Alternate History The Pleistocene never ended in North America

[Sailor.X]

In this timeline by act of the ROB. The Pleistocene Climate and habitats never end in North America. The entire content is the way it was 100,000 years ago. Native Americans eventually made it to the Continent. But not in the numbers that were in the OTL. The amount of people on the Continent is roughly 50,000 people maximum. And they only live on the coasts. In the Age of Discovery. The Spanish arrive in North America and find a seen from their worst nightmares. Mega Herbivores in great numbers. Wolves, Lions and Bears the size they have never seen before. Alligators and Crocodiles 30ft in length in the rivers and swamps. And giant birds with 14ft Wingspans attacking them from time to time. Not to mention Animals like Giant Ground Sloth, Smilodon, Glyptodonts. By interactions with the few Natives on the Continent they learn that Gold is on the interior along with other rare items. Does the colonization of North America happen in earnest. Or will the continent be Africa 2.0?

Edit: By act of ROB the Natives are all immune to Old World Diseases. All of them.

 

[Buba]

Messy.
As this is barely 15K since the end of the Eemian interglacial, it is already cold but the glaciers have not pushed into the USA yet - I think. How much lower global asl, for instance? Difficult, if not impossible to calculate, with some many moving variables.
Vegetation zones are prolly waaay down south already, e.g. Florida could be taiga.
Also - if the Amerindians live on the coast, how the fuck to they know that "there's gold in thar hills yonder!"?
Like in all "X is virgin land" scenarios, exploration and settlement of the interior will be centuries behind schedule, like - as you suggest - Africa 2.0, or even "worse".

 

[ATP]

In this timeline by act of the ROB. The Pleistocene Climate and habitats never end in North America. The entire content is the way it was 100,000 years ago. Native Americans eventually made it to the Continent. But not in the numbers that were in the OTL. The amount of people on the Continent is roughly 50,000 people maximum. And they only live on the coasts. In the Age of Discovery. The Spanish arrive in North America and find a seen from their worst nightmares. Mega Herbivores in great numbers. Wolves, Lions and Bears the size they have never seen before. Alligators and Crocodiles 30ft in length in the rivers and swamps. And giant birds with 14ft Wingspans attacking them from time to time. Not to mention Animals like Giant Ground Sloth, Smilodon, Glyptodonts. By interactions with the few Natives on the Continent they learn that Gold is on the interior along with other rare items. Does the colonization of North America happen in earnest. Or will the continent be Africa 2.0?

Edit: By act of ROB the Natives are all immune to Old World Diseases. All of them.

There would be more natives there,and not only on coasts.In OTL they do not have problems with hunting all those animals,why they should have them now?
But,with no or little cities,there would be no spanish or any other empire there.Entire continent would be kind of big Canada - only furs for first 100-200 years,small settlements later.

P.S i would add terror birds,too! i bet,that many americans in this TL USA would love such pets!
And why USA here? becouse it is common mistake in any standart AH.made powerpuff USA,no matter if it have sense or not.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Way too few natives for this to turn into Africa 2.0. I've seen estimates on the pre-Columbus population ranging from 3.8 million to 19 million, with around 90-95% dying from European diseases. That would put the minimum population at around 200,000 and more likely several million, and those numbers didn't hold up at all against Europe. With only 50K and all of them confined to the coasts where they can't get away, they'll be straight-up assimilated into the incoming European population or wiped out entirely.

The wildlife will certainly give Europeans pause, but unless ROB gives them forcefields gunpowder weapons are going to kill them. It's quite possible they'll have to build entirely new weapons to do so. They had to import old German Jäger flintlocks to handle the California Grizzly as the (at the time) modern guns weren't enough to kill them, and I imagine a Megatherium is going to take even more pepper. However, more pepper is going to be available even if they have to bring cannons with them.

 

[Buba]

And why USA here? becouse it is common mistake in any standart AH.made powerpuff USA,no matter if it have sense or not.

Or Stalin killing everybody ...

By Africa 2.0 I understood having a continent with a well charted coast yet an unexplored interior. The non-exploration here being caused by a mix of climate, lack of native guides, lack of any trails, nasty and/or exciting! wildlife, no known resources - it will be grasping about blindly for centuries, every loss - or simly non passage of knowledge about the interior - leading to repeated expeditions to same place.

 

[Sailor.X]

There would be more natives there,and not only on coasts.In OTL they do not have problems with hunting all those animals,why they should have them now?
But,with no or little cities,there would be no spanish or any other empire there.Entire continent would be kind of big Canada - only furs for first 100-200 years,small settlements later.

P.S i would add terror birds,too! i bet,that many americans in this TL USA would love such pets!
And why USA here? becouse it is common mistake in any standart AH.made powerpuff USA,no matter if it have sense or not.

Way too few natives for this to turn into Africa 2.0. I've seen estimates on the pre-Columbus population ranging from 3.8 million to 19 million, with around 90-95% dying from European diseases. That would put the minimum population at around 200,000 and more likely several million, and those numbers didn't hold up at all against Europe. With only 50K and all of them confined to the coasts where they can't get away, they'll be straight-up assimilated into the incoming European population or wiped out entirely.

The wildlife will certainly give Europeans pause, but unless ROB gives them forcefields gunpowder weapons are going to kill them. It's quite possible they'll have to build entirely new weapons to do so. They had to import old German Jäger flintlocks to handle the California Grizzly as the (at the time) modern guns weren't enough to kill them, and I imagine a Megatherium is going to take even more pepper. However, more pepper is going to be available even if they have to bring cannons with them.

The Bulk of Native Americans live in South America. The conditions in North America are too harsh for a large population in North America except on the coasts. And unlike 15,000 years ago their is way more kinds of animals in the 100,000 BC timeframe. Clovis people lived during the easy sauce period. Not the Deathworld period of North Amercia.

 

[Bear Ribs]

The Bulk of Native Americans live in South America. The conditions in North America are too harsh for a large population in North America except on the coasts. And unlike 15,000 years ago their is way more kinds of animals in the 100,000 BC timeframe. Clovis people lived during the easy sauce period. Not the Deathworld period of North Amercia.

The estimates I gave were for the number living north of the Rio Grande. There were indeed even more in South America. But again, unless there's reason to think gunpowder weaponry can't take down the megafauna it's only going to be a speedbump, and much of less of one than the natives were since, y'know, at least the million or so natives were able to employ intelligent strategies.

 

[Sailor.X]

The estimates I gave were for the number living north of the Rio Grande. There were indeed even more in South America. But again, unless there's reason to think gunpowder weaponry can't take down the megafauna it's only going to be a speedbump, and much of less of one than the natives were since, y'know, at least the million or so natives were able to employ intelligent strategies.

Outside of a Cannon. The Spanish, French and English have no weapons that can hurt a 17ft tall Imperial Mammoth, A 20ft Tall Eremotheium, 12ft tall Short Faced Bears, 30 member sized Direwolf packs, Or Smilodon Prides. And when they attempt to go up river in the South they will face Crocs and Gators 30ft in size (Fossils that size have been found in SC dating back to then) They are gonna find out just how much lack of firepower they have compared to Eurasian animals. You can read up on many accounts of Early Explorers from that time encountered to more moderately sized Grizzly Bear and how much of a nightmare fight that was. Now scale that threat up by 10 or more.

 

[ATP]

Outside of a Cannon. The Spanish, French and English have no weapons that can hurt a 17ft tall Imperial Mammoth, A 20ft Tall Eremotheium, 12ft tall Short Faced Bears, 30 member sized Direwolf packs, Or Smilodon Prides. And when they attempt to go up river in the South they will face Crocs and Gators 30ft in size (Fossils that size have been found in SC dating back to then) They are gonna find out just how much lack of firepower they have compared to Eurasian animals. You can read up on many accounts of Early Explorers from that time encountered to more moderately sized Grizzly Bear and how much of a nightmare fight that was. Now scale that threat up by 10 or more.

Now,i want/even if it is impossible/ indians who domesticated all of them,and used against European settlers.
Mammoths for breaking everybody,and bears for their calvary.
Interesting,when somebody manage to defeat them? 1900?

 

[Sailor.X]

Now,i want/even if it is impossible/ indians who domesticated all of them,and used against European settlers.
Mammoths for breaking everybody,and bears for their calvary.
Interesting,when somebody manage to defeat them? 1900?

It would be a sight for sure. A movie needs to be made with this scenario.

 

[ATP]

It would be a sight for sure. A movie needs to be made with this scenario.

Yes,Custer death under Mammoth.And Cortez 300 years earlier.

 

[Buba]

In OTL those monsters were exterminated by dudes armed with pointy sticks and bad body odour.

they will face Crocs and Gators 30ft in size (Fossils that size have been found in SC dating back to then)

So you placing this at the end of the Eemian?

 

[Bear Ribs]

Outside of a Cannon. The Spanish, French and English have no weapons that can hurt a 17ft tall Imperial Mammoth, A 20ft Tall Eremotheium, 12ft tall Short Faced Bears, 30 member sized Direwolf packs, Or Smilodon Prides. And when they attempt to go up river in the South they will face Crocs and Gators 30ft in size (Fossils that size have been found in SC dating back to then) They are gonna find out just how much lack of firepower they have compared to Eurasian animals. You can read up on many accounts of Early Explorers from that time encountered to more moderately sized Grizzly Bear and how much of a nightmare fight that was. Now scale that threat up by 10 or more.

Short-faced bear's only slightly larger than the California Grizzly and the aforementioned Jäger could one-shot them. Mammoth's the biggest thing on the list and we know humans killed them in job-lots using nothing but spears. Smilodon's smaller than an African lion or tiger, and humans killed those with spears. Campo Laborde has an ancient archeological site where Megatheriums were being butchered and eaten on an industrial scale. You're severely misestimating how tough these animals were.

 

[Sailor.X]

In OTL those monsters were exterminated by dudes armed with pointy sticks and bad body odour.

So you placing this at the end of the Eemian?

Nope Giant Gators were in the Southeast at that time The fossils have been found decades ago.

Short-faced bear's only slightly larger than the California Grizzly and the aforementioned Jäger could one-shot them. Mammoth's the biggest thing on the list and we know humans killed them in job-lots using nothing but spears. Smilodon's smaller than an African lion or tiger, and humans killed those with spears. Campo Laborde has an ancient archeological site where Megatheriums were being butchered and eaten on an industrial scale. You're severely misestimating how tough these animals were.

This is not North America where there had already been die offs of several species a few thousand years earlier. This is North America from 100,000 years ago. Before a lot of the Mass Die offs. And still has many species of predators and herbivores that had not gone extinct by 15,000 years ago. Like I said earlier Clovis happened in the more easy time in NA. There is evidence of a few sites of Humans making a go of it around the 100,000 year mark. They didn't last long in that death zone. Only after a few extinctions did Humanity finally get a foothold in the Americas in any meaningful way.

New Evidence Supports Controversial Claim of Humans in The Americas 130,000 Years Ago : ScienceAlert

Also.Teratorn (U.S. National Park Service) (nps.gov)
Humans are very much on it's menu.

 

[Bear Ribs]

This is not North America where there had already been die offs of several species a few thousand years earlier. This is North America from 100,000 years ago. Before a lot of the Mass Die offs. And still has many species of predators and herbivores that had not gone extinct by 15,000 years ago. Like I said earlier Clovis happened in the more easy time in NA. There is evidence of a few sites of Humans making a go of it around the 100,000 year mark. They didn't last long in that death zone. Only after a few extinctions did Humanity finally get a foothold in the Americas in any meaningful way.

New Evidence Supports Controversial Claim of Humans in The Americas 130,000 Years Ago : ScienceAlert

Also.Teratorn (U.S. National Park Service) (nps.gov)
Humans are very much on it's menu.

That very much doesn't support the idea that said humanity died off due to NA being a death zone, in fact the evidence they have suggests those humans were killing mastodons and using their bones as tools, a sharp poke in the eye of the idea that the wildlife was too much for them. There's not going to be any megafauna bigger and tougher than a mastodon around.

 

[Sailor.X]

That very much doesn't support the idea that said humanity died off due to NA being a death zone, in fact the evidence they have suggests those humans were killing mastodons and using their bones as tools, a sharp poke in the eye of the idea that the wildlife was too much for them. There's not going to be any megafauna bigger and tougher than a mastodon around.

Um both Columbian Mammoths and Imperial Mammoths are way bigger than a Mastodon.

And to add. The Europeans will not have advanced rifle weapons. They are rocking Smoothbore in the 1500s. Good luck in hitting anything that is fast like a Lion. Or something that is attacking you from above like a Teratorn.

The fact that the Humans vanished from the scene and did not show back up until 33,000 years ago. Points to them being killed off over time.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Um both Columbian Mammoths and Imperial Mammoths are way bigger than a Mastodon.

And to add. The Europeans will not have advanced rifle weapons. They are rocking Smoothbore in the 1500s. Good luck in hitting anything that is fast like a Lion. Or something that is attacking you from above like a Teratorn.

The fact that the Humans vanished from the scene and did not show back up until 33,000 years ago. Points to them being killed off over time.

Fair enough, I'll retract that Mastodons are the largest, but humans hunted Wooly Mammoths as well so the main point stands. And again, there's no reason to think "eaten by the wildlife" was the cause of humans disappearing, if they actually disappeared at all because that's a pretty fuzzy time for all our dating methods. If they disappeared at all it could just have easily been a virulent plague, a natural disaster like a volcano destroying their hunting/gathering grounds, war with other humans who enslaved and moved them, or a host of other factors.

Smoothbores will have no problem killing lions, actually 1500s smoothbores are a significant advantage. Those old smpoothbores tended to have massive bullets compared to rifles, something around .70 caliber was common and bullets well over an inch weren't unheard of. They delivered much more energy to the target before designers started paring down rifle sizes, perfect for killing megafauna. That's why they had to import antique Jägers to kill the California Grizzly, rifles couldn't but it but an old flintlock with a bullet the size of an avocado pit was just the thing.

Teratorn will go down like a chump from one blast of a blunderbuss. Hunters killed far smaller and faster birds. Given it's size it couldn't be especially fast or maneuverable, likely a giant glider like the condor so it will be easy to hit.

Again, anything humans routinely killed with spears isn't going to be an impossibly hard target for humans with far more advanced weaponry.

 

[Sailor.X]

Fair enough, I'll retract that Mastodons are the largest, but humans hunted Wooly Mammoths as well so the main point stands. And again, there's no reason to think "eaten by the wildlife" was the cause of humans disappearing, if they actually disappeared at all because that's a pretty fuzzy time for all our dating methods. If they disappeared at all it could just have easily been a virulent plague, a natural disaster like a volcano destroying their hunting/gathering grounds, war with other humans who enslaved and moved them, or a host of other factors.

Smoothbores will have no problem killing lions, actually 1500s smoothbores are a significant advantage. Those old smpoothbores tended to have massive bullets compared to rifles, something around .70 caliber was common and bullets well over an inch weren't unheard of. They delivered much more energy to the target before designers started paring down rifle sizes, perfect for killing megafauna. That's why they had to import antique Jägers to kill the California Grizzly, rifles couldn't but it but an old flintlock with a bullet the size of an avocado pit was just the thing.

Teratorn will go down like a chump from one blast of a blunderbuss. Hunters killed far smaller and faster birds. Given it's size it couldn't be especially fast or maneuverable, likely a giant glider like the condor so it will be easy to hit.

Again, anything humans routinely killed with spears isn't going to be an impossibly hard target for humans with far more advanced weaponry.

About that....



Yeah being an experience Hunter and having a highly powerful gun or even multiple is not an autowin against wildlife. They can still get to you and fuck you up. The hunter in question got lucky and he pretty much says so in an interview.

 

[Bear Ribs]

About that....



Yeah being an experience Hunter and having a highly powerful gun or even multiple is not an autowin against wildlife. They can still get to you and fuck you up. The hunter in question got lucky and he pretty much says so in an interview.

Not remotely the same thing. Just about anything, even a small stray dog or raccoon, can kill a human under the right circumstances. Drive humans to extinction or prevent an industrialized nation from expanding into an uninhabited area to gather resources? That's a whole different ball of wax.

 

[Sailor.X]

Not remotely the same thing. Just about anything, even a small stray dog or raccoon, can kill a human under the right circumstances. Drive humans to extinction or prevent an industrialized nation from expanding into an uninhabited area to gather resources? That's a whole different ball of wax.

I am talking about the first explores that step off the boat. They are literally gonna get wrecked. Remember There is nothing like these beasts in Europe and has not been for thousands of years.