Israel ðŸ‡®ðŸ‡± State of Israel Thread

Marduk

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Why do you call them their fellow?
Can't someone make just a stupid an argument? If the white countries don't want their fellow whites(the jews) as citizens then they can keep them in refugee camps in their countries.
What language do Israelis speak? What European countries do they share it with? Also missed that post about genetics?
Isn't there enough history to show that across Europe they weren't exactly considered "fellow" by the locals and it went both ways?
Egyptians are different than Syrians.
Irrelevant, but are Palestinians different than Syrians or Jordanians? :sneaky:
So different that they can talk to each other in their native language, sure...
The Egyptians have thousands of years of history, their blood goes back to the time of the Pharaoh's. And no most of the local Egyptian population was not wiped out in the Muslim invasions.
But they were conquered and culturally assimilated.
So more apt question would be, is England different from Wales?
Is Venice different from Italy?
Is Crete different from Greece?
The Copts have a closer link to Ancient Egypt since they did not abandon their culture as much(except for polytheism) But they still have ties and remnants from that time, and the blood is still theirs.
And they are a fairly mistreated minority not in charge of that country, giving us an idea why Egyptians became the culture they are now.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
What language do Israelis speak? What European countries do they share it with? Also missed that post about genetics?
Isn't there enough history to show that across Europe they weren't exactly considered "fellow" by the locals and it went both ways?
So everything is based on language?

Irrelevant, but are Palestinians different than Syrians or Jordanians? :sneaky:
So different that they can talk to each other in their native language, sure...
I would assume so. Syrians and Jordanians are diffrent from each other. And either you or someone else said Palastinians were part of all 3 like some sort of Schrodinger's nation. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. Those nations are different if they weren't they'd be one empire. And no one would want such a super state to come into existance.

But they were conquered and culturally assimilated.
So more apt question would be, is England different from Wales?
Is Venice different from Italy?
Is Crete different from Greece?
Notice how they are all part of one nation. England and Wales part of the United Kingdom. Venice is part of Italy, Crete is part of Greece. They part of the same state. Tell me what state controls Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia?

And they are a fairly mistreated minority not in charge of that country, giving us an idea why Egyptians became the culture they are now.
Common Egyptians and Copts are the same. The differance between them is smaller than the differance between Austrians and Germans. They are the same genetically. It's just that common Egyptians adopted the culture of their conquerors to get better treatment.
 
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Marduk

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So everything is based on language?
Not everything, but you can't claim total difference when they share a language and it's no accident that they do.
I would assume so. Syrians and Jordanians are diffrent from each other.
In what way? Genetically? Culturally? Language? In that case it's tough to find any, these are the poster countries for "european powers drawing lines on maps" until after WW1 were not separate countries, just parts of Ottoman Empire.
And either you or someone else said Palastinians were part of all 3 like some sort of Schrodinger's nation. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. Those nations are different if they weren't they'd be one empire. And no one would want such a super state to come into existance.
What nations? They aren't nation-states, they are all Arab states.
They were in fact all one empire until that empire was divided after WW1.
Stop pretending you can't access history 101.
Notice how they are all part of one nation. England and Wales part of the United Kingdom. Venice is part of Italy, Crete is part of Greece. They part of the same state. Tell me what state controls Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia?
Ah, so according to you nations come and go depending on political declarations?
You think Czechoslovak nation existed, and then, one moment in 1992, it ceased to, while coincidentally Czech and Slovak nations just popped into existence?
Common Egyptians and Copts are the same.
LMAO.
The differance between them is smaller than the differance between Austrians and Germans.
Clown world.
They are the same genetically. It's just that common Egyptians adopted the culture of their conquerors to get better treatment.
Ah, so language, culture, religion and loyalty don't matter, genetics, and bad pop-genetics at that, should decide national borders, got it.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
Which is just plain wrong and sounds like some myths repeated in certain circles. Like genetic arguments?

TL;DR Ashkenazi Jews have similar genetics to other Jews, just with a bit more European admixture.

Not myth,reality.Medieval Russians were not genociders,like soviets.They do not killed Chazars.Some jews come there from East,but rest - they were Chazars.
And later run to polish territories,when Ivan terrible covard start murdering jews on his lands.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
Not everything, but you can't claim total difference when they share a language and it's no accident that they do.
Then no one can claim any total differance since every group has common similarities. French and Italians are the same they are both descended from Latin but the local dialects diverged.

In what way? Genetically? Culturally? Language? In that case it's tough to find any, these are the poster countries for "european powers drawing lines on maps" until after WW1 were not separate countries, just parts of Ottoman Empire.
I'm not an expert in middle eastern peoples, but if you are making the claim that they are all one people why haven't they joined together?

What nations? They aren't nation-states, they are all Arab states.
They were in fact all one empire until that empire was divided after WW1.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration#Ottoman_Palestine Stop pretending you can't access history 101.
And Israel did not exist till 1948. No you don't have to have a state to be a nation, jews were a nation for thousands of years even if they did not have a country. To be a nation you have to be a group of people with a common culture that thinks of yourself as one people. The Palastinians see themselves as Palastinian, the Egyptians see themselves as Egyptian.

Ah, so according to you nations come and go depending on political declarations?
You think Czechoslovak nation existed, and then, one moment in 1992, it ceased to, while coincidentally Czech and Slovak nations just popped into existence?
No what makes a nation is many things, language, culture, history, religion, and of course blood/genetics. The Czech's and Slovaks were two diffrent people in one nation.

What differances do they have that are not based on religion? Do they eat diffrent foods, look diffrent? Again the only differance is that they are the minority who remained true to their faith while the rest of the Egyptians bent over for the Arab conqurors. But the genetics connection of the common Egyptian are just the same like the genetics connection of the modern Greek to their ancestors. If modern Egyptians decided to reject Arab imposition there would truly be no differance between the Copts, and the majority Egyptian except religion.

Clown world.
What are the real differances between Austria and Germany? Why should they be a separate people? You could say history, but wouldn't actually be right because Germany is a modern artifical creation of all the German states, (led by Prussia) Those states have a similar history to Austria. Austria was not brought into a German empire because they were Catholic and too big too absorb by mostly protestant Germany(except Bavaria). But now there is no differance both states are Secular, modern Germany does not enforce or favor Protestantism. And modern Austria does not enforce Catholic laws, or favor the Catholic Church above others. What makes them diffrent? They both speak German, they both have similar clothes, music, food, beer, customs. What seperates them but religion?

Ah, so language, culture, religion and loyalty don't matter, genetics, and bad pop-genetics at that, should decide national borders, got it.
I said earlier it does, that stuff does matter but only if there is a differance like there are two similar groups but they seperate themselves based on those things, but tell me Marduk you are Polish. If a Polish person stops being Catholic and instead becomes a Muslim, a Jew, Buddhis, or atheist do you think they lost their Polishness? Is adherence to Catholicism like most Poles have a requirement to be a Pole?

This is why I do NOT see a so-called two-state solution happening! Those Palestinians are TERRORISTS & need to be exterminated by any means necessary.
Can't tell if serious or not?
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Can't tell if serious or not?

If he is serious, then he sounds like a Nazi. Though I wouldn't be surprised if a large number of Israelis actually would support or at least be ambivalent towards a mass expulsion of the Palestinian Arabs from the West Bank.
 

Marduk

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Then no one can claim any total differance since every group has common similarities. French and Italians are the same they are both descended from Latin but the local dialects diverged.
Except in case of Arab world, we aren't talking about having similar language a thousand years ago but diverging since then, they didn't, it's still the same language, at worst with an equivalent of bad Scottish or Australian dialect for English speakers as far as being hard to understand goes.
I'm not an expert in middle eastern peoples, but if you are making the claim that they are all one people why haven't they joined together?
Why haven't North Korea and South Korea joined together despite actually being one people?
Politics.
Assads like their power, Hashemites like their power, lots of tribalisms, Gulf States not wanting to share their oil money nor to be conquered out of their oil money etc.
If they were ever to become easygoing populist democracies and tell all the islamist influencers causing incidental and intentional divisions between them to sod off, we could see some of them uniting.
And Israel did not exist till 1948. No you don't have to have a state to be a nation, jews were a nation for thousands of years even if they did not have a country. To be a nation you have to be a group of people with a common culture that thinks of yourself as one people.
So far so good.

The Palastinians see themselves as Palastinian, the Egyptians see themselves as Egyptian.
And here you are blindly projecting the European post-Westphalian order upon people who don't know it and don't care about it.
Look up the quotes of notable leaders from Syria and Palestine i brought up earlier. Also look up the sheer amount of lobbying and fighting the Arab states did for the "Palestinian cause" - would totally foreign people put so much effort into some other nation they don't give a damn about?
Did Hafez Assad get yelled at by Palestinians for denying their existence as a nation to Arafat's face and claiming they are just Syrians?

No what makes a nation is many things, language, culture, history, religion, and of course blood/genetics. The Czech's and Slovaks were two diffrent people in one nation.
But they don't consider themselves one nation, that's why they split. They are two nations formerly squeezed into a greater polity. The reverse is also possible, like the split of Korea or earlier, Germany.

What differances do they have that are not based on religion? Do they eat diffrent foods, look diffrent? Again the only differance is that they are the minority who remained true to their faith while the rest of the Egyptians bent over for the Arab conqurors. But the genetics connection of the common Egyptian are just the same like the genetics connection of the modern Greek to their ancestors. If modern Egyptians decided to reject Arab imposition there would truly be no differance between the Copts, and the majority Egyptian except religion.
Then you are just simply uninformed. Religion is just the surface, somewhat different culture with socioeconomic differences follows, then there is language (Coptic vs Egyptian Arabic), and to some degree genetics - 23andme even separates Egyptian and Coptic Egyptian.
main-qimg-abb37f3d9d78c4dacf3359974ea2d04d


What are the real differances between Austria and Germany?
Why should they be a separate people?
Politics, that's what a certain mustachioed gentleman who died in a bunker asked.

You could say history, but wouldn't actually be right because Germany is a modern artifical creation of all the German states, (led by Prussia) Those states have a similar history to Austria. Austria was not brought into a German empire because they were Catholic and too big too absorb by mostly protestant Germany(except Bavaria). But now there is no differance both states are Secular, modern Germany does not enforce or favor Protestantism. And modern Austria does not enforce Catholic laws, or favor the Catholic Church above others. What makes them diffrent? They both speak German, they both have similar clothes, music, food, beer, customs. What seperates them but religion?
Even religion, being western European many there don't care much anymore. But historical heritage does separate them somewhat, Kaiserreich vs Austro-Hungary, with some underlying cultural differences to follow, like Austria having looser anti smoking laws enforcement.

I said earlier it does, that stuff does matter but only if there is a differance like there are two similar groups but they seperate themselves based on those things, but tell me Marduk you are Polish. If a Polish person stops being Catholic and instead becomes a Muslim, a Jew, Buddhis, or atheist do you think they lost their Polishness? Is adherence to Catholicism like most Poles have a requirement to be a Pole?
No. But as i said it's not a matter of one factor, it's really a compound of many. If a Polish person becomes a Muslim, starts talking Arabic, starts dressing like a Bedouin, and declares his loyalty to some caliph over infidel governments, then for practical purposes, how is he Polish anymore?
Not myth,reality.Medieval Russians were not genociders,like soviets.They do not killed Chazars.Some jews come there from East,but rest - they were Chazars.
And later run to polish territories,when Ivan terrible covard start murdering jews on his lands.
Of all people you should know better.
 
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WolfBear

Well-known member
One of my favorite threads about Gaza on another forum:


 

WolfBear

Well-known member
What language do Israelis speak? What European countries do they share it with? Also missed that post about genetics?
Isn't there enough history to show that across Europe they weren't exactly considered "fellow" by the locals and it went both ways?

Many Israelis spoke Polish or Russian or Yiddish or German or Romanian once they arrived in Israel. And don't Ashkenazi Jews share something like half of their DNA with Italians?

Ashkenazi Jews are a Middle Eastern-European hybrid while Mizrahi Jews are just Middle Eastern, I would presume.
 

History Learner

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And what is the specific problem solving of which you are implying here?

I think a return to 1967 borders would solve the Palestine-Israel issues, about as best as can be. The existing situation is untenable, Israel attempting to expand is untenable (Especially on moral grounds), and Palestinians eliminating Israel as a state is untenable (Equally on moral grounds). The aspect of compromise that must people seem to forget is that it's not meant to please everyone, but be "good enough" and it is realistically the only long term solution that doesn't end in genocide either way.
 
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WolfBear

Well-known member
I think a return to 1967 borders would solve the Palestine-Israel issues, about as best as possible as can be. The existing situation is untenable, Israel attempting to expand is untenable (Especially on moral grounds), and Palestinians eliminating Israel as a state is untenable (Equally on moral grounds). The aspect of compromise that must people seem to forget is that it's not meant to please everyone, but be "good enough" and it is realistically the only long term solution that doesn't end in genocide either way.

If Russia waging an expansionist war is acceptable on moral grounds, then so is the much less drastic step of having Israel build territorially small settlements near its borders. I do agree that building settlements deep in the West Bank is a mistake, though, and I thus believe that settlements such as Ariel should be evacuated and resettled by Palestinian Arabs.

The exact 1967 lines are unfeasible since they would leave hundreds of thousands of Israeli settlers stuck in a Palestinian state, but this number can be reduced by, say, 75-80% through mutually agreed land swaps such as these:

A-Stable-Border-Proposal-for-land-swaps-2020-scaled.jpg


I'd be fine with giving the Palestinians extra (disproportionate) land in these land swaps as compensation if their land from these land swaps is of poorer quality than the land that Israel would get from these land swaps.
 

WolfBear

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FWIW, I myself would also want Israel to build in E-1 while it still can:

ed31f73ddc7cdf0ded3ce8f2454da8050aa8f39e.jpg


It is right near the border with Israel proper, after all. And Bethlehem and Ramallah could still be connected by a road that goes to the east of Ma'ale Adummim, no?
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Russian Operated S-300 System Fired at Israeli Jets in what was described as a one off incident back in May.


This comes in the Wake of legal attempts to close the Moscow based Jewish Agency in Russia and Russian criticism of Israel in regards to Ukraine, one officla stating Israel having been "unconstructive" in this matter.

 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Russian Operated S-300 System Fired at Israeli Jets in what was described as a one off incident back in May.


This comes in the Wake of legal attempts to close the Moscow based Jewish Agency in Russia and Russian criticism of Israel in regards to Ukraine, one officla stating Israel having been "unconstructive" in this matter.


Russia doesn't want to lose its remaining Jews. I suppose that Russia could theoretically demand bribes from Israel in exchange for keeping the Jewish Agency open in Russia. Very nasty, but perfect behavior for a rogue regime. Ceaucescu previously used bribes as a bargaining chip in allowing Romanian Jews and Germans to emigrate, after all.
 
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