ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Hence my remark in the OP that you just quoted. ;)
Yeah, but I’m saying that the “primitive, easy to hit formation” is actually not as stupid as it seems. The tactical shields just demonstrated the ability to no-sell tank fire, artillery would be equally ineffective short of overwhelming orbit to surface fire which they’re not set up for, and since the shields force point blank engagement and there’s no cover, having the infantry droids deploy in massed formation is simply taking best advantage of their fearlessness and disposability to concentrate firepower as much as possible.
 
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JagerIV

Well-known member
The advances that allow it do... But when used to the bleeding edge, that's always expensive.
On the other hand, you can always get a PC of the same capabilities as a laptop or phone for a far lower price.

These things can be made smaller or bigger. The smaller variants will naturally use fancy materials, more precise manufacturing, better QA and get much more expensive.

Oh it absolutely is. Between materials, redundancies, resistances and so on, a lot of cost saving can be done. Hell, even in reliability - no need to gold plate an auxiliary system to have just 0.01% chance to fail per year, if you can have extra mass budget and use 4 10x cheaper replacements with 5% chance to fail per year.

That would be proportional to how much it needs to move and what drive technology is feasible to make it move.

For cheap and semi-disposable system, for sure. For a space missile cruiser or transport ship that you expect to serve at least 50 years with a lot of moving, you may want a fancy gas core nuclear reactor or fusion drive for sure.

With those numbers 5 tons of fuel don't cost 10k per ton, but 13-15k per ton plus assorted logistical burden (need to invest into tanker fleet), as you have to ship in the fuel itself too.
And then it comes down to expected survivability. If it's 1-5 missions, going as cheap as possible is the best option. Or just skip the platform completely and make the missiles longer ranged or space based to launch from a safer platform that would be used to supply and refuel the platforms.
5-50 or so, the jet style paradigm can work, unless, again, the previous paradigm applies and shifting the fund and logistics into longer ranged or space based missiles is still more optimal.
Still, fighters in war conditions are expected to fly one or several sorties per day, so it's not that great figure. At just one a day, a fairly short 3 month campaign is ~90 sorties, 1800 tons of fuel, at 15k per ton with shipping, that's $24m...
If they are expected to have US military level loss rates and generally fly around for decades and survive hundreds of sorties... Even doubling the weight and cost for the sake of dodging fuel logistics with nuclear engines or something like that is a deal of the century.

Sure, less mass constraints can allow lower cost, but remember what the question is: are space assets in with cheap logistics less mass constrained than terrestrial vehicles on a per platform basis? An AIM-120 costs roughly a $1 million dollars for a 160 kg missile. If we ballooned that to a 300 kg missile for a similar mission, would we get a $500k missile through lower mass constraints? Or are the drivers of what makes the platform (in this case a single missile) expensive relatively insensitive to the total size of the missile? doubling the mass could easily have a lower cost per kg: a 300 kg missile might only cost $1.2 million rather than $2 million, but that's because most of the cost (sensors/guidance system) is relatively insensitive to scale, putting a large fixed cost to the missile, while more fuel and explosive is cheap.

Maybe at the margin you could just squeeze out a lower cost for a higher mass: If the $1 million initial cost is, say 50% sensor, adding 150 kg of explosive and fuel for higher speed/larger blast area at $20,000 might be able to shave $100,000 off the missile cost while preserving effectiveness, So net you get to a $920k missile. But, that would also be only a 8% cost saving for a 100% increase in mass. That might be hard to justify throughout the rest of the supply chain.

Remember your initial argument was over cheaper logistics allowing you to afford more systems through cheaper unit prices: that each individual missile is cheaper, so you can afford more units. Not Each missile costs the same, but is 3x as heavy for a 50% per unit improvement. That I don't see as particularly likely, with how this tech generally works and were the cost bottlenecks generally seem to be.

I'm especially dubious space assets can reasonably achieve lower per unit costs than terrestrial equivalents: space fighters/missiles likely cost at least roughly similar to terrestial equivalent, and likely more. The space AIM-120 weighing 300 kg and costing less than the planetary AIM-120 doesn't seem plausible. At best I would expect you to reach rough parity in capital costs per platform.

How are you figuring 15k? Transport cost is $5k, everything else $5k for $10k total seems perfectly reasonable. It doesn't matter to my general point, but I don't understand the concern. Fuel if anything might be a lighter burden than capital, at least on the interstellar leg of things, because it can likely be secured in system, likely for fairly low costs. Water for example probably has extraction costs in the dollars to maybe $100s per ton. Even hydrogen at current energy prices would be in the range of $2-3k per ton (specifically hydrolox, so 1-6 ratio hydrogen/oxygen: pure hydrogen would be closer to $15k per ton, but pure hydrogen engines would also be getting better delta v per ton too).

I'm not sure of the rest of the criticism: part of the point of consuming fuel is to give a better sortie rate than "immobile" platforms, though a mixture of redeployment ability, so fewer planforms are needed, and increased survivability: even at 5 sorties, going from expending a $10 million dollar system per sortie to a $10 million system per 5 sorties plus $50,000 of fuel is a huge cost saving per sortie, from $10 million to $2.05 million per sortie.

If "stationary" platforms require 300 platforms to fulfill your mission, while mobile ones only need 200 but your burning 4,000 tons of fuel per day, at $10k per fuel the 300 platforms are not the more economic option until day 25 of the campaign, assuming both are zero casualty strategies.

If there are casualties, and expending fuel lowers them, the favorability of more mobile systems increases, and the benefits of flexibility grows too: regular shifting makes setting up "ambushes" harder, keeps the enemy more on their toes, allows responses to enemy action like massing forces or to plug gaps created by those casualties.

Admittedly some orbits are less of a problem: ISS for example gets a launch window over any particular point effectively once every 24 hours for roughly 10 minutes.

iu


Maintaining such a completely predictable orbit makes targeting the platform much easier, leaving it much more venerable. More polar orbits, or narrower effective ranges might give less than 1 a day. Or maybe not. Still doing some more research.

Another site I found did seem to suggest a shuttle to the ISS actually had closer to 2 launch windows every 24 hours, which does make some sense.

kPEPK.png


So, mobility advantage for increasing the number of attacks per time period may be incorrect (though over a planetary scale being able to reposition into more favorable orbits for particular targets on a regular basis may still be valuable) but the survivability advantage seems quite reasonable.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Sure, less mass constraints can allow lower cost, but remember what the question is: are space assets in with cheap logistics less mass constrained than terrestrial vehicles on a per platform basis? An AIM-120 costs roughly a $1 million dollars for a 160 kg missile. If we ballooned that to a 300 kg missile for a similar mission, would we get a $500k missile through lower mass constraints? Or are the drivers of what makes the platform (in this case a single missile) expensive relatively insensitive to the total size of the missile? doubling the mass could easily have a lower cost per kg: a 300 kg missile might only cost $1.2 million rather than $2 million, but that's because most of the cost (sensors/guidance system) is relatively insensitive to scale, putting a large fixed cost to the missile, while more fuel and explosive is cheap.

The cost driver for guided missiles is generally the guidance module, which is primarily a function of sophistication and secondarily a function of size; miniaturizing an equivalent guidance capability into a smaller missile is substantially more expensive.

The legacy AIM-9M Sidewinder has a flyaway unit cost of roughly $71,000, whereas the new AIM-9X Sidewinder -- the same basic missile upgraded a much, MUCH more sophisticated guidance package -- costs around five times as much at approximately $400,000 per.

Similarly, a legacy AIM-7 Sparrow missile cost $125,000, more expensive than the contemporary Sidewinder due to its substantially more complex semi-active radar homing guidance. However, the AIM-120 AMRAAM which replaces the Sparrow compresses an even more sophisticated fully active radar homing guidance into a smaller missile, hence the massive increase in cost to the roughly million dollars each you mention.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Sure, less mass constraints can allow lower cost, but remember what the question is: are space assets in with cheap logistics less mass constrained than terrestrial vehicles on a per platform basis? An AIM-120 costs roughly a $1 million dollars for a 160 kg missile. If we ballooned that to a 300 kg missile for a similar mission, would we get a $500k missile through lower mass constraints? Or are the drivers of what makes the platform (in this case a single missile) expensive relatively insensitive to the total size of the missile? doubling the mass could easily have a lower cost per kg: a 300 kg missile might only cost $1.2 million rather than $2 million, but that's because most of the cost (sensors/guidance system) is relatively insensitive to scale, putting a large fixed cost to the missile, while more fuel and explosive is cheap.
Yes, there would be some savings. Guidance and sensors, with the right design, can be very sensitive to scale, because they are electronics.
Of course "per kg" pricing of missiles is completely random and is going to vary greatly with the missile and its sensors due to the latter dominating the pricing. Unguided rockets cost hundreds to few thousands dollars each, but suddenly jump to few tens of thousands if you put laser guidance on them.
So yeah, if used properly, the lesser constraints would allow building guided munitions out of cheaper components, by compensating for a lot of the EM interference shielding and other factors that make them normally expensive by just slapping shielding material on it.

The main trick with sudden popularity of drones is that by use of commercial components, they can be used to homebrew something of similar effect to a guided munition, at a small fraction of the price.
Maybe at the margin you could just squeeze out a lower cost for a higher mass: If the $1 million initial cost is, say 50% sensor, adding 150 kg of explosive and fuel for higher speed/larger blast area at $20,000 might be able to shave $100,000 off the missile cost while preserving effectiveness, So net you get to a $920k missile. But, that would also be only a 8% cost saving for a 100% increase in mass. That might be hard to justify throughout the rest of the supply chain.

Remember your initial argument was over cheaper logistics allowing you to afford more systems through cheaper unit prices: that each individual missile is cheaper, so you can afford more units. Not Each missile costs the same, but is 3x as heavy for a 50% per unit improvement. That I don't see as particularly likely, with how this tech generally works and were the cost bottlenecks generally seem to be.
For purpose of military calculatuions, in the end it adds up either way. If you have more effective missiles, by all chance you will need less of them, money saved!
Also we were talking about satellites, not aerial missiles, designs of which are far less affected by attempts to spend large amounts of money on miniaturization to dodge few kilograms of launch cost, and then radiation proofing the thing for space, also with the above in mind.
I'm especially dubious space assets can reasonably achieve lower per unit costs than terrestrial equivalents: space fighters/missiles likely cost at least roughly similar to terrestial equivalent, and likely more. The space AIM-120 weighing 300 kg and costing less than the planetary AIM-120 doesn't seem plausible. At best I would expect you to reach rough parity in capital costs per platform.
In most cases, yes, in some, funny effects can happen. Say, ICBM vs SRBM. On Earth, SRBMs are much cheaper. But let's say you have a planetary invasion supporting missile cruiser, and
someone thinking like me guessed that the ground pounders may want long range nuclear weapons for support, and it would be pointlessly silly to ship truck TELs down to make that happen. When he considers what missiles to put on the cruiser, he notices that the terrestial rules for sizes and costs of ballistic missiles go out of the window, because the whole missile is already in space to begin with, and a SRBM, potentially even with further downscaled fuel load and engine, is going to be able to do the job of a ICBM.
In space, any reentry capable tactical missile is more or less a ICBM.
How are you figuring 15k? Transport cost is $5k, everything else $5k for $10k total seems perfectly reasonable. It doesn't matter to my general point, but I don't understand the concern. Fuel if anything might be a lighter burden than capital, at least on the interstellar leg of things, because it can likely be secured in system, likely for fairly low costs. Water for example probably has extraction costs in the dollars to maybe $100s per ton. Even hydrogen at current energy prices would be in the range of $2-3k per ton (specifically hydrolox, so 1-6 ratio hydrogen/oxygen: pure hydrogen would be closer to $15k per ton, but pure hydrogen engines would also be getting better delta v per ton too).
Again, we have established that logistical costs are very much non zero. Any idea how much all the chemical plants to make hydrolox out of materials gathered from local moons and asteroids and then refined into chemical grade would take in tons? We're talking tens to hundreds of thousands of tons here.

And again, the low tech assumptions here are probably not applicable. If you are invading another star system, it's almost certain your state of art (and your peer's) is something better than hydrolox or pure hydrogen, that's XX century tech.
I'm not sure of the rest of the criticism: part of the point of consuming fuel is to give a better sortie rate than "immobile" platforms, though a mixture of redeployment ability, so fewer planforms are needed, and increased survivability: even at 5 sorties, going from expending a $10 million dollar system per sortie to a $10 million system per 5 sorties plus $50,000 of fuel is a huge cost saving per sortie, from $10 million to $2.05 million per sortie.

If "stationary" platforms require 300 platforms to fulfill your mission, while mobile ones only need 200 but your burning 4,000 tons of fuel per day, at $10k per fuel the 300 platforms are not the more economic option until day 25 of the campaign, assuming both are zero casualty strategies.
You don't get it. At larger numbers, beyond few dozens, statistically there is no need for any platforms to move except for dodging. In which case fuel use becomes proportional to enemy attempts to take down the platform, rather than a regular cost.

And then comes planning with cheaper, more expendable platforms - immobile means no need for engines after all, little more than a space box with a comm system and a bunch of missiles or something on it. Something is firing at it? Make it dump its missiles that should be most of its value at whatever shot at it, who cares if it gets destroyed afterwards.
If there are casualties, and expending fuel lowers them, the favorability of more mobile systems increases, and the benefits of flexibility grows too: regular shifting makes setting up "ambushes" harder, keeps the enemy more on their toes, allows responses to enemy action like massing forces or to plug gaps created by those casualties.
Note though that mobility, especially high end kind of it, comes with significant needs in engines and fuel storage, and the related complexity reflected in costs too, yet still in no way guarantees survival - especially with laser equipped enemies.
And no, at sufficient scale response will inherently be always available, you don't get the value of a full coverage sat network. Amassing forces? There is no need to move sats when every minute there are at least a few different sats coming into range.
By that line of thinking, if the ground defenses are not suppressed enough to allow more or less immobile sats to have decent survivability, you may stick to your missile cruisers until then, with their already high investment in engines to rely on for dodging, and leave the sats for a later stage of campaign once the defenses are suppressed more.
Admittedly some orbits are less of a problem: ISS for example gets a launch window over any particular point effectively once every 24 hours for roughly 10 minutes.

iu


Maintaining such a completely predictable orbit makes targeting the platform much easier, leaving it much more venerable. More polar orbits, or narrower effective ranges might give less than 1 a day. Or maybe not. Still doing some more research.

Another site I found did seem to suggest a shuttle to the ISS actually had closer to 2 launch windows every 24 hours, which does make some sense.

kPEPK.png


So, mobility advantage for increasing the number of attacks per time period may be incorrect (though over a planetary scale being able to reposition into more favorable orbits for particular targets on a regular basis may still be valuable) but the survivability advantage seems quite reasonable.
Launch windows like that are built on the assumption of optimal fuel use for the vehicle, launching from Earth rather than to Earth, and probably many other factors too.
ISS orbital period is roughly 90 minutes. A "train" of platforms deployed at equidistant points of that orbit, amounting to, say, 90 sats, will mean that at any point in time, ground forces anywhere on the planet will be able to call on at least several sats to blast something near them, possibly more depending on the weapon system on them, up few dozens.
 

JagerIV

Well-known member
The cost driver for guided missiles is generally the guidance module, which is primarily a function of sophistication and secondarily a function of size; miniaturizing an equivalent guidance capability into a smaller missile is substantially more expensive.

The legacy AIM-9M Sidewinder has a flyaway unit cost of roughly $71,000, whereas the new AIM-9X Sidewinder -- the same basic missile upgraded a much, MUCH more sophisticated guidance package -- costs around five times as much at approximately $400,000 per.

Similarly, a legacy AIM-7 Sparrow missile cost $125,000, more expensive than the contemporary Sidewinder due to its substantially more complex semi-active radar homing guidance. However, the AIM-120 AMRAAM which replaces the Sparrow compresses an even more sophisticated fully active radar homing guidance into a smaller missile, hence the massive increase in cost to the roughly million dollars each you mention.

More less: since the cost driver is relatively insensitive to scale, I would expect mass constraints to not be the main driver of cost. Expensive platforms then going to be driven by red queen race factors: a lot of running to stay in the same place.

You have a $100,000 missile that has a nice 30% kill probability. 6 missiles have a 90% kill probability, a plane volley if operating on fighter scale. Each sortie killing one enemy at $600,000 in munition expended is a generally good trade.

However, enemy comes out with a new countermeasure reduces kill probability to 15%. A 90% now takes 14 missiles, costing $1.4 million, and more tactically critical you 2-3 fighters for the same kills per sortie rate, which means either destroying a specific force takes 2-3x as long, or you need 2-3x as many fighters, at $10s-100s of million in more spending.

A new missile to counter the countermeasure costs $200,000 each. Gets you back to 30%, and a 6 missile volley is a 90% kill rate. This missile volley now costs $1.2 million, 2x as much as prior, but $200k cheaper than using 14 of the old missiles, and more importantly tactically you maintain the same tempo rate, rather than slowing down by 2-3x or needing $50-100 million in more fighters.

Your still paying twice as much to achieve the same effect though.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
More less: since the cost driver is relatively insensitive to scale, I would expect mass constraints to not be the main driver of cost. Expensive platforms then going to be driven by red queen race factors: a lot of running to stay in the same place.
I've just explained how they would be more even more scale sensitive in space than on Earth (where a considerable amount of mass sensitivity does exist because you're not in 0g and keeping shit in air takes fuel)...
You have a $100,000 missile that has a nice 30% kill probability. 6 missiles have a 90% kill probability, a plane volley if operating on fighter scale. Each sortie killing one enemy at $600,000 in munition expended is a generally good trade.
That's 60's missiles, no one wants missiles like that anymore. Modern missiles are getting into the territory of 90%+ pK with correct use, 60-70% with hard jamming, and 1-5% if the target has sufficient missile defenses. For the latter, you may want saturation strike suited or extra hard to intercept missiles.
However, enemy comes out with a new countermeasure reduces kill probability to 15%. A 90% now takes 14 missiles, costing $1.4 million, and more tactically critical you 2-3 fighters for the same kills per sortie rate, which means either destroying a specific force takes 2-3x as long, or you need 2-3x as many fighters, at $10s-100s of million in more spending.

A new missile to counter the countermeasure costs $200,000 each. Gets you back to 30%, and a 6 missile volley is a 90% kill rate. This missile volley now costs $1.2 million, 2x as much as prior, but $200k cheaper than using 14 of the old missiles, and more importantly tactically you maintain the same tempo rate, rather than slowing down by 2-3x or needing $50-100 million in more fighters.

Your still paying twice as much to achieve the same effect though.
Or... you get new fighters that carry 24 old cheap missiles each, optimized with experience simplified for cheaper, larger scale production, even at the price of pK going down to 10%. That's gonna be very lucky when the other guys start using hard kill missile defenses.
Or miniaturize the missiles for the same effect.
That's the dynamic pushed by missile defense systems. First few missiles in a volley may well be useless because they will get shot down, whether cheap or expensive.
 

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