Important Summary of Punishments on 10 October 2020

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There were the initial punishments:

User @MelancholicMechanicus received a one week Politics/NSFW Politics subforum ban and a two-week ban from the "complaining about other forums" thread. This was over using prohibited slurs. The individual in question was not definitely a Sietch member, though could be; but he was not a public figure. So the punishment is much smaller. User @Shipmaster Sane received a 60-day ban from Politics and Current Affairs, and a 90-day ban from NSFW politics and current affairs, and a permanent threadban from the complaining about other forums thread. Mr. Sane has a long history and his act including elements of defying the staff and essentially flagrant and willful contempt for the rules, so it was hit harder. It's not necessary to use a slur to argue for the rules to change, nor is the complaining thread the appropriate place to do so, nor is it appropriate to do so in a way calculated to produce a response. To be clear we all agreed that Shipmaster said it for the express purpose of baiting other users who were offended by the previous use of f*ggot and therefore, because it was to provoke bad blood inside the community, the punishment should be higher.

User @Urabrask Revealed was hit for creating a scenario in which British police being killed would let you finish your picnic, as an act of protest against quarantine restrictions. He came extremely close to advocating for this scenario, which would have led to his immediate permbanning and reporting to the appropriate authorities. As it was, we're arguably letting him off easy with the punishments he received, which were a 7-day forum temp ban, a 90-day subforum ban (expiring 8 January), and a permanent thread ban. He is also on notice that a repeat offence of the same character and type will lead to a 1-year temp ban. User @Lord Invictus demanded possibly classified information (or, more pertinently, information he i.e. LI may have believed was classified, which is where the conduct issue comes from) from a member of the armed forces, and engaged in harassing behaviour toward him. He was given a 1-week ban from politics and current affairs, and a longer threadban from the particular thread in The War College discussing this (generally more politically oriented) subject.

Subsequently, User @Shipmaster Sane showed contempt for the authority of the rules and the moderation and directly violated 2e during discussions on the first round of punishment in the commentary thread, to my knowledge the first cited 2e violation on this forum. While there was a clear element of humour, there was also a real dig at @Lord Invictus ' right-wing politics which contained real contempt for him, and so in the interests of preserving the force of rule 2e, which is designed to prevent the shutting down of debate by immediately resorting to calling your opponent an extremist, we hit him with an additional threadban to the discussion thread on implementation of the enforcement changes. There was no other punishment.

Several warnings were issued, but points associated with them do not count toward any kind of automatic punishment.
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
Subsequently, User @Shipmaster Sane showed contempt for the authority of the rules and the moderation and directly violated 2e during discussions on the first round of punishment in the commentary thread, to my knowledge the first cited 2e violation on this forum. While there was a clear element of humour, there was also a real dig at @Lord Invictus ' right-wing politics which contained real contempt for him
That is a blatant lie and you and everyone else knows it. That was a playful remark aimed at someone who was on my side of the argument, was not in the least bit hostile to him, showed no contempt, was correctly interpreted by him to be harmless banter, and the Mod that hit me immediately admitted he knew what I said was only a joke.
 
D

Deleted member 88

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I posted my reply on the open appeals thread, the staff either infracted in prejudicial bad faith, or have extremely poor reading comprehension.

As for Shane, I knew he was joking, and did not take his words as a serious accusation of me being a Nazi, but a callow jest in agreement with the post of mine he quoted.

If the staff want to enforce that rule across the board, that's their prerogative, but I will vouch on his behalf for this particular dust up.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Yeah the conversation between shane and invictus clearly shows it was a joke.

@Zoe i feel like as we had seen in previous threads and said in the thread sane was banned in. As well as something happening with Invictus.

A misunderstanding about the way it was said. The joke about invictus was fun and since he took no offense as seen on the profile post, it should not be a reason to do what happend. Should it have been not a joke and been a serious thing that one took offense the ban would ne great.

I am also here to say @Lord Invictus was not demanding classified stuff from me. He made an argument, and I was not able to answer it. It was an argument taken out if context.

I was not able to defend myself so I saw he had a valid point. Had he been demanding classified information i would have reported it myself but seeing to me he was just finding a hole in my argument and I was unable to answer said question, as I did not know the answer.

I may not get along with Sane and Invictus but these instances are definitely not what they were infracged for and I would like for further review of it with perhaps the idea that misunderstanding and joking were in mind for either case.

aaaaand late night posting before bed done.
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
As for Shane, I knew he was joking, and did not take his words as a serious accusation of me being a Nazi, but a callow jest in agreement with the post of mine he quoted.
If the staff want to enforce that rule across the board, that's their prerogative, but I will vouch on his behalf for this particular dust up.

I'd further point out that I even had a post in the thread insisting that it was a joke before I even got hit for it, and that post, ah, hmm, disappeared mysteriously.

And then another poster proceeded to call Boot a nazi three or four times out in the open, daring him to threadban him, doing in earnest that which I was accused of, and was not punished. Good, he was, after all, making the point clear in my defense.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Subsequently, User @Shipmaster Sane showed contempt for the authority of the rules and the moderation and directly violated 2e during discussions on the first round of punishment in the commentary thread, to my knowledge the first cited 2e violation on this forum. While there was a clear element of humour, there was also a real dig at @Lord Invictus ' right-wing politics which contained real contempt for him, and so in the interests of preserving the force of rule 2e, which is designed to prevent the shutting down of debate by immediately resorting to calling your opponent an extremist, we hit him with an additional threadban to the discussion thread on implementation of the enforcement changes. There was no other punishment.

OK, this caught my interest... Shipmaster Sane is himself fairly right-wing from what I've seen. So why would he have "dug" at @Lord Invictus ' right-wing politics? Also, from what I have seen, he doesn't seem to be vitrolic type anyway. So do you really think there was an element of vitrol? Or it is an optics thing?

I can't say more because I don't know what post exactly this is referring to, so...
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
OK, this caught my interest... Shipmaster Sane is himself fairly right-wing from what I've seen. So why would he have "dug" at @Lord Invictus ' right-wing politics? Also, from what I have seen, he doesn't seem to be vitrolic type anyway. So do you really think there was an element of vitrol? Or it is an optics thing?

I can't say more because I don't know what post exactly this is referring to, so...
The post they're talking about there is the one in that previous "civility" thread where Invictus and I were on the same side of the argument so I liked his post and said "Yeah I agree with the hitler guy" as a joke.

The post or posts (yknow guys! the ones I cant see because you kicked me from the subforum! The ones I asked about last thread?) I was hit for before that thread are a separate issue. The mods should not just refer to them Obliquely in this thread or in the last, they should (should have) fully quoted them (it?) at the very least, considering they were going to be referring to them extensively.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
The post they're talking about there is the one in that previous "civility" thread where Invictus and I were on the same side of the argument so I liked his post and said "Yeah I agree with the hitler guy" as a joke.

Ah, so it is this one:
"Yeah hitler guy is right."
(blackened since I am not certain I was supposed to quote it here, but I did it for the sake of having proper discussion of the issue).

So yeah, I'd definitely say the staff overreacted here. Though it might have helped if you had added a smiley or something - as already pointed out somewhere, emotions don't really translate well into forum format due to lack of nonverbal cues.

@Zoe I really do not see the "real dig at @Lord Invictus ' right-wing politics which contained real contempt for him" you have mentioned. Though it is true that, as I noted in this post, @Shipmaster Sane could have formatted the post better so that his intent carries over more clearly, I personally had no problem understanding it anyway. And coming from slightly humour-impaired cynic, that is saying a lot.
 

Jormungandr

The Midgard Wyrm
Founder
@Shipmaster Sane made a clear joke. @Lord Invictus understood it was a joke. You also proved the point he was trying to make.

I'm sorry @Zoe, but the staff involved fucked up harder than those two terrorists who built a bomb with a GPS timer and promptly blew themselves up the moment they installed it (it actually happened: they thought it was set for GMT +8, but it was set for their local. Boom).

The "missing post" already mentioned is also pretty suspicious, too. There's nothing wrong in admitting you made a mistake @Emperor Tippy, but trying to cover it up while everyone else knows? C'mon, man.
 

Emperor Tippy

Merchant of Death
Super Moderator
Staff Member
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@Shipmaster Sane, regardless of his reasons, referred to another poster on this site as "Hitler Guy".

If you do not understand why that is a rules violation then I really can't help you. Our rules do not have an "I wasn't serious" or an "I was joking" exception.

He violated the rules, he got hit. The "seriousness" (it was a threadban) of the punishment was because of the posters repeated violations of the rules, repeated trolling that approached being a violation of the rules and that he has received friendly warnings for before, and continued poor behavior.

If he doesn't like his infraction, he is free to appeal it.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
@Shipmaster Sane, regardless of his reasons, referred to another poster on this site as "Hitler Guy".

If you do not understand why that is a rules violation then I really can't help you. Our rules do not have an "I wasn't serious" or an "I was joking" exception.

He violated the rules, he got hit. The "seriousness" (it was a threadban) of the punishment was because of the posters repeated violations of the rules, repeated trolling that approached being a violation of the rules and that he has received friendly warnings for before, and continued poor behavior.

If he doesn't like his infraction, he is free to appeal it.
We had a discussion where we agreed if a comment is made in joke it is generally fine as long as it isn't a slur.

At least that is where the civility thread showed and people feared making a joke that the person it was directed roo ment no harm and did no harm would get them in trouble.

And that is exactly what it did.
 

Shipmaster Sane

You have been weighed
@Shipmaster Sane, regardless of his reasons, referred to another poster on this site as "Hitler Guy".
If the reasons don't matter then how about the Mods stop lying about my reasons? After all, if the innocence and good humor of the joke don't matter in regards to my punishment (which is of course within your powers to say, but may not be the best idea), then we really shouldnt see stuff like.... oh.... this

there was also a real dig at @Lord Invictus ' right-wing politics which contained real contempt for him


Which is it guys? Jokes are fine and what I did was bad because it showed bitter hatred towards @Lord Invictus? Like Mods were endlessly reiterating throughout the thread and now here, or "Regardless of reasons" and "I know he was joking" and "It diddnt add anything in a serious thread"


Maybe you guys should have a little huddle before making more clear, decisive statements that may or may not align with each other.


He violated the rules, he got hit.
C4 did the exact same thing as me, only without any of the good humor, several times, to a mod, to prove a point, and diddnt get hit, because "it was obvious he was just joking"



There were the initial punishments:

User @MelancholicMechanicus received a one week Politics/NSFW Politics subforum ban and a two-week ban from the "complaining about other forums" thread. This was over using prohibited slurs. The individual in question was not definitely a Sietch member, though could be; but he was not a public figure. So the punishment is much smaller. User @Shipmaster Sane received a 60-day ban from Politics and Current Affairs, and a 90-day ban from NSFW politics and current affairs, and a permanent threadban from the complaining about other forums thread. Mr. Sane has a long history and his act including elements of defying the staff and essentially flagrant and willful contempt for the rules, so it was hit harder. It's not necessary to use a slur to argue for the rules to change, nor is the complaining thread the appropriate place to do so, nor is it appropriate to do so in a way calculated to produce a response. To be clear we all agreed that Shipmaster said it for the express purpose of baiting other users who were offended by the previous use of f*ggot and therefore, because it was to provoke bad blood inside the community, the punishment should be higher.

Now, lets see that quote @Zoe.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
@Shipmaster Sane, regardless of his reasons, referred to another poster on this site as "Hitler Guy".

If you do not understand why that is a rules violation then I really can't help you. Our rules do not have an "I wasn't serious" or an "I was joking" exception.

So letter of the rule is more important than the spirit of the rule? Healthy forum requires a bit of a leeway, which includes friendly ribbing. Humour is part of healthy life and healthy psyche, so I really don't get why his comment should have led to this sort of reaction. Also, what you stated differs significantly from Zoe's OP, specifically this part:
While there was a clear element of humour, there was also a real dig at @Lord Invictus ' right-wing politics which contained real contempt for him
 

Leepysheepy

Miserable Fuzzy Humanoid
Sane made it clear it was a joke, the supposed victim knew it was a joke and took no offense, the mod who gave the punishment (and the entire mod team in general, as far as we have seen) were aware it was a joke, we have had no outside observers come forward to explain they felt personally attacked by the statement, what harm was committed exactly? And further, how do you justify dishonesty in your later official summary of the event?
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Sane made a stupid attempt to bait the mods on the rules, rules that have been not all that well enforced for a while, and he got hit for it.

That it was a joke DOES NOT MATTER.

He decided to stick his foot in a shark tank, no one should be surprised it got bitten.
 

LordSunhawk

Das BOOT (literally)
Owner
Administrator
Staff Member
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Let me pose two scenarios to people.

You have an individual who is normally a pretty chill guy, doesn't violate the rules, doesn't cause drama. He jokingly posts about somebody else 'We hear from Hitler guy' in a plainly joking manner.

You have an individual who is constantly dancing on the edge of the rules, who lives to troll and see just how much he can get away with, who constantly is playing 'I'm not touching you!' games with the rules to see how far he can go. He jokingly posts about somebody else 'we hear from Hitler guy' in a plainly joking manner.

If you cannot see the difference in those two scenarios, I'm afraid I can't help you any further.
 
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