", and that seriously pisses people off.

It's not just here, it's EVERYWHERE, for every website with 'do not make the jews unhappy!' as a defined rule, find one with 'do not make the Whites unhappy!'. You'll lose the game on the very first site you find.

. . . Uhh, no?

Like, while I understand your concern, "Blood Libel" (and to give a source you may find more acceptable) is a very specific thing and doesn't actually refer to what you think it does. Yes, some people use it as a blanket defense; however, staff here is actually historically literate and can tell the difference between when it is wrongly being used as a shield from individual criticism and when it is showing up as an actual anti-sematic trope.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

. . . Uhh, no?

Like, while I understand your concern, "Blood Libel" is a very specific thing and doesn't actually refer to what you think it does. Yes, some people use it as a blanket defense; however, staff here is actually historically literate and can tell the difference between when it is wrongly being used as a shield from individual criticism and when it is showing up as an actual anti-sematic trope.

>Blood libel is when jews are accused of killing christians
Yeah in English we have a term for that. MURDER. And unlike annoying people we don't demand special magic terms exclusive for ourselves.

 

[LordSunhawk]

Did you even bother to read the definition of the blood libel? (note the singular case)?

 

[mrttao]

. . . Uhh, no?

Like, while I understand your concern, "Blood Libel" (and to give a source you may find more acceptable) is a very specific thing and doesn't actually refer to what you think it does. Yes, some people use it as a blanket defense; however, staff here is actually historically literate and can tell the difference between when it is wrongly being used as a shield from individual criticism and when it is showing up as an actual anti-sematic trope.

This is actually a very classic example of exactly what I am talking about when I say useful idiots.

We have buddhists forming a satanic cult and sacrificing children.
We have christians forming a satanic cult and sacrificing children.
We have muslims forming a satanic cult and sacrificing children.
We have atheists forming a satanic cult and sacrificing children.
We have jews forming a satanic cult and sacrificing children.

For every example except jews? yea it happens, some people are crazy. put them in prison or hang them.

But when jews do it? they start screaming blood liabel and all the useful idiot jewish commoners close ranks with them. And then the idiot goyim look at it and go "durr they are all in a conspiracy togther" (because they don't understand useful idiots and assume that the only reason why one defends the indefensible is because they are complicit in it. again, see DOGE and the useful idiots attacking it despite not being complicit in the crimes DOGE is unconvering).

The only reason the conspiracy theory exists is BECAUSE jews insist that no jew will ever murder a child. That jews are a special kind of pure. That other religions and races will sometimes have crazy persons forming a crazy cult. But not jews ever.

I was brainwashed about the evil goyim and their evil blood liabel where they make up stories to justify genociding jews.
But as an adult it took some very cursury examination to:

1. realize that it is very odd how every single religion race and creed has the occasional satanic cult except jews

2. see there were actually credible instances in history where some jews formed such a cult.

3. see that jews always respond in the worst possible way. They act as useful idiots and protect those people by insisting that "the goyim lie! its blood liabel".

This is from ancient times into modern times.
It extends into cases like where epstein ran his pedo sex slave island.
Because it must always be blood liabel.

There are the occasional outcry in israel, by jews. who ask why the fuck does israel keep on child rapists escape persecution by escaping their country to go to israel? And this is always suppressed with "muh blood liabel"