Tanks and other Armoured Vehicles Image thread.

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
to the point that I'm surprised that the US military hadn't pulled a coup yet.
Because the US military's basis has never been retarded strongman halfwit geopolitics, even when that was the federal government's official foreign policy position. Its culture has been dictated by being a volunteer core expected to deal with drafted masses for the public good. Everything about how it functions is downstream from civilians, to the point even the vicious corruption is entirely downstream from civilian interests.

Of course they aren't going to pull a coup about budget problems when it's not actually a problem for the country. Anyone who signs up either doesn't know any better and is basically fucked outside it, knows perfectly well they could get better pay in the private sector but wants to do the job properly which means following the downstream-from-civilians structure, or is a politician in all but name who's personally involved in the budget shenanigans happening to begin with because cost overruns are an excellent way to launder bribes.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Because the US military's basis has never been retarded strongman halfwit geopolitics, even when that was the federal government's official foreign policy position. Its culture has been dictated by being a volunteer core expected to deal with drafted masses for the public good. Everything about how it functions is downstream from civilians, to the point even the vicious corruption is entirely downstream from civilian interests.

Of course they aren't going to pull a coup about budget problems when it's not actually a problem for the country. Anyone who signs up either doesn't know any better and is basically fucked outside it, knows perfectly well they could get better pay in the private sector but wants to do the job properly which means following the downstream-from-civilians structure, or is a politician in all but name who's personally involved in the budget shenanigans happening to begin with because cost overruns are an excellent way to launder bribes.
I take offense.
I do my job because I enjoy it and still find ways to not follow rules
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Because the US military's basis has never been retarded strongman halfwit geopolitics, even when that was the federal government's official foreign policy position. Its culture has been dictated by being a volunteer core expected to deal with drafted masses for the public good. Everything about how it functions is downstream from civilians, to the point even the vicious corruption is entirely downstream from civilian interests.

Of course they aren't going to pull a coup about budget problems when it's not actually a problem for the country. Anyone who signs up either doesn't know any better and is basically fucked outside it, knows perfectly well they could get better pay in the private sector but wants to do the job properly which means following the downstream-from-civilians structure, or is a politician in all but name who's personally involved in the budget shenanigans happening to begin with because cost overruns are an excellent way to launder bribes.
... that's very sterilized on the history between the US military (especially the Navy) and Congress. The real history is... well... a lot less 'Congress doing good and the military isn't responsible with money' and more 'Congress screwing over the military without lube and the military literally had to pick and choose everything including who to retain'. Or have you forgotten shit like the Mk14 torpedo charlie foxtrot or the Jeffersonian Mosquito boats (that more often killed themselves than the enemy)?

Or the fact that out of every project within the military, only the B17 was on time and under budget?

Cost overruns happen because, surprise, things on paper usually don't work out in reality and the kinks have to be worked out. Some kinks are able to be ironed out relatively quickly, others not so much.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Closest thing would be the U.S. Army's M728 Combat Engineer Vehicle with its M135 165mm demolition gun. It's pretty old and based on an M60 chassis rather than the modern Abrams, but it is still in service for at least a couple more years. There's also a British counterpart, also with a 165mm snub barrel demolition gun, on a Centurion chassis.

Despite wide consensus from combat engineers that they need a frontline CEV on the more mobile Abrams chassis, the Army cancelled the planned replacement, claiming that it can't afford to field such specialized vehicles any more.

Can't they just copy the USMC?

Granted, that thing uses rockets instead of a demolition gun, but...
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
But there's no sexy short barreled, wide diameter Demolition Gun that fires seventy pound HESH rounds. 😢
Largely because in the US inventory, HESH has been replaced with HEDP instead. Far more capable and doesn't need fancy elements for either APFSDS/HEDP/HEAT or HESH to make them work (basically, HESH outright requires spinning to work properly, the antithesis to APFSDS and HEDP/HEAT warheads as their effectiveness decrease when spun, requiring modifications that drives up their price tag).

Doctrinally, the US basically offset the demo work that tanks can't do to artillery and aircraft.
The Army made those, and the Marines may be getting rid of thoers eventually as they don't have anything fir heavy armor anymore
Largely due to budget and capability reasons, I'm afraid. It's insanely hard to beach-land a modern Western-style MBT (hell, Shermans had a very rough time doing beach landings!), due to the fact that it has immense ground pressure and beach sand tends to be unforgiving at the best of times. Add what I said before and boom, happy fun times.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Largely because in the US inventory, HESH has been replaced with HEDP instead. Far more capable and doesn't need fancy elements for either APFSDS/HEDP/HEAT or HESH to make them work (basically, HESH outright requires spinning to work properly, the antithesis to APFSDS and HEDP/HEAT warheads as their effectiveness decrease when spun, requiring modifications that drives up their price tag).

Doctrinally, the US basically offset the demo work that tanks can't do to artillery and aircraft.

Largely due to budget and capability reasons, I'm afraid. It's insanely hard to beach-land a modern Western-style MBT (hell, Shermans had a very rough time doing beach landings!), due to the fact that it has immense ground pressure and beach sand tends to be unforgiving at the best of times. Add what I said before and boom, happy fun times.
Plus as the Marines have in doctrine.
Heavy armor is the Armies job
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Plus as the Marines have in doctrine.
Heavy armor is the Armies job
It should be, but since the US can't figure out how to make a light tank to save its ass after WW2, partially thanks to Congress (seriously, Congress would scrap the T92 -a design by AAI that had its issues ironed out and were just about to become the US Army's light tank- just because it couldn't be made amphibious, a response to the PT-76's deployment)... so they had to work with MBTs.

Spooktoon on the M551 Sheridan:
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
It should be, but since the US can't figure out how to make a light tank to save its ass after WW2, partially thanks to Congress (seriously, Congress would scrap the T92 -a design by AAI that had its issues ironed out and were just about to become the US Army's light tank- just because it couldn't be made amphibious, a response to the PT-76's deployment)... so they had to work with MBTs.

Spooktoon on the M551 Sheridan:

They ate creating a new one ya knkw
 

Carrot of Truth

War is Peace
It should be, but since the US can't figure out how to make a light tank to save its ass after WW2, partially thanks to Congress (seriously, Congress would scrap the T92 -a design by AAI that had its issues ironed out and were just about to become the US Army's light tank- just because it couldn't be made amphibious, a response to the PT-76's deployment)... so they had to work with MBTs.

Don't IFV's arguably fill the light tank role on a modern battlefield? Also a lot of the newer MBT's like Japan and Korea's are extremely light now days like Japan's Type 10 is only 48 tons in its full loadout.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
They ate creating a new one ya knkw
Plus, with the new drone warfare paradigm, heavy armor is likely going to be going the way of the battleship; theoritically useful in limited circumstances, but effectively outmoded by advances in air power.

Better to focus on mobility, firepower, and active protection systems for things like Strykers or Bradley's than traditional 'armor' or 'armor tactics', along with getting new SPAAGs and SHORAD systems.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
@Bacle
The drone warfare paradigm is...over rated a bit. High speed, high resolution targeting & tracking systems can spot them pretty well, and EM tech can go a long way to making quite a few of the 'swarm systems' kinda useless.
I disagree that those sorts of systems will be that effective at countering drones, at least competently handled drones, in the current state of affairs.

Now it we were to go full GDI and effectively create Mammoth Tanks with integrated anti-air capability and enough armor to shrug off anything below a GRAD or HIMAR, then I could see 'heavy armor' coming back into play.

But on a per unit cost basis, shit like that just doesn't fly with Congress.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
I disagree that those sorts of systems will be that effective at countering drones, at least competently handled drones, in the current state of affairs.

Now it we were to go full GDI and effectively create Mammoth Tanks with integrated anti-air capability and enough armor to shrug off anything below a GRAD or HIMAR, then I could see 'heavy armor' coming back into play.

But on a per unit cost basis, shit like that just doesn't fly with Congress.
Plus, with the new drone warfare paradigm, heavy armor is likely going to be going the way of the battleship; theoritically useful in limited circumstances, but effectively outmoded by advances in air power.

Better to focus on mobility, firepower, and active protection systems for things like Strykers or Bradley's than traditional 'armor' or 'armor tactics', along with getting new SPAAGs and SHORAD systems.

A tank officer telling you why tanks will still be in use.

Also, the US is actually competent compared to Russia and are ahead.
We have factored in drones.
Drones are only as good at AT if they are not being jammed, or being tracked.

Against competent militaries the drones are not that useful like in Ukraine
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
They ate creating a new one ya knkw
They are, but I wouldn't be surprised that Congress deep-sixes it directly or indirectly. Largely because Congress is going back to its 'cut the military to the bone' antics again. That or have the same situation as what led to the Sheridan.
Don't IFV's arguably fill the light tank role on a modern battlefield? Also a lot of the newer MBT's like Japan and Korea's are extremely light now days like Japan's Type 10 is only 48 tons in its full loadout.
No. ATGMs are not as useful as they once were, especially as new composite and laminate armor start being deployed. Also, please note that M4 Shermans -at the end of their US life cycle- was about 30-38 metric tons in weight... and they simply had hell when it comes to opposed beach landings. Hell, the US Marines lost a good portion of their tank forces in such assaults because they couldn't get around in the sand fast enough.

From my understanding of US light tank doctrine, light tanks are supposed to be part of 'recon by fire' operations, basically the equivalent of poking a hornet's nest with a stick. This, predictably, requires a punchy gun (note that the M41 Bulldog had a 76mm gun... similar to those used on Shermans), enough armor to survive against anything less than light cannon (so, essentially most autocannon and below), have plenty of range (because you need to have enough fuel to run around poking the enemy), and speed to get the hell out of dodge when the enemy response in force.
Plus, with the new drone warfare paradigm, heavy armor is likely going to be going the way of the battleship; theoritically useful in limited circumstances, but effectively outmoded by advances in air power.

Better to focus on mobility, firepower, and active protection systems for things like Strykers or Bradley's than traditional 'armor' or 'armor tactics', along with getting new SPAAGs and SHORAD systems.
I disagree that those sorts of systems will be that effective at countering drones, at least competently handled drones, in the current state of affairs.

Now it we were to go full GDI and effectively create Mammoth Tanks with integrated anti-air capability and enough armor to shrug off anything below a GRAD or HIMAR, then I could see 'heavy armor' coming back into play.

But on a per unit cost basis, shit like that just doesn't fly with Congress.
This is false, I'm afraid. Even semi-competent enemies with some basic IADS and E-War can make drones impudent rather quickly. That's why I'm foreseeing that drones' time as a weapon system is going to be very short-lived, as this level of competence will simply proliferate to the point that it won't work on anyone. We're getting to the point that for drones, you'll need AGIs to counter them... and we're out of AGIs.

Also, for those who would think SEAD/DEAD would help in these circumstances, please don't forget that history has told us that against anything resembling semi-competent in terms of IADS doctrine and competence, the IADS can (and will) give the opposing airforce a literal hell (as shown in Vietnam and when Egypt took the Sinai in one of the many Israeli-Arab Wars) or complete their IADS objectives with minimal loss of material while making the opposing force look like they're having Yakity Sax as their motif and basically run out of ARMs (Serbia). Even Arab-competent IADS can give a surprising fight against competent airforces (Gulf War 1).

That's with mid-Cold War tech and doctrine understanding, mind you. Not the 'SHORAD/AAA Systems are now bubbles of no ordinance zones' that have started to show up in every military able to buy the capability.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top