CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
Say, would it be illegal to force them into asylums if they resist?
The Homeless; is it their own fault?
- Thread starter Terthna
- Start date
Say, would it be illegal to force them into asylums if they resist?
Shipmaster Sane
You have been weighed
You really just want to bring this up at every opportunity, huh?
Nobody cares about, nor has any reason to believe in, your experiences. They mean absolutely nothing.
It would depend on the specifics of their condition and regional mental health laws, I suspect.
There are also multiple kinds of homelessness. For example, the permanent homeless are generally the mentally ill or addicted, and if you manage to address their issues you can oftentimes get them back on their feet... the problem being that you need to proactively work with them over time to *keep* them on their feet because it is very easy for them to fall back down.
Then you have the transient homeless. Some of the stories I could tell...
Take, for example, one woman I've worked with. No names. She is actually not on any sort of drugs, has a fairly solid resume for property management work. She was headhunted by an apartment complex here in Scottsdale on the premise of move into the complex, we'll employ you to run property management at said complex and as part of your compensation comp you the cost (2500 a month, high end luxury apartment complex).
So she signed on the dotted line, left her old position, moved into the new complex... but no sooner was the ink dry on the contract than the complex decided to instead hire a 3rd party property management company and terminated her employment contract... but they refused to let her out of the rental contract on the apartment.
So now she's unemployed. OK, find another job... oh wait, non-compete clause in her contract which here in AZ is enforceable. Plus the people who run that complex? One of the biggest players in the field here in the state. So now she's out of work, can't get a new job in the field, can't get out of her rental contract for at least a year... then they decided that for people in the one-bedroom rental units that they'd no longer get free utilities, so add in a utility bill that we have since discovered had part of the common utilities folded into it (so she was paying part of the electric bill for the parking lot lights and such)... Needless to say, it drove her to bankruptcy, and she wound up homeless for a period.
Luckily in this case SVdP's legal aid group was able to successfully sue the management company, get her out of the lease, recover the money she'd been ripped off of, and forced them to void the non-compete. She was able to secure a new property-management position with that company's biggest competitor and is now back on her feet.
So was it her fault that she spent a few months homeless? I'd say no, not at all. According to what I heard the whole reason they pulled that shit on her in the first place was that initial sales in that new complex were too soft and the executives had egg on their face, so they decided to pull a fast one so they'd have higher occupancy numbers for when the higher ups checked the books. So in order for an executive to secure their personal bonus, they tried to completely ruin a woman.
Then you have the transient homeless. Some of the stories I could tell...
Take, for example, one woman I've worked with. No names. She is actually not on any sort of drugs, has a fairly solid resume for property management work. She was headhunted by an apartment complex here in Scottsdale on the premise of move into the complex, we'll employ you to run property management at said complex and as part of your compensation comp you the cost (2500 a month, high end luxury apartment complex).
So she signed on the dotted line, left her old position, moved into the new complex... but no sooner was the ink dry on the contract than the complex decided to instead hire a 3rd party property management company and terminated her employment contract... but they refused to let her out of the rental contract on the apartment.
So now she's unemployed. OK, find another job... oh wait, non-compete clause in her contract which here in AZ is enforceable. Plus the people who run that complex? One of the biggest players in the field here in the state. So now she's out of work, can't get a new job in the field, can't get out of her rental contract for at least a year... then they decided that for people in the one-bedroom rental units that they'd no longer get free utilities, so add in a utility bill that we have since discovered had part of the common utilities folded into it (so she was paying part of the electric bill for the parking lot lights and such)... Needless to say, it drove her to bankruptcy, and she wound up homeless for a period.
Luckily in this case SVdP's legal aid group was able to successfully sue the management company, get her out of the lease, recover the money she'd been ripped off of, and forced them to void the non-compete. She was able to secure a new property-management position with that company's biggest competitor and is now back on her feet.
So was it her fault that she spent a few months homeless? I'd say no, not at all. According to what I heard the whole reason they pulled that shit on her in the first place was that initial sales in that new complex were too soft and the executives had egg on their face, so they decided to pull a fast one so they'd have higher occupancy numbers for when the higher ups checked the books. So in order for an executive to secure their personal bonus, they tried to completely ruin a woman.
Fleiur
Well-known member
If you decide not to change, it's still a choice you made. Unless, you are mentally ill and you don't have self-awareness.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
That's the kind of personal tragedy that is so very infuriating. And it also shows a (more dramatic than most would be able to benefit from) example of how people who haven't wrecked their own lives, don't crash out long-term, they get back up and get moving again.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
How do you know if you are mentally ill or un-self aware? To the insane, they themselves are pretty sane, it’s everybody else who’s insane
Fleiur
Well-known member
Indeed, but I've also seen members of the first group pull out of the spiral when given the right support. Get them on the needed medication, and keeping them on it, and many of them become just as productive as any other member of society.
Get them detoxed and a proper support group to help keep them from spiraling back down, and they recover as well. It's never easy, there are never any simple 'silver bullet' answers beyond those so basic as to be useless as a policy prescription. Every person is unique, every person has their own needs.
One of the great virtues of the Society of St Vincent de Paul is that unlike many other groups we meet the homeless and poor on their own terms, we come to them, we don't force them to come begging to us. When our parish conference gets a call on our help line, we don't make them come to the parish office to fill out paperwork and be treated as a number, we arrange a home visit where two of our Vincentians will go to *them*, where they are at, be it on the street, at home, or wherever.
And we try to actually build a relationship with them, get to know *them* as people, not numbers. Try to find out where they are at, and find ways where we can help them get to where they want to be.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
That lines up quite well with what I saw and experienced.
The biggest single thing I was struggling with, that I let motivate my bad decisions, was broken relationships. It didn't seem like anybody cared about or was invested in me beyond being an obligation, and I absolutely hated that.
It's part of why I see welfare as causing more problems than it solves; a 'system' cannot care about you. Only people can care about people, and a bureaucratic institution can't help with the more profound struggles that people have. Individuals in the bureaucratic organization might, but that's the exception, not the rule.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
That's not really an issue with welfare though; and it's not one you can fix by getting rid of it.
This, this right here is the entire reason she ended up homeless. While what the corporation did to her was sleezy, the fact non-competes are enforceable in AZ is immoral and a problem of state law that should be addressed and directly caused all the rest of her problems.
Seriously, I find very few things as immoral as non-compete clauses.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Don't forget women forcibly addicted to drugs by pimps as part of sex trafficking cartels, who are then forced into prostitution and making pornography.
In general, though, I detest treating humans as broad classes about which sweeping generalisations can be made.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
Yes, it is an issue with welfare, because welfare encourages bad decisions, and mitigates the consequences of them. And that's before you get into the monetary cost that goes into it, and the political corruption with vote-buying.
To be clear, I differentiate programs that support disabled people, from welfare in general. There are arguments to be made for assisting disabled people, but a significant part of why able-bodied people have a hard time getting a job, is because ruinous taxation and regulation shackle economic activity and growth.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
None of that has anything to do with making people care about each other, which is what you were talking about in the post I replied to:
D
Deleted member
Guest
My preferred solution is to make the barriers of entry into the workforce extremely low so that people are incentivised to work, and then all social aid is predicated on having a job. So you can be a casual day labourer and make ends-meet, but you have to work. The way you do this is by creating social services that you have to pay for, but at intentionally wildly subsidized prices. You allow companies to externalise costs of using people instead of automation to the government so that people are competitive for all tasks, then you get your population to full employment.
Non competes are just fine, shitty contracts are (again) a massive problem. If her contract was done correctly then at a minimum her being fired should have allowed her to void the lease without penalty. Although if a business actually wants a non-compete in the contract, then it should include compensation for the full term of the non compete (i.e. they pay you to not work for the competition); if they aren't willing to negotiate it then tell them thanks but no thanks and don't sign the contract.
Seriously, we need a mandatory class junior year in Highschool called Real Life 101 or something. Complete with examples of good and bad contracts, explanations of what credit cards actually are, etc.
A great many people end up in shitty situations because they signed shitty contracts without bothering to read them, without understanding the terms, and without even attempting to negotiate them.
You would be amazed how many lawyers are surprised when you (their client) actually reads the contracts/documents that they prepared before signing them.