Alternate History The Pleistocene never ended in North America

[Bear Ribs]

I am talking about the first explores that step off the boat. They are literally gonna get wrecked. Remember There is nothing like these beasts in Europe and has not been for thousands of years.

Unlikely. You're presuming this world works like Jurassic Park or some crappy RPG where every single animal automatically knows who the main character is, is waiting along the only path the PC can take, and immediately moves to attack them as soon as they enter aggro range.

IRL a typical male tiger needs a hunting territory of 400 square miles to feed itself. Plop a dude off a boat on shore and the odds are very good there will be no tiger waiting in the reeds right next to him. It's probably in one of the other 399.5 square miles it hunts in, and he's going to come across tiger tracks a long time before finding a tiger.

Now since the megafauna is much, much bigger, the necessary territory to feed itself is also going to be much, much bigger. And, of course, these European explorers have actually already been to Africa long ago, so lions, elephants, giraffes, nile crocodiles, and water buffalo are all known quantities. We're not talking about modern city-dwelling rubes who've never seen anything bigger than a poodle before.

 

[Sailor.X]

Unlikely. You're presuming this world works like Jurassic Park or some crappy RPG where every single animal automatically knows who the main character is, is waiting along the only path the PC can take, and immediately moves to attack them as soon as they enter aggro range.

IRL a typical male tiger needs a hunting territory of 400 square miles to feed itself. Plop a dude off a boat on shore and the odds are very good there will be no tiger waiting in the reeds right next to him. It's probably in one of the other 399.5 square miles it hunts in, and he's going to come across tiger tracks a long time before finding a tiger.

Now since the megafauna is much, much bigger, the necessary territory to feed itself is also going to be much, much bigger. And, of course, these European explorers have actually already been to Africa long ago, so lions, elephants, giraffes, nile crocodiles, and water buffalo are all known quantities. We're not talking about modern city-dwelling rubes who've never seen anything bigger than a poodle before.

North America 100,000 had more different kinds of Predators than 1500s Africa and Asia combined. Just google all of the various Ice Age meateaters and you will see names you normally don't see in Prehistoric TV shows about North America. And The Europeans will have never seen animals like them. And the Nile Crocs they encountered tended to not reach 30ft in length.

 

[Bear Ribs]

North America 100,000 had more different kinds of Predators than 1500s Africa and Asia combined. Just google all of the various Ice Age meateaters and you will see names you normally don't see in Prehistoric TV shows about North America. And The Europeans will have never seen animals like them. And the Nile Crocs they encountered tended to not reach 30ft in length.

So? Nile crocs don't hit 30 feet but do reach over 20, the extra ten feet aren't going to mean a bullet suddenly no longer works. Unless any of those predators are bulletproof, more bulletproof than the mammoths our ancestors had no problem killing with spears and rocks, it doesn't matter that there're 100,000 kinds of them on the continent, that just makes it a rich hunting ground.

 

[Sailor.X]

So? Nile crocs don't hit 30 feet but do reach over 20, the extra ten feet aren't going to mean a bullet suddenly no longer works. Unless any of those predators are bulletproof, more bulletproof than the mammoths our ancestors had no problem killing with spears and rocks, it doesn't matter that there're 100,000 kinds of them on the continent, that just makes it a rich hunting ground.

You never heard of this guy then.



And yes the more length a croc gets the more mass it gets. Which is why very large crocs are effectively Bulletproof. Gustave has been sprayed by all calibers of bullets including 50 Cal and it still did not kill him. He had enough raw mass to soak it up. A ,muzzle loading weapon is not gonna save those Europeans whose boats are being overturned in Rivers and Swamps in NA. And to the Mammoth kills. It is easy to kill old or sick individual animals taking on Healthy full grown adult elephants with spears is considered suicide by many hunter gatherer cultures to this day. Because unless it is alone. Elephants will fight as a herd. And that is a nightmare.



Ancient Humans routinely hunting extremely large mammals is over blown. 99% of the time they are hunting things like Bison, Deer, Horses, Game fowl and Camels. How do we know this simple. We have more Prehistoric kill sites for the aformentioned animals than we have for Mammoths. Like way more. Here in SC we have tons of those sites. But no Mammoth kill sites. None. Why because taking on a 17ft tall mega mammal is not something you do if you have other more easy to kill options.

Ancient Clovis hunters may not have wiped out mammoths after all | Science News

 

[Buba]

Ancient Clovis hunters may not have wiped out mammoths after all | Science News

Meh, the ADL, BLM and Antifa are whitewashing non-White species exterminators and environment wreckers again.

 

[Bear Ribs]

You never heard of this guy then.



And yes the more length a croc gets the more mass it gets. Which is why very large crocs are effectively Bulletproof. Gustave has been sprayed by all calibers of bullets including 50 Cal and it still did not kill him. He had enough raw mass to soak it up. A ,muzzle loading weapon is not gonna save those Europeans whose boats are being overturned in Rivers and Swamps in NA. And to the Mammoth kills. It is easy to kill old or sick individual animals taking on Healthy full grown adult elephants with spears is considered suicide by many hunter gatherer cultures to this day. Because unless it is alone. Elephants will fight as a herd. And that is a nightmare.

Gustave hasn't been "sprayed with bullets" he had three scars that people think maybe might have been from bullets but nobody's really sure.

OTOH we have a much firmer record with Krys, the 28-foot long seagoing crocodile, much larger than Gustave.

What happened? A polish woman killed it with one shot.

Trying to draw conclusions about the whole species over three unverifiable scars is ridiculous. If they were bullets, it proves that he managed to survive in one case, not that all crocodilians are bulletproof. There's at least one human who survived being shot 30 times, does that mean all humans are immune to bullets? Of course not.

Ancient Humans routinely hunting extremely large mammals is over blown. 99% of the time they are hunting things like Bison, Deer, Horses, Game fowl and Camels. How do we know this simple. We have more Prehistoric kill sites for the aformentioned animals than we have for Mammoths. Like way more. Here in SC we have tons of those sites. But no Mammoth kill sites. None. Why because taking on a 17ft tall mega mammal is not something you do if you have other more easy to kill options.

Ancient Clovis hunters may not have wiped out mammoths after all | Science News

Ha ha, oh no sites specifically in South Carolina. Yeah, there aren't actually 50 known butchery sites so it's not surprising that one state lacks one. As for smaller animals, of course they hunted those more, those are more common simply because they can survive on a smaller range. Dude goes fishing he might catch five fish in one afternoon and repeat it three dozen times in one year. Dude goes deer hunting he might shoot two deer a year.

As for the study, that's pretty ludicrous. First, they ignore all kinds of evidence contrary to their position, f'rex the Hartley Mammoth site has a cow and calf pair being butchered there. How is that possible if they're picking off the weak and infirm? Mammoth Central has over 200 mammoths butchered in the same spot, along with 25 camels and 5 horses. Did all the mammoths there happen to die of natural causes in the same spot so humans could conveniently butcher them there or is this a clear sign of hunting activity?

Second, in their penetration study they forgo actual useful ballistic gel instead going for clay. Wonder why?

Oh yeah, because clay is hella tough vs. ballistics. Going off the same bullshit as their methodology, I just proved that mag-dumping a 9mm into a dude's chest can't actually kill him. Actually that's twice in one post we've seen how your method of reasoning would cause us to conclude that humans are bulletproof, something's wrong there.

As a cherry on top they ignored (or were just purely ignorant of) how hunting and killing actually work, shoot a broadhead arrow into a deer and odds are you didn't hit the brain or heart. It's always nice when you get a clean kill like that but more likely it bleeds to death while running away and you need to follow its blood trail fifty yards or so.

 

[Buba]

A Polish woman killed it with one shot.

Slav power for teh win!

 

[Buba]

BTW - re those ballistic tests - 9mm - was it 9x19mm pistol ammo? Or was it one of the several 9mm "elephant gun" cartridges?

 

[Bear Ribs]

BTW - re those ballistic tests - 9mm - was it 9x19mm pistol ammo? Or was it one of the several 9mm "elephant gun" cartridges?

Pretty sure it was pistol rounds. The Study didn't specify but they were testing out a hypothesis about soft body armor so an elephant gun cartridge wouldn't be something they'd expect such armor to defeat anyway.

 

[Sailor.X]

Gustave hasn't been "sprayed with bullets" he had three scars that people think maybe might have been from bullets but nobody's really sure.

OTOH we have a much firmer record with Krys, the 28-foot long seagoing crocodile, much larger than Gustave.

What happened? A polish woman killed it with one shot.

Trying to draw conclusions about the whole species over three unverifiable scars is ridiculous. If they were bullets, it proves that he managed to survive in one case, not that all crocodilians are bulletproof. There's at least one human who survived being shot 30 times, does that mean all humans are immune to bullets? Of course not.

Ha ha, oh no sites specifically in South Carolina. Yeah, there aren't actually 50 known butchery sites so it's not surprising that one state lacks one. As for smaller animals, of course they hunted those more, those are more common simply because they can survive on a smaller range. Dude goes fishing he might catch five fish in one afternoon and repeat it three dozen times in one year. Dude goes deer hunting he might shoot two deer a year.

As for the study, that's pretty ludicrous. First, they ignore all kinds of evidence contrary to their position, f'rex the Hartley Mammoth site has a cow and calf pair being butchered there. How is that possible if they're picking off the weak and infirm? Mammoth Central has over 200 mammoths butchered in the same spot, along with 25 camels and 5 horses. Did all the mammoths there happen to die of natural causes in the same spot so humans could conveniently butcher them there or is this a clear sign of hunting activity?

Second, in their penetration study they forgo actual useful ballistic gel instead going for clay. Wonder why?

Oh yeah, because clay is hella tough vs. ballistics. Going off the same bullshit as their methodology, I just proved that mag-dumping a 9mm into a dude's chest can't actually kill him. Actually that's twice in one post we've seen how your method of reasoning would cause us to conclude that humans are bulletproof, something's wrong there.

As a cherry on top they ignored (or were just purely ignorant of) how hunting and killing actually work, shoot a broadhead arrow into a deer and odds are you didn't hit the brain or heart. It's always nice when you get a clean kill like that but more likely it bleeds to death while running away and you need to follow its blood trail fifty yards or so.

And you are ignoring the fact that actual Hunter Gathers in Africa saying going after Full Grown Bush Elephants is something you really shouldn't attempt with a spear. And to the kill sites no one knows how they died. Was it disease that affected a herd. Did the deaths even happen in the same decade. Just because you have a bunch of bones in one area does not mean the kills all happen at the same time. The Scientist don't know they are assuming it all happened in one kill. Have you not wondered that with such few sites for the claimed kills when Columbian, Imperial, Wooly Mammoth and Mastodon were all over the Continent. I mean if they are such big game hunters then why not sites in every damn state of the Union and Mexico/ Central America. You know the reason. It is because such beasts were not actively hunted. Because going after such animals is a risk you don't want to take because......

1 Large Kills attract Predators
2 It is too much meat for a tribe of Hunter Gatherers.
3 Such a hunt can go south real quick and result in a lot of dead people.

I do have a question. Have you ever had to shoot a large animal that was charging you? I can tell you from personal experience. Big animals are faster than you think and can soak up a lot of bullets before they drop. Add in the fact that a certain amount of fear will affect you. Which will affect aim to a degree. And it may reach you if your rounds didn't hit the vitals. You go Boar hunting down here in the South with a muzzle loader and tell me if you can reload your gun fast enough to take down a very pissed off hog. And you are expecting a bunch of explorers to be Wild Bill Hickok when it comes to aim. The real world is not what you see in a prehistoric documentary made by a bunch of egg heads.

 

[Bear Ribs]

And you are ignoring the fact that actual Hunter Gathers in Africa saying going after Full Grown Bush Elephants is something you really shouldn't attempt with a spear. And to the kill sites no one knows how they died. Was it disease that affected a herd. Did the deaths even happen in the same decade. Just because you have a bunch of bones in one area does not mean the kills all happen at the same time. The Scientist don't know they are assuming it all happened in one kill. Have you not wondered that with such few sites for the claimed kills when Columbian, Imperial, Wooly Mammoth and Mastodon were all over the Continent. I mean if they are such big game hunters then why not sites in every damn state of the Union and Mexico/ Central America. You know the reason. It is because such beasts were not actively hunted. Because going after such animals is a risk you don't want to take because......

Lol wut? Nobody thinks the kills happened at all once, Mammoth Central is near an array of artificial pit traps. It's exceedingly apparent this was a sustained mammoth-killing operation and probably went on for years.

1 Large Kills attract Predators
2 It is too much meat for a tribe of Hunter Gatherers.
3 Such a hunt can go south real quick and result in a lot of dead people.

1 Very few predators can take on a physically active and armed human in the first place, those that can are unlikely to be able to succeed against an armed settlement.
2 Apparently, you think hunter gatherers were too stupid to know how to salt and dry meat or render fat, which they evidently did since we have archeological finds of the tools they used to do so.
3 Gathering berries can go south real quick too, as can just walking when there might be a mudslide or avalanche, or anything else in those conditions. Life is risky and nobody makes it through alive.

And 4: There wouldn't be places with hundreds of mammoth corpses being processed and rendered if your notions were true.

I do have a question. Have you ever had to shoot a large animal that was charging you? I can tell you from personal experience. Big animals are faster than you think and can soak up a lot of bullets before they drop. Add in the fact that a certain amount of fear will affect you. Which will affect aim to a degree. And it may reach you if your rounds didn't hit the vitals. You go Boar hunting down here in the South with a muzzle loader and tell me if you can reload your gun fast enough to take down a very pissed off hog. And you are expecting a bunch of explorers to be Wild Bill Hickok when it comes to aim. The real world is not what you see in a prehistoric documentary made by a bunch of egg heads.

I do indeed, I live right in feral hog central and hunt them regularly. We don't actually use guns that much, I and my buddy usually hunt with dogs and usually just stick them once the dogs have the hog pinned down. Spears worked just fine for millennia, enough that mankind developed a specialized boar spear just to deal with them specifically. The horrors of hunting for food are not some Lovecraft-esque unknown as you seem to imagine.

I would turn your BS back on you. Your ideas about fear and poor aim are what we'd expect from modern, sedentary humans. Humans living the hunter-gatherer lifestyle, or even the age of exploration lifestyle, are going to have the physical conditioning of a professional athlete and be accustomed to violence of action on a scale only a modern soldier with battlefield experience would have. You're trying to sell us on the idea that big animals are going to be an OCP for people thousands of years more advanced than the ones who made similar animals go extinct.

 

[Sailor.X]

Lol wut? Nobody thinks the kills happened at all once, Mammoth Central is near an array of artificial pit traps. It's exceedingly apparent this was a sustained mammoth-killing operation and probably went on for years.


1 Very few predators can take on a physically active and armed human in the first place, those that can are unlikely to be able to succeed against an armed settlement.
2 Apparently, you think hunter gatherers were too stupid to know how to salt and dry meat or render fat, which they evidently did since we have archeological finds of the tools they used to do so.
3 Gathering berries can go south real quick too, as can just walking when there might be a mudslide or avalanche, or anything else in those conditions. Life is risky and nobody makes it through alive.

And 4: There wouldn't be places with hundreds of mammoth corpses being processed and rendered if your notions were true.

I do indeed, I live right in feral hog central and hunt them regularly. We don't actually use guns that much, I and my buddy usually hunt with dogs and usually just stick them once the dogs have the hog pinned down. Spears worked just fine for millennia, enough that mankind developed a specialized boar spear just to deal with them specifically. The horrors of hunting for food are not some Lovecraft-esque unknown as you seem to imagine.

I would turn your BS back on you. Your ideas about fear and poor aim are what we'd expect from modern, sedentary humans. Humans living the hunter-gatherer lifestyle, or even the age of exploration lifestyle, are going to have the physical conditioning of a professional athlete and be accustomed to violence of action on a scale only a modern soldier with battlefield experience would have. You're trying to sell us on the idea that big animals are going to be an OCP for people thousands of years more advanced than the ones who made similar animals go extinct.

Humans did not make those animals extinct. In fact Mammoths lingered on both Eurasia and North America until around 7,600 and 8,600 years respectively. And notice how Africa and Asia did not lose Elephants and Rhinos to stone age people. literal climate change after the last Ice Age and habitat change over 6,000 years finally killed Mammoths off in the Northern Hemisphere. You are acting like Ancient man was Kratos going around god killing. When they were not. Shoot Gompetheres lingered in Central and South America the longest almost to the 6,000 year mark.

 

[ATP]

I think,that you both are partially right.Big Fauna is hard to kill,but - experienced hunters could do so.
Important thing in this scenario - we have relatively small numbers of hunter-gatherers here,and still remaining Big Fauna.
Especially,that Africa proved,that people with spears and bows do not wiped out fauna there.
Indians were not superhumans,so it is not probable that they did so all by themselves.