The issue of Agri-Worlds

VicSage

Carpenter, Cobbler, Chirugeon, Dataminer.
Ah, the Firefly ration bars. "One of those will feed a family for a month. Longer, if'n they don't like their kids too much."

This does bring up another vital question. Obviously such farms would be absolutely massive. Even with automation, there's a lot of landmass that has to be cared for by people. Megafarms will sadly be a fact, but it does ask the question of how they get all their produce to the factories/starports. Dedicated railways or some other form of train would be the most economical, but would those be paid through by private industry like most of America's or would it be considered public works?
 

VicSage

Carpenter, Cobbler, Chirugeon, Dataminer.
Who was assuming that they wouldn't have cattle? The nitrate fixation doesn't occur from them in the first place, it's usually some type of cyanobacteria or some other nitrogen fixer, like the ones that are mutualists with most beans. There's a reason we adopted the four crop rotation. It's depletion of things like phosphorous, magnesium, or other trace minerals I'm worried about. If you're shipping those off the planet, they need to be replaced, and the soil might not have enough time to recover and replace itself naturally depending on how long you farm it.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
They could import minerals from mineral planets as readily as they export food though. There's bound to be plenty of worlds that are rich in phosphorus et al, but unsuitable to life due to having the wrong gravity, some horrifying poison in the atmosphere, Pluto/Mercury distance from a star, etc. Those worlds can be stripped (possibly via purely robotic labor) of their valuable minerals and have those shipped to the agri-planets.
 

Emperor Tippy

Merchant of Death
Super Moderator
Staff Member
Founder
One of the more common themes of Sci-Fi stories of all stripes is the addition of worlds dedicated to the production and processing of foodstuffs both for military use and export. Whether they arise naturally through commerce, or through some form of governmental decree, these worlds provide nutrition of varying quality to untold billions across their respective sectors. But it raises a very important question to me.

How long can they be sustained?

How long can this state last? If we were to use the Imperium of Man as an example, we've seen some last ~10,000 years. But during this entire process, the food being sent out is going to leach nutrients from the soil. Since it's being sent offworld, they won't be recycled naturally. Would this lead to the depletion of the soil over time? Would the constant export of millions of tons of foodstuff yearly lead to a leaching of carbon from the atmosphere, or would there be sufficient gain from volcanic or other sources to render that effectively moot?

I'm interested in your thoughts on sustainability of farming in either generic or specific settings. They allow for unheard of levels of centralization, the kind of thing you'd see in Caves of Steel or a hive world, but the loss of one of them due to simple overuse of the soil dooms multiple worlds to starvation.

It depends largely on the technology of a given setting/polity and what its concerns are.

I mean realistically speaking, most all Sci-Fi is absolute shit. Stellar mining, for example, should be much more prevalent.

In 40k, one use of agri-worlds is to control Hive Worlds. Say Sagely-2 is a Hive World with a population of a few trillion and can't feed itself, while Sagely-5 is an agri-world with a population of a few million and supplies Sagely-2's food needs. Attacking Sagely-2 is a pain in the ass, but cutting off its food imports is something a few IG regiments and a light cruiser or two can accomplish. So if Sagely-2 gets ideas, just cut off the food and wait for the food riots to adjust the planetary governments thinking.

Although if you are doing agri-worlds properly then they would be largely artificial planetoids. You make a large sphere and pump it full of Hydrogen until it provides the needed gravity, then you build layered farming, processing, and infrastructure levels all the way up with the farming layers using fusion powered lights whose emissions are tuned specifically for the food(s) in question. You simply fuse all the way up to Iron and combine the appropriate elements for whatever else you need (i.e. water by fusing up to Oxygen and combining with Hydrogen). For disposing of waste heat, you fuse up to iron, sink all the energy you can into the iron until it is as energy dense as possible, and then use mass drivers to toss the molten metal into space (ideally on a collision course with a planet you need to heat up to terraform).

Farming planetoids also let you arm and armor the outermost layer so that your food production is protected against enemy action, and they can potentially even move.

Realistically, the most effective method of interstellar travel is to make such a planetoid (with the addition of living space and production infrastructure), give it some massive solar sails, and use the heat disposal mass drivers for propulsion as well. Besides the fusion, we are actually at least theoretically capable of building one of those today (i.e. we have the needed knowledge to do so).

The most obvious answer is that agri-worlds are just continuous importers of... manure. That would solve both the mineral-loss issue of the agri-world, and the material build-up that must necessarily be occurring at the other end...

Not positive that it's canon but I vaguely remember a 40k story where one of Terra's main exports its Blessed poo, seeing as it comes from the Throne World and is thus inherently an extra especially good fertilizer.

You also have to look at energy concerns. A major problem with IRL urban farming is how much grow-lights can add to the electric bill, it turns out it's surprisingly hard to compete with sunlight for cost.

Now maybe you're thinking "Oh, but they have superpower plants, energy won't be a problem, which is fair, but not the actual issue. It's heat. Every last joule you pump into the system will eventually turn into waste heat by hook or by crook. An ecumenopolis, just by virtue of the sheer number of human bodies giving off body heat, their lights, computers, air conditioning, etc. is already riding the ragged edge of physics for how much waste heat a planet can reasonably radiate away*. Adding in an entire agriplanet's worth of waste heat to grow lettuce makes the situation that much more ridiculous.

You can't cheat the laws of thermodynamics.


*Irregular Webcomic! #396

Most urban farming today is spectacularly badly done, largely because it is artisanal production by woke hippies. Fusion and tuned, hyper-efficient, LED's would actually make the energy and heat costs of urban farming cheaper than traditional farming. Plants are spectacularly bad at absorbing the suns output (they don't use the majority of the EM radiation the sun outputs) and growing traditionally means you can't do atmospheric tweaking for better production (plants grow better in higher CO2 environments, for example).

But yes, thermal management is the likely killer of most ecumenopolis ideas. Although even then, Sci-Fi population figures are fucking stupid. I mean a trillion people on a city planet is a joke. Like just covering the surface of Earth in a city with the same population density of LA is only 1.6 trillion people. If you are actually covering the same area in kilometer high towers then it drastically increases; using NYC population density, for example, gets you to 4 trillion. Something like Coruscant or Holy Terra? Where they are explicitly covered in towers hundreds to thousands of kilometers tall (and sunk as far into the crust) and with a population density at least as high as NYC? You are talking a population in the hundreds of trillions or more.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
It depends largely on the technology of a given setting/polity and what its concerns are.

I mean realistically speaking, most all Sci-Fi is absolute shit. Stellar mining, for example, should be much more prevalent.

In 40k, one use of agri-worlds is to control Hive Worlds. Say Sagely-2 is a Hive World with a population of a few trillion and can't feed itself, while Sagely-5 is an agri-world with a population of a few million and supplies Sagely-2's food needs. Attacking Sagely-2 is a pain in the ass, but cutting off its food imports is something a few IG regiments and a light cruiser or two can accomplish. So if Sagely-2 gets ideas, just cut off the food and wait for the food riots to adjust the planetary governments thinking.

Although if you are doing agri-worlds properly then they would be largely artificial planetoids. You make a large sphere and pump it full of Hydrogen until it provides the needed gravity, then you build layered farming, processing, and infrastructure levels all the way up with the farming layers using fusion powered lights whose emissions are tuned specifically for the food(s) in question. You simply fuse all the way up to Iron and combine the appropriate elements for whatever else you need (i.e. water by fusing up to Oxygen and combining with Hydrogen). For disposing of waste heat, you fuse up to iron, sink all the energy you can into the iron until it is as energy dense as possible, and then use mass drivers to toss the molten metal into space (ideally on a collision course with a planet you need to heat up to terraform).

Farming planetoids also let you arm and armor the outermost layer so that your food production is protected against enemy action, and they can potentially even move.

Realistically, the most effective method of interstellar travel is to make such a planetoid (with the addition of living space and production infrastructure), give it some massive solar sails, and use the heat disposal mass drivers for propulsion as well. Besides the fusion, we are actually at least theoretically capable of building one of those today (i.e. we have the needed knowledge to do so).



Not positive that it's canon but I vaguely remember a 40k story where one of Terra's main exports its Blessed poo, seeing as it comes from the Throne World and is thus inherently an extra especially good fertilizer.



Most urban farming today is spectacularly badly done, largely because it is artisanal production by woke hippies. Fusion and tuned, hyper-efficient, LED's would actually make the energy and heat costs of urban farming cheaper than traditional farming. Plants are spectacularly bad at absorbing the suns output (they don't use the majority of the EM radiation the sun outputs) and growing traditionally means you can't do atmospheric tweaking for better production (plants grow better in higher CO2 environments, for example).

But yes, thermal management is the likely killer of most ecumenopolis ideas. Although even then, Sci-Fi population figures are fucking stupid. I mean a trillion people on a city planet is a joke. Like just covering the surface of Earth in a city with the same population density of LA is only 1.6 trillion people. If you are actually covering the same area in kilometer high towers then it drastically increases; using NYC population density, for example, gets you to 4 trillion. Something like Coruscant or Holy Terra? Where they are explicitly covered in towers hundreds to thousands of kilometers tall (and sunk as far into the crust) and with a population density at least as high as NYC? You are talking a population in the hundreds of trillions or more.
irreg0109.jpg

Yeah, Irregular Webcomic was really good at pointing out that kind of thing and doing the math to show how badly sci-fi writers scale things.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
They could import minerals from mineral planets as readily as they export food though. There's bound to be plenty of worlds that are rich in phosphorus et al, but unsuitable to life due to having the wrong gravity, some horrifying poison in the atmosphere, Pluto/Mercury distance from a star, etc. Those worlds can be stripped (possibly via purely robotic labor) of their valuable minerals and have those shipped to the agri-planets.
As i suggested, there would be massive freighters coming to such a planet from wherever the food is going, and their holds would be mostly empty when doing so. Hence, at very little extra cost they could carry some form of fertilizer back when on the return trip.
Ah, the Firefly ration bars. "One of those will feed a family for a month. Longer, if'n they don't like their kids too much."

This does bring up another vital question. Obviously such farms would be absolutely massive. Even with automation, there's a lot of landmass that has to be cared for by people. Megafarms will sadly be a fact, but it does ask the question of how they get all their produce to the factories/starports. Dedicated railways or some other form of train would be the most economical, but would those be paid through by private industry like most of America's or would it be considered public works?
Whoever owns the farmlands may well also own at least some of the railway\road going through it considering the size - many large industrial combines IRL do that. If there was even much of a road to speak of, the agricultural machinery used to harvest and transport the produce may not need more than a dirt path.

And yeah, highly automated megafarms would be the norm.

Most urban farming today is spectacularly badly done, largely because it is artisanal production by woke hippies. Fusion and tuned, hyper-efficient, LED's would actually make the energy and heat costs of urban farming cheaper than traditional farming. Plants are spectacularly bad at absorbing the suns output (they don't use the majority of the EM radiation the sun outputs) and growing traditionally means you can't do atmospheric tweaking for better production (plants grow better in higher CO2 environments, for example).
Japan has done a few serious attempts at this, with proper scale, hardware, and scientists in charge, instead of a bunch of bored hippies with whatever they could get from their nearby hardware and electronic stores.
No cost figure, but 30 people and the whole facility's maintenance needs, producing just 10k heads a day... Yeah, that's gonna be some expensive lettuce.
This one gives some figures.
The company produces 3,000 heads of lettuce a day on 2,000 m2. The product is very popular among consumers and sold at a price of $3.00 apiece, while lettuce normally sells for $1.00 a head.
Another setup with cost data:
Mirai provides a net impact calculation for lettuce production on 1,300 m2, with a harvest of 10,080 heads a day, on fieldrobotics.org. Based in an invested capital of 7.4 million dollars and a lifespan of 7 years for the production system (51% of the investment), 15 years for other facilities (19%) and 20 years for the building (20%), the investment would earn itself back in just 6 years. The annual operating costs are 3.4 million dollars, of which 26% would be spent on wages, 6% on materials, 26% on energy water and suchlike, 2% on transport and 18% on miscellaneous expenses (information, maintenance) and 22% on depreciation. The most crucial aspect for the successful operation of the farm is having the right people with sufficient training and expertise.
So yeah, this whole thing so far relies purely on the novelty factor and a case where some vegetables can be sold at out of season prices that are many times above normal market prices, especially in more suitable regions than Japan with its very limited farmland. A year's production sold for 1$ per head would barely exceed stated operating costs, and they need more to cover the investment, already exceeding even retail places for cheap conventional lettuce.
Meanwhile, according to data like this, conventional farmers sell lettuce at 30-50 cents per head in optimal locations and conditions, and that's in USA, and then there are countries with cheap labor.
 

Typhonis

Well-known member
One way to treat human waste is heated heavily pressurized water. Get water hot enough and under enough pressure and no organic material is going to survive for very long. You also have the thermal depolymerization process to think about. As for Phosphates....waste not want no. A super huge hive city probably processes the dead for everything of value before the remains are disposed of.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
As i suggested, there would be massive freighters coming to such a planet from wherever the food is going, and their holds would be mostly empty when doing so. Hence, at very little extra cost they could carry some form of fertilizer back when on the return trip.
Assuming it's a container ship (These seem to be rare in sci-fi with most ships going for currently-obsolete internal cargo bays) the ship could simply drop off its containers full of food and load containers of manure immediately with no fuss and no chance of cross-contamination.

This would even be a good way to sterilize the waste, just give the manure containers no radiation shielding (Possibly dehydrate them both to remove extra mass and remove water's surprising radiation shielding properties) and by the time you reach agri-planet space has thoroughly killed everything that isn't a tardigrade.
 

Typhonis

Well-known member
How well do tardigrades withstand outgassing? Because you could also make sure that any gasses in the manure containers get vented into space. Unless you harvest them and sell them as methane, on the side.
 

Emperor Tippy

Merchant of Death
Super Moderator
Staff Member
Founder
Assuming it's a container ship (These seem to be rare in sci-fi with most ships going for currently-obsolete internal cargo bays) the ship could simply drop off its containers full of food and load containers of manure immediately with no fuss and no chance of cross-contamination.

This would even be a good way to sterilize the waste, just give the manure containers no radiation shielding (Possibly dehydrate them both to remove extra mass and remove water's surprising radiation shielding properties) and by the time you reach agri-planet space has thoroughly killed everything that isn't a tardigrade.
While most sci-fi transport ships are shit designs, an internal cargo bay is pretty much the only way to go that makes any sense in most of them.

Any kind of external cargo hauling requires that the cargo and/or cargo containers be able to handle the rigours of transport.

But yes, the lack of standardized (and reasonably sized) cargo containers is another one of those stupid bits of sci-fi.

Although, like much of sci-fi, cargo handling and interstellar transport rarely makes much sense.
 

VicSage

Carpenter, Cobbler, Chirugeon, Dataminer.
Transporting those containers back down to the planet would be the biggest issue there, unless you were to make them go down via space elevator. You could always do a hybrid system, where containers are much like the ones you see here on Earth, and you bring them in a pressurized internal bay that just doesn't have life support added. External containers are a risk in atmospheric transit, so either you'd have them clamped down to the point that it's about as expensive to maintain those systems as a full internal bay, or just put them into an internal bay for atmospheric transport.
 

Emperor Tippy

Merchant of Death
Super Moderator
Staff Member
Founder
Transporting those containers back down to the planet would be the biggest issue there, unless you were to make them go down via space elevator. You could always do a hybrid system, where containers are much like the ones you see here on Earth, and you bring them in a pressurized internal bay that just doesn't have life support added. External containers are a risk in atmospheric transit, so either you'd have them clamped down to the point that it's about as expensive to maintain those systems as a full internal bay, or just put them into an internal bay for atmospheric transport.
If you are actually doing interstellar shipping at any kind of scale then you should have a method of getting things into orbit besides ships. I mean we could make a space fountain today, as could basically anyone who could even contemplate serious space exploration.

Making a vessel that is both large enough to be useful and able to safely, cheaply, and repeatedly go up and down the gravity well with a full cargo load is far more complicated and expensive under most tech paradigms.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Depends the most on tech paradigm. If you have good enough aerospace and nuclear technology, fission or fusion powered lifters with takeoff weight measured in thousands of tons using heated atmosphere for most of lift and a tank of dense liquid for feedstock for orbital maneuvering and deorbit aren't far off even without any kind of crazy antigravity tech. If you have the technology to transport millions of tons between planets or even stars at reasonable prices, there has to be some nice, highly economical propulsion/energy technology around, and once you have that, you can sacrifice some of the aerospace craft's mass budget to overengineer it for longevity and reliability.

At the same time using shuttles to unload solves the problem of how to unload the ships. No reason for them to go back empty...
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
So I had a thought regarding agri-planets. Humans optimizing their genetics might actually justify this.

Simply put, an enormous number of limiters on our bodies are in place to reduce calorie needs. The reason you lose muscle you're not using, and your body isn't fond of putting on more muscle unless you force it via painful methods? Your body doesn't want to spend those calories keeping the muscle alive when it could, instead, store those calories as fat in case a famine comes along. The reason it's so easy to get fat in the first place? Your body is worried you might need that energy later so it's storing it for a rainy day. Over and over, it appears to we have a huge number of limiters in place specifically to save energy in case of famine, which is a great optimization up until around the industrial revolution and doubtless has saved millions of humans over the centuries, but not so much an advanced spacefaring civilization with agri-planets available. Even your brain has limiters to save calories, the brain eats a ridiculous amount already. Chess masters and similar experts who have optimized for brainpower can burn an absolutely absurd 6,000 calories a day while doing nothing but sitting in a chair and thinking hard. Children who are going to school can expend 60% of their daily calorie intake on their brains alone. NASCAR drivers, according to an article I read some years ago, actually burn more calories during a race constantly calculating their driving positions and strategizing than football players burn by physically playing a typical game.

So if you were optimizing human genetics in your spacefaring civilization, the easiest way to crank all your stats to 11 is going to be to remove the calorie-saving options the body uses and remove those limits, pumping up strength, speed, and brainpower at the cost of a massive calorie intake. This in turn leads to average humans who need to eat like a shounen protagonist to keep their bodies going, and coincidentally are as strong and fast as shounen protagonists while also being as smart as master chess players and who learn new skills as easily as school-age children. Such a person, with all the limiters off, might actually need to consume something ridiculous like 20,000-50,000 calories a day. This in turn means ludicrous agriculture requirements to feed your fifteen-hundred-billion people who are each consuming all those calories, which means you need entire planets to grow that much food, growlights just won't do, you need massive planetary outputs of food for this.
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
@Bear Ribs That's an intriguing notion, though I think you may have created something of a monster here.

The problem is that the human body was designed to handle a certain amount of stress in certain ways. I think a sufficiently advanced tech would be able to overcome this. That being said, I can envision some truly horrific consequences to the human body as a result of unrestricted growth of muscle mass.

As to the caloric intake...similar amounts of dedication happen in order to support military endeavors. I could also see heavy refinement of the foods in order to maximize the amount of calory per gram. That way you're not shipping so much to keep your people going.

Downside, you're people are dead in days to a week if the food source goes away.
 

VicSage

Carpenter, Cobbler, Chirugeon, Dataminer.
The addition of cyberware, prosthetics, or implants might mitigate that somewhat. Yes you'd need either a bio-reactor or some kind of electrical socket to power them, but at the same time they would be able to give complete control over some of those aspects, such as releasing small amounts of myostatin inhibitors when you don't want muscle atrophy to occur, or releasing myostatin itself when you know that hard times are about to come through. You could use brain implants to allow for the equivalent of multi-core processing, allowing you to think about two or more separate issues simultaneously, and if you're powering that electrically it is probably less calorie intensive.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
The addition of cyberware, prosthetics, or implants might mitigate that somewhat. Yes you'd need either a bio-reactor or some kind of electrical socket to power them, but at the same time they would be able to give complete control over some of those aspects, such as releasing small amounts of myostatin inhibitors when you don't want muscle atrophy to occur, or releasing myostatin itself when you know that hard times are about to come through. You could use brain implants to allow for the equivalent of multi-core processing, allowing you to think about two or more separate issues simultaneously, and if you're powering that electrically it is probably less calorie intensive.
Might make it worse too though. Would you rather have to plug your cyberlegs into a USB port each night to recharge and risk becoming a parapalegic if you forget oorrrrr.... have your cyberlegs powered by chemical energy extracted from what you eat, at the low cost of getting to eat an extra tub of ice cream every day?
 

Emperor Tippy

Merchant of Death
Super Moderator
Staff Member
Founder
Might make it worse too though. Would you rather have to plug your cyberlegs into a USB port each night to recharge and risk becoming a parapalegic if you forget oorrrrr.... have your cyberlegs powered by chemical energy extracted from what you eat, at the low cost of getting to eat an extra tub of ice cream every day?
What if you replace your Appendix with a micro-Fusion reactor that only requires you consume elements lower on the periodic table than Iron so that the nanites in your stomach can break the food down into base elements for fusion?

Maybe the skin gets replaced by a cybernetic variant that converts EM radiation into energy to power at least the critical systems and trickle charge a capacitor that can kick start the fusion reactor?

You run low on energy so your mind is imaged into the solid state memory storage in your implants and then you just wait until enough EM radiation recharges your batteries to power breaking the atmosphere down into Hydrogen to power the fusion reactor to get you up and running again.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
What if you replace your Appendix with a micro-Fusion reactor that only requires you consume elements lower on the periodic table than Iron so that the nanites in your stomach can break the food down into base elements for fusion?
If you thought your stool was dark before...

Maybe the skin gets replaced by a cybernetic variant that converts EM radiation into energy to power at least the critical systems and trickle charge a capacitor that can kick start the fusion reactor?You run low on energy so your mind is imaged into the solid state memory storage in your implants and then you just wait until enough EM radiation recharges your batteries to power breaking the atmosphere down into Hydrogen to power the fusion reactor to get you up and running again.
Sounds pretty cool actually. But honestly, the point of the mental exercise was to see if I could come up with a justification for agri-worlds, which I was able to do via massive caloric needs from genetic engineering. Adding "But what if they had cyber reactors didn't need food?" kind of misses the point.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top