Star Trek The General Star Trek Thread - From TOS to Corporate Schenanigans

Lord Sovereign

Well-known member
You know, having recently watched some DS9 clips concerning the Ferengi, is it bad that I find them...frankly absurd? I know they were made as a really hamfisted critique of capitalism, and Quark is entertaining, but their obsession with profit goes beyond even self preservation. That a civilisation obsessed with the exchange of goods and trade doesn't have a fuckhuge navy or at least a powerful merchant marine (and the proud naval traditions to go with it) is preposterous.

They should have been more like the Dutch or the Venetians in space than Roddenberry's misunderstandings of the posh word for bartering.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
You know, having recently watched some DS9 clips concerning the Ferengi, is it bad that I find them...frankly absurd? I know they were made as a really hamfisted critique of capitalism, and Quark is entertaining, but their obsession with profit goes beyond even self preservation. That a civilisation obsessed with the exchange of goods and trade doesn't have a fuckhuge navy or at least a powerful merchant marine (and the proud naval traditions to go with it) is preposterous.

They should have been more like the Dutch or the Venetians in space than Roddenberry's misunderstandings of the posh word for bartering.
True, but Star Trek understanding even basic economics is too much to ask for. It's left-wing utopian fiction. That's okay, and although I disagree with its premises, I'm more than willing to accept a fictional universe on its own terms if it sticks to its own rules. (Which is why modern Trek, generally, fails so utterly.)

If we demand that Trek be realistic, the result is that it must cease to be Trek, and become a very different kind of beast altogether.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
You know, having recently watched some DS9 clips concerning the Ferengi, is it bad that I find them...frankly absurd? I know they were made as a really hamfisted critique of capitalism, and Quark is entertaining, but their obsession with profit goes beyond even self preservation. That a civilisation obsessed with the exchange of goods and trade doesn't have a fuckhuge navy or at least a powerful merchant marine (and the proud naval traditions to go with it) is preposterous.

They should have been more like the Dutch or the Venetians in space than Roddenberry's misunderstandings of the posh word for bartering.

Yeah, would've been fun to have the Ferengi Alliance as Space Carthage (or at least, Space Phoenicia). Maybe even as a society of freewheeling anarcho-capitalists who've privatized everything and detest regulatory bodies of all stripes, if Roddenberry had more interest in "niche" ideologies that may very well be the norm for a hyper-mercantile species like the Ferengi. :unsure:

Personally, I find the Muuns from Star Wars to be a somewhat more "logical" (if rather humorless) take on a species with an instinctive knack for economics and commerce. That is, a shrewd and calculating race of money-makers whose members are over-represented in the business world of the Galaxy, but without the giggly "Profit, profit, profit!" delusions and obsession with short-term "financial gratification" taking up their every waking moment of every day of the year.
 
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Lord Sovereign

Well-known member
If we demand that Trek be realistic, the result is that it must cease to be Trek, and become a very different kind of beast altogether.

Quite right, but weirdly I think my take on what the Ferengi should have been would have made for a far greater antithesis (aside from the good old Romulans) to the Federation than what we got.

Ideologically speaking a mercantile empire, off exploring and conquering its section of the Alpha Quadrant, is about as far from the Federation as you can get. And as a society that would have had to deal with piracy and unfriendly neighbours, their merchantmen and exploration vessels, not even proper warships, would be armed to the teeth whilst the Ferengi Navy is blooded and experienced (heavily derived from the fleets of the Venetians and Dutch).

They'd be opposites, struggling to make sense of each other, but neither is evil.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Quite right, but weirdly I think my take on what the Ferengi should have been would have made for a far greater antithesis (aside from the good old Romulans) to the Federation than what we got.

Ideologically speaking a mercantile empire, off exploring and conquering its section of the Alpha Quadrant, is about as far from the Federation as you can get. And as a society that would have had to deal with piracy and unfriendly neighbours, their merchantmen and exploration vessels, not even proper warships, would be armed to the teeth whilst the Ferengi Navy is blooded and experienced (heavily derived from the fleets of the Venetians and Dutch).

They'd be opposites, struggling to make sense of each other, but neither is evil.

A solid alternative to canon Ferengi, to be sure, though depending on how "international" their economic reach is, I'd also throw in Muun economic finesse (read: cool self-restraint and enough sense to know your life is worth more than a few bars of Latinum) and overrepresentation among the Fortune 500 of the Alpha Quadrant. Maybe lots of anarcho-capitalist trading posts and "free zones" doting the Ferengi frontier, as well, though you certainly don't have to call it that. :)
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
Quite right, but weirdly I think my take on what the Ferengi should have been would have made for a far greater antithesis (aside from the good old Romulans) to the Federation than what we got.

Ideologically speaking a mercantile empire, off exploring and conquering its section of the Alpha Quadrant, is about as far from the Federation as you can get. And as a society that would have had to deal with piracy and unfriendly neighbours, their merchantmen and exploration vessels, not even proper warships, would be armed to the teeth whilst the Ferengi Navy is blooded and experienced (heavily derived from the fleets of the Venetians and Dutch).

They'd be opposites, struggling to make sense of each other, but neither is evil.
I would have liked to have seen that contrast.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
I would have liked to have seen that contrast.

So would I, now that @Lord Sovereign brings it up. :unsure:

All in all, I suppose his take on this makes the Ferengi more similar to the CIS and Outer Rim megacorps from Star Wars, seeing as the Trade Federation and its fellow conglomerates employ private armies and the like to ward off pirates, guard their holdings, and (of course) fight a frickin' intergalactic war with a professional, state-sponsored force raised by the Galactic Republic. It'd be much the same for ATL Ferengi, I imagine, sans the commonplace AI and with more of a "love-hate-commerce" relationship with the Alliance's neighbors (as opposed to outright war).
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
So would I, now that @Lord Sovereign brings it up. :unsure:

All in all, I suppose his take on this makes the Ferengi more similar to the CIS and Outer Rim megacorps from Star Wars, seeing as the Trade Federation and its fellow conglomerates employ private armies and the like to ward off pirates, guard their holdings, and (of course) fight a frickin' intergalactic war with a professional, state-sponsored force raised by the Galactic Republic. It'd be much the same for ATL Ferengi, I imagine, sans the commonplace AI and with more of a "love-hate-commerce" relationship with the Alliance's neighbors (as opposed to outright war).
I'm imagining something closer to the Empire of Manticore from David Weber's Honorverse series. It likely wouldn't be a monarchy of any sort, but the Star Empire of Manticore definitely ran on free trade, access to many different ports and capitalism.

Hmm... what would the foundational government of our Ferengi Merchantdom look like?
 

Lord Sovereign

Well-known member
Maybe lots of anarcho-capitalist trading posts and "free zones" doting the Ferengi frontier, as well, though you certainly don't have to call it that. :)

My boy.

Ferengi Port Royal.

I'm down for this.

So would I, now that @Lord Sovereign brings it up. :unsure:

All in all, I suppose his take on this makes the Ferengi more similar to the CIS and Outer Rim megacorps from Star Wars, seeing as the Trade Federation and its fellow conglomerates employ private armies and the like to ward off pirates, guard their holdings, and (of course) fight a frickin' intergalactic war with a professional, state-sponsored force raised by the Galactic Republic. It'd be much the same for ATL Ferengi, I imagine, sans the commonplace AI and with more of a "love-hate-commerce" relationship with the Alliance's neighbors (as opposed to outright war).

Not entirely. Whilst these Ferengi would have huge megacorps and the like, they'd still be chartered by the Ferengi government. Essentially, instead of the Trade Federation, they'd have "East India" companies that maintain potent defence forces of their own (likely butting heads with the Federation) but don't hold a candle to the actual Ferengi Navy.

Indeed, you could have an "oh shit" moment for Star Fleet when they realise these powerful ships they've had to fight are merchantmen belonging to a company, and the main Ferengi battle fleet is now on its way.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Sorry for the digression, but is it weird that I'm envisioning San Hill and the Grand Nagus sitting down to negotiate possible trade or business between the IGBC and Ferengi Alliance? Because frankly, I'm surprised more crossover fics with SW haven't featured much Ferengi-Muun interaction (or even Ferengi-CIS interaction, really)... despite the fact that'd be occurring in the background, on more than one or two occasions.

Heck, even Mak Plain in Quark's bar would make an interesting scene, seeing as Quark's curiosity about the Muuns and their incredible business success would get the better of him, whereas Plain tries to keep a straight face when exchanging pleasantries with "another one of those silly plutomaniacs with the oversized ears, sharp teeth, and stupefying obsession with money above all else." Or, you know, something like that. :p
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik

Oh huh... they have made three new Star Treks already.

Oh huh... and they actually wanna bother making a fourth one.

Whoa... its gone through four different Writer-Directors.

Quentin Tarantino... SJ Clarkson... Noah Hawley... Matt Shakman and now maybe Cate Shortland.

 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
You know, having recently watched some DS9 clips concerning the Ferengi, is it bad that I find them...frankly absurd? I know they were made as a really hamfisted critique of capitalism, and Quark is entertaining, but their obsession with profit goes beyond even self preservation. That a civilisation obsessed with the exchange of goods and trade doesn't have a fuckhuge navy or at least a powerful merchant marine (and the proud naval traditions to go with it) is preposterous.

They should have been more like the Dutch or the Venetians in space than Roddenberry's misunderstandings of the posh word for bartering.
You know how Klingons are obsessed with honor and dying a good death the get into Stovakor. It is the same with the Ferengi. Only with money. Poverty is to a Ferengi what Grethor is the a Klingon.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
I did like the original Ferengi a bit more, when they tooled around in massive battleships called "Marauders" with enough weaponry to fight a Galaxy class. That name certainly suggests they began with the plans of being some kind of Merchant/Pirate hybrids (The first two of them we saw immediately dishing out the pain on Worf with those energy whips suggests it as well, granted everybody got to beat up Worf in those days).
 

Typhonis

Well-known member
In the Med...the difference between a pirate and a merchant was not very clear. One port the ship could be a trader, in the next Piracy Ho!

"Look Hew-mon. There is something you need to know about my species that has apparently escaped your grasp. Not hard given you lack four lobes. But in a nutshell...we Ferengi do not see any difference between business, war, politics, and interpersonal relationships. All abide by the same rules, after all, so why separate them?"
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
image0.jpg
 

bintananth

behind a desk
Star Trek could really use XO's like Senior Lieutanant Kirika from my story Tintagel.

She looks a pre-teen but is actually about the same age as the human captain she's extending a hand of friendship to while knowing that his ship, despite being several thousand times more massive than hers, has absolutetly zero chance of stopping her angry cousin because her passive shields just broke their reactors.
 

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