Fallout The Eagle And The Bear [Fallout AU]

[TyrantTriumphant]

Even if one were to accept President Kimball's rather skewed interpretation of the E-USA's cultural policies, the question of how exactally the NCR is supposed to right these wrongs, or if they even can, naturally arises.

The last bit of major expansion the Enclave did was what, thirty years ago? So at this point anyone who could have revived the local pre-Enclave cultures are either dead or too old.

This speech is also likely to cause divisions in the NCR government as to what their war goals and post-war goals should be. I suspect the moderates and southerners will push for forcing the Enclave to recognize the NCR's independence, which is both moral and sensible, if difficult to achieve in practice.

The northern radicals however will be left at an impasse. They will be faced with the choice of either abandoning their beliefs or doubling down on them. For those who choose to double down in their hate of the Enclave, Arroyism is the next natural step.

The problem with that is that the Enclave's assimilation of conquered wastelanders makes achieving the main Arroyist goal, that is the total destruction of old America, require methods that are both utterly immoral and probably impossible to carry out. Either a hideously brutal and long-term occupation of former Enclave territories with the aim of stamping out American culture or total genocide of the population.

And I'm sure that the NCR moderates are smart enough to realize the implications of Arroyism and how insane it would be in practice.

The NCR is definitely in for some nasty political infighting.

 

[DarthAwesome]

Even if one were to accept President Kimball's rather skewed interpretation of the E-USA's cultural policies, the question of how exactally the NCR is supposed to right these wrongs, or if they even can, naturally arises.

The last bit of major expansion the Enclave did was what, thirty years ago? So at this point anyone who could have revived the local pre-Enclave cultures are either dead or too old.

This speech is also likely to cause divisions in the NCR government as to what their war goals and post-war goals should be. I suspect the moderates and southerners will push for forcing the Enclave to recognize the NCR's independence, which is both moral and sensible, if difficult to achieve in practice.

The northern radicals however will be left at an impasse. They will be faced with the choice of either abandoning their beliefs or doubling down on them. For those who choose to double down in their hate of the Enclave, Arroyism is the next natural step.

The problem with that is that the Enclave's assimilation of conquered wastelanders makes achieving the main Arroyist goal, that is the total destruction of old America, require methods that are both utterly immoral and probably impossible to carry out. Either a hideously brutal and long-term occupation of former Enclave territories with the aim of stamping out American culture or total genocide of the population.

And I'm sure that the NCR moderates are smart enough to realize the implications of Arroyism and how insane it would be in practice.

The NCR is definitely in for some nasty political infighting.

That's not political infighting. That's a civil war in the making. Only thing stopping it is the ongoing war. And Russia can tell you that doesn't matter.

 

[SuperHeavy]

Just caught up and I am liking these combat scenes. The US is using airpower afforded by their investments in stealth technology and the NCR is finding out orbital assets are a necessity in modern warfare. Still I agree with others the the US is going to need to better integrate their foreign troops.

 

[Crow gotta eat]

I mean we did already get a tribal who was fighting in the NCR army POV about the E-USA doing what was described. And the E-USA definitely did wipe out tribes quite brutally treating them like general Fallout Raiders only after one attack. But others were assimilated peacefully, though from said NCR tribal's POV it was selling out, especially by their leaders, but in a way it could also be a better way of preserving their people's traditions, even if they aren't considered a separate "people" any more than a more unique local American small cultural group, that probably did have a quite a few of their traditions change with being assimilated.

As to what is a tribe, it really depends on the tribe's structure and traditions and what have you. As a "tribe" could be anywhere from a small town to a small city and surrounding settlements. "Chief" or whatever title you have can easily transition to be a mayor or whatever, especially if it was generally recognized as a elected position, and not a monarchical title. So many tribes could and would have probably been considered "civilized" by the E-USA, as lines get real blurry what constitutes a small tribe and an independent small settlement if you really start thinking about it.

And "tribes" in Fallout don't even need to wear things we recognize as "tribal" wear. The New Canaanites were generally recognized as a tribe, but generally wore something similar to "civilized". Heck, the New Vegas families were all tribes, or otherwise used to be tribes, including the Kings.

So all in all, it is probably a matter of perspective whether or not the NCR reservation system is better or not. It preserves a cultural uniqueness but it probably feels like being trapped by those forced onto them through forced treaties and/or outright conflict with the NCR. But to refugees like the NCR soldier I talked about, there is a bit of feeling like they managed to keep their people somewhat intact and gratitude by being given land by a people who didn't necessarily have to give it to them. At the same time, the NCR reservation system will probably not be too great at dealing with the tribals, be it helping them with their issues or ensuring they aren't mistreated.

To those forcibly assimilated by the E-USA, there are probably feelings of resentment, but to those who willingly signed on, there are probably less so. And either way after the assimilation, be it forced through hostilities or willingly absorbed by diplomacy, they are officially an equal US citizen whose community does not require to jump through any extra hoops to do something anymore than any other US community has to.

 

[High Lord Rokland]

I view the tribes of Fallout like I view the BOS. Factions that came about due to the Great War resetting things that then refused to adapt when better organized factions raised up and started expanding.
The Boomers and Brotherhood are cargo cults, the Khans are just raiders and the Three Families are larping at being civilized. Each could have been more.
The Boomers had the weapons and knowledge to seize Vegas and the Dam well before the NCR was even founded.

The BOS totally gave up on the rest of Humanity to hoard tech and then do nothing with it. Total lack of vision and direction.

The Khans were some of the first organized Raiders, they could have built a kingdom anywhere on the West Coast, but no. It is easier to raid towns and demand tribute. They literally could have been the Legion before the Legion was a thing.

The Three Families could have started up Houses racket before House did. Hell, New Reno did it decades before House woke up.

 

[Navarro]

I mean we did already get a tribal who was fighting in the NCR army POV about the E-USA doing what was described. And the E-USA definitely did wipe out tribes quite brutally treating them like general Fallout Raiders only after one attack. But others were assimilated peacefully, though from said NCR tribal's POV it was selling out, especially by their leaders, but in a way it could also be a better way of preserving their people's traditions, even if they aren't considered a separate "people" any more than a more unique local American small cultural group, that probably did have a quite a few of their traditions change with being assimilated.

Yeah, a lot of it is the same factors that drove many other wasteland elites into joining up with E-US. They're offering reliable power, clean water, air conditioning. They have a big, powerful army that outclasses pretty much anything else in the wasteland and they've made noises about how they're not afraid to use it. They're offering security and tying you into their trade network which sources tons of new advanced tech.

And of course once that happens they start adopting elements of E-US culture the same way barbarians adopted Roman culture - and much more easily as pretty much all cultures in old US territory derive from a common root, i.e. the pre-War US, not that far back, and we have the innovations of printing, TV and radio to spread it as well, and ofc, there's pressure for people to prove that they're "civilised" by adopting the high-status E-US cultural markers and rejecting their old ones.

The result is you see a lot of cultural homogenisation very fast, with cultural boundaries largely following pre-War lines (i.e. distinct "Canadian" culture still exists, though it's becoming more of a regional identity than a national one, much like Southern v. Northern US, and of course the Caribbean isles are somewhat more divergent).

Elements of wasteland cultures definitely still survive though, even with there not really being a wasteland any more!

As to what is a tribe, it really depends on the tribe's structure and traditions and what have you. As a "tribe" could be anywhere from a small town to a small city and surrounding settlements. "Chief" or whatever title you have can easily transition to be a mayor or whatever, especially if it was generally recognized as a elected position, and not a monarchical title. So many tribes could and would have probably been considered "civilized" by the E-USA, as lines get real blurry what constitutes a small tribe and an independent small settlement if you really start thinking about it.

[/QUOTE]

Yes, especially in the context of Fallout. Some people even argue that groups like the BOS and Enclave represent tribes, along with basically all non-NCR factions (I'd say it's a "NCR is the real protagonist of Fallout" mindset). But in general I'd agree that the line between tribal, raider and settler is very blurred. A particularly xenophobic, violent tribe looks so close to a raider gang as makes no difference - a group of agricultural settlers who've lost a lot of tech can look very much like a particularly sophisticated tribe.

And "tribes" in Fallout don't even need to wear things we recognize as "tribal" wear. The New Canaanites were generally recognized as a tribe, but generally wore something similar to "civilized". Heck, the New Vegas families were all tribes, or otherwise used to be tribes, including the Kings.

E-USA defines tribal largely by tech level and how much they resemble pre-War American culture. The Boomers and New Canaanites in FNV, they'd immediately recognise as just your average wastelanders (Boomers would get extra cachet for being second-gen former Vault Dwellers). People like the Dead Horses or Sorrows in Honest Hearts, or a group like Old Arroyo? Do Not Pass Go, send 'em straight to the residential schools and vocational training centres to chew them up and spit out hardworking taxpaying US citizens. The Khans, Vipers, Jackals? Obviously raiders, light 'em up and send adult survivors to penal colonies to serve their (many decades long) sentences (whaddya think they grabbed Iceland, Jan Mayen, Svalbard, Bermuda and Greenland for? It wasn't just naval bases, resources, and early-warning radars), kids get adopted out across US territory .

So all in all, it is probably a matter of perspective whether or not the NCR reservation system is better or not. It preserves a cultural uniqueness but it probably feels like being trapped by those forced onto them through forced treaties and/or outright conflict with the NCR. But to refugees like the NCR soldier I talked about, there is a bit of feeling like they managed to keep their people somewhat intact and gratitude by being given land by a people who didn't necessarily have to give it to them. At the same time, the NCR reservation system will probably not be too great at dealing with the tribals, be it helping them with their issues or ensuring they aren't mistreated.

You'll see an NCR rez fairly soon - one of the worse off ones on account of who it holds, but it's a reasonable look at the system.

 

[Navarro]

Official Federalist Republican Party logo since the Autumn era, used in campaign material and internal documents, also printed on election ballots:

 

[DarthAwesome]

Official Federalist Republican Party logo since the Autumn era, used in campaign material and printed on election ballots:

I can feel the sheer amount of FREEDOM radiating from this logo. It makes me want to invade liberate a third world nation to take its oil free its citizens from tyranny.

 

[Navarro]

Sadly not an actual update but writers' block and exam revision is a bitch. Still, hope you can enjoy!

Map found on page 25 of the American Geographic Society's Young Explorer's World Atlas (2329 edition), a popular middle school textbook in Anerican territory, labelled "The United States and Surrounding Nations". It follows the usual protocol used in United States territory for the disputed areas occupied by governments hostile to the United States.

A partial list of world flags found on Page 55 of the Young Explorer's World Atlas (2329 Edition). Areas de jure belonging to the United States government but not (yet, official sources are eager to add) formally under its control are, per convention, not displayed.

 

[dalek2150]

"Eighth French Republic" is a lol to me.

No way that France in the Fallout timeline is stable enough to only have 5 more republics in 300 years from present day.

 

[AspblastUSA]

"Eighth French Republic" is a lol to me.

No way that France in the Fallout timeline is stable enough to only have 5 more republics in 300 years from present day.

That's only assuming they kept up the empire/republic cycle. It's entirely possible there's been many competing French monarchies/empires eating up the years.

 

[Crow gotta eat]

That's only assuming they kept up the empire/republic cycle. It's entirely possible there's been many competing French monarchies/empires eating up the years.

Or that they didn't have multiple factions claiming the same exact title and thus having civil wars over who was the "true" French government.

 

[Navarro]

Ch. 29 pushing on, but battle scenes going slow. Maybe the end of term will speed me up, IDK. Anyway, have this:

==*==

The last data Nate had looked at, a week ago, indicated that the traditional Federalist heartlands - the South, the Caribbean, and New England - were solid blue, but the mid-Atlantic and Steel Belt looked a greenish-yellow. The Appalachians were even brighter yellow - the Free States movement had been defunct for two hundred years, not being nearly as prepared for atomic war as they’d believed, but the memory of them lingered - their descendants thankfully far less radical than their pre-War ancestors, who'd been borderline anarchists. Thank heavens for that, he mused.

The big wild cards were the newly reintegrated areas - Texas and Oklahoma - which remained to be seen whether they’d be in a state to hold an election by November, but if so it was a tossup in which camp they’d end up. Senator Bush, “representing” Texas as an appointee, had expressed an intent to campaign for his seat when it came up - he may lose the party a winnable seat, but the man was from an old pre-War political dynasty and viewed a position in government as practically his birthright. That was a lot of the appointee Senators, and though Autumn's expansion of reintegrated territory had thinned their ranks and the accession of new States had diluted their power, there were still far too many of them for Nate's liking. Polling at least showed the traditional supporters of the Federalist Party - the military, urban big business, the suburban middle class, and rural family farmers - remained solidly wedded to the party, along with the religious vote.

 

[Crow gotta eat]

And we see some the effects of reintegrating Texas and Oklahoma, the E-USA slowly becoming more democratic at the top level, as it will become presumably more so if it actually wins this war completely and gets all territory back, as the appointed Senators and Representatives will be forced to run for their seats.

 

[Navarro]

Ch. 29 snippet:

==*==

“You don’t understand; this is the problem with democratic societies. They can’t sustain a war effort for so long, and can’t prosecute the measures they’d need to end it quickly and cleanly. Public opinion prevents it. Two hundred years ago, if the United States had launched an atomic strike on China immediately, before the Stealth Fleet had even been conceived of, America would have survived. But the men in the White House and the Pentagon tried to keep it conventional, tried to keep it civilised, and what was the result? Ten years of senseless, bloody fighting; from Anchorage to Africa, across Central Asia and Indonesia, in orbit and on the moon. A million Americans died along with twelve million Russians, fighting so bravely to keep the Chinese from world domination - and it all ended in nuclear fire anyway. I won’t see that happen again. I won’t see the last two centuries of human progress laid waste - as they will if this war drags on much longer.”

 

[Ihopethisworks]

You don’t understand; this is the problem with democratic societies

Whoever is saying this here is really wrong. First, Britain and France in WWI fought a taxing total war of attrition, as did Britain and the US in WW2. Britain in 1940 is as by then there was clear path to victory. Second, by the end of the Sino-American War Pre-War America was a fascist totalitarian dictatorship. It hadn’t been a democracy for a long time when the bombs dropped.

 

[Tel Janin Aman]

Whoever is saying this here is really wrong. First, Britain and France in WWI fought a taxing total war of attrition, as did Britain and the US in WW2. Britain in 1940 is as by then there was clear path to victory. Second, by the end of the Sino-American War Pre-War America was a fascist totalitarian dictatorship. It hadn’t been a democracy for a long time when the bombs dropped.

Right or wrong doesn't matter in this case, whoever is saying it clearly believes it and is willing to act on that belief.

 

[Bacle]

I'm getting a feeling House is getting tired of the bullshit from both sides, and may want to do something...drastic to force the fighting to cease.

There are enough RobCo products on both sides that if House wanted to force both to stand down, he might be able to.

 

[Crow gotta eat]

I'm getting a feeling House is getting tired of the bullshit from both sides, and may want to do something...drastic to force the fighting to cease.

There are enough RobCo products on both sides that if House wanted to force both to stand down, he might be able to.

Highly doubt that last part, as I doubt the E-USA would have anything in their military or manufacturing machines/computers that be shut down by anyone but them. Be it automation or military robots, I doubt the E-USA has anything that can be shut down easily by anyone but them.

Especially since Mr. House being an official NCR citizen isn't exactly a secret. The E-USA would immediately make sure any technology they are using can't just be shut down from any sudden broadcast coming from the NCR's direction once they discovered that.

 

[DarthAwesome]

Thirdly, I highly doubt the E-USA is using any Rob-Co equipment, as they have already been shown to have progressed past it technologically.