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Israel State of Israel Thread

commanderkai

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In my non-Israeli opinion, the Gaza pullout shitshow basically destroyed any real chance of the Palestinians having an actual state. There is absolutely no reason why the Israelis should take another gamble with the West Bank.

I've said it on SB and other places, and I'll say it here. Anything on the Israeli side of the border wall will stay Israeli. Jerusalem is an Israeli city, under Israeli control. The Palestinian leadership had, and lost their chance at any real control over the city.

I would greatly appreciate the Israelis also taking control of Christian holy sites as seemingly Palestinian security forces can't stop assholes from damaging/destroying religious sites.
 

King Arts

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In my non-Israeli opinion, the Gaza pullout shitshow basically destroyed any real chance of the Palestinians having an actual state. There is absolutely no reason why the Israelis should take another gamble with the West Bank.

I've said it on SB and other places, and I'll say it here. Anything on the Israeli side of the border wall will stay Israeli. Jerusalem is an Israeli city, under Israeli control. The Palestinian leadership had, and lost their chance at any real control over the city.

I would greatly appreciate the Israelis also taking control of Christian holy sites as seemingly Palestinian security forces can't stop assholes from damaging/destroying religious sites.
Uhh no, neither Jews nor Christians should be taking control of Christian sites. Those sites should be under the Church's control.

Edit shit sorry meant neither Jews nor Muslims.
 
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49ersfootball

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At what point does Bennett take the gloves off & wipes these agitators off the map ?
 

GoldRanger

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In slightly nicer news, the COVID facemask mandates have recently been lifted in Israel for the first time in a long time. Masks are no longer required even in closed spaces.
 

Cherico

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In slightly nicer news, the COVID facemask mandates have recently been lifted in Israel for the first time in a long time. Masks are no longer required even in closed spaces.
breathing in that freedom yet?
 

GoldRanger

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Russia invited a delegation from Hamas to discuss Palestinian issues and the tensions around the Al-Aqsa Mosque.

This is probably a response to Israel summoning the Russian embassador for clarifications after Lavrov (MFA of Russia) said Hitler had Jewish blood. These back and forths between Russia and Israel are getting more common.
 

WolfBear

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It's one of the worst things he ever did. The removal of all Jewish presence in Gaza has turned it into a fortress of ISIS-like terrorism, fueled by Israel's worst enemies and wielded as a weapon to disturb it's economy whenever they deem fit.
But wasn't a large part of the reason for the withdrawal the security dangers in having to constantly guard the lives of 8,000 Jewish settlers against a giant population of 1.5 million Palestinian Arabs in a very tightly packed space?

This is probably a response to Israel summoning the Russian embassador for clarifications after Lavrov (MFA of Russia) said Hitler had Jewish blood. These back and forths between Russia and Israel are getting more common.
Israel should expand its Law of Return in order to allow aspiring immigrants with only a Jewish great-grandparent to move to Israel so that Israel could recruit additional immigrants from Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine.
 

Cherico

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But wasn't a large part of the reason for the withdrawal the security dangers in having to constantly guard the lives of 8,000 Jewish settlers against a giant population of 1.5 million Palestinian Arabs in a very tightly packed space?



Israel should expand its Law of Return in order to allow aspiring immigrants with only a Jewish great-grandparent to move to Israel so that Israel could recruit additional immigrants from Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine.
if their willing to convert then I see no problem with this.
 

GoldRanger

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But wasn't a large part of the reason for the withdrawal the security dangers in having to constantly guard the lives of 8,000 Jewish settlers against a giant population of 1.5 million Palestinian Arabs in a very tightly packed space?
Not to my knowledge. Up until the withdrawal they were doing fine, sometimes some soldiers died, but then again, soldiers and civilians die today too in terror attacks inside Israel proper.

The internal public justification at the very least was always that it's a move to encourage negotiations and peace, not a word about saving Israeli lives directly or whatnot.

Israel should expand its Law of Return in order to allow aspiring immigrants with only a Jewish great-grandparent to move to Israel so that Israel could recruit additional immigrants from Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine.
And risk losing its Jewish character by importing basically gentiles with almost no shared values, and devalue the very purpose of the country as a Jewish safe haven? Not a chance in hell.

That's what Europe and the US have been doing in the name of "diversity" and it didn't get them anything but headaches. Israel is doing just fine with mostly actual Jews populating it.
 

WolfBear

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Not to my knowledge. Up until the withdrawal they were doing fine, sometimes some soldiers died, but then again, soldiers and civilians die today too in terror attacks inside Israel proper.

The internal public justification at the very least was always that it's a move to encourage negotiations and peace, not a word about saving Israeli lives directly or whatnot.


And risk losing its Jewish character by importing basically gentiles with almost no shared values, and devalue the very purpose of the country as a Jewish safe haven? Not a chance in hell.

That's what Europe and the US have been doing in the name of "diversity" and it didn't get them anything but headaches. Israel is doing just fine with mostly actual Jews populating it.
I was just asking because I know that in 2004, this family's death was a huge deal:


As for Israel's Jewish character being undermined, please keep in mind that Israel already allows people who have just one Jewish great-grandparent to move to Israel if it's their maternal great-grandmother and even if these people have no personal connection to Judaism. So, this will simply be taking this principle to the next level. From a left-wing Jewish perspective, it shouldn't matter which of your great-grandparents were Jewish. Rather, what should matter is whether or not you will successfully assimilate.

And as for diversity, the US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand have managed it better than Western Europe. Here's the secret: They primarily imported the well-educated Muslims rather than the Muslim underclasses. Latin Americans, Indians, East Asians, Vietnamese, et cetera are less problematic, especially if a lot of the latter immigrants also come from the cognitive elites of those countries.




The main uneducated group moving to the US en masse are Latin Americans, but even then, they don't have a terrorism problem like Muslims have and they are not as crime-prone as US blacks are. Living next to Latinos isn't that bad. It's actually rather pleasant if you don't go into their neighborhoods at night. During the day is fine, of course.

Anyway, back to your point about Israel: Israel accepted plenty of people who aren't Jewish according to Jewish religious law and yet to my knowledge they have generally integrated well in Israel. They can't legally marry in Israel and instead have to get married abroad, and dealing with the Chief Rabbinate is a hastle, but otherwise, they appear to be well-integrated in Israeli society. My own parents belonged to their category during the almost ten years that we lived in Israel.
 

GoldRanger

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I was just asking because I know that in 2004, this family's death was a huge deal:

The Fogel family's death was also a big deal, that doesn't mean you'll see a withdrawal from the West Bank any time soon. Vicious terror attacks happened before and after the Gaza withdrawal (and will happen in the future too), some will garner more media attention, others less. In Israel they're often used as justification to increase security, but almost never to withdraw or make concessions to terrorists.

As for Israel's Jewish character being undermined, please keep in mind that Israel already allows people who have just one Jewish great-grandparent to move to Israel if it's their maternal great-grandmother and even if these people have no personal connection to Judaism. So, this will simply be taking this principle to the next level. From a left-wing Jewish perspective, it shouldn't matter which of your great-grandparents were Jewish. Rather, what should matter is whether or not you will successfully assimilate.
There's absolutely nothing simple about it.

It's like saying "Mexicans are already crossing the border illegally by the millions, completely opening all US borders and eliminating any and all controls and oversight would be "merely" taking it to the next level".

No, dude, this "next level" is a pretty huge deal.

And as for diversity, the US, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand have managed it better than Western Europe.
*Recalls BLM riots*

I don't think so, champ.

Here's the secret: They primarily imported the well-educated Muslims rather than the Muslim underclasses. Latin Americans, Indians, East Asians, Vietnamese, et cetera are less problematic, especially if a lot of the latter immigrants also come from the cognitive elites of those countries.




The main uneducated group moving to the US en masse are Latin Americans, but even then, they don't have a terrorism problem like Muslims have and they are not as crime-prone as US blacks are. Living next to Latinos isn't that bad. It's actually rather pleasant if you don't go into their neighborhoods at night. During the day is fine, of course.
"It's actually rather pleasant if you don't go into their neighborhoods at night." I'm rolling on the floor laughing right now. "These guys are totally fine and I'm glad we've taken on as many of them as we did, they terrorize the neighborhood for only half the day!"

Anyway, back to your point about Israel: Israel accepted plenty of people who aren't Jewish according to Jewish religious law and yet to my knowledge they have generally integrated well in Israel. They can't legally marry in Israel and instead have to get married abroad, and dealing with the Chief Rabbinate is a hastle, but otherwise, they appear to be well-integrated in Israeli society. My own parents belonged to their category during the almost ten years that we lived in Israel.
Yes, OK, so? There's absolutely zero reason to change the status quo in favor of importing people with even more tenuous ties to Judaism. None. Israel already has more native talent than it can shake a stick at, and its booming hi-tech industry is the result.

Israel is a country by Jews and for Jews, not only religious Jews but ethno-cultural Jews as well. It's about culture, not about race or genetic. People who have almost nothing to do with the Jewish people should not be welcome just because they have some very distant Jewish ancestry.
 

WolfBear

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The Fogel family's death was also a big deal, that doesn't mean you'll see a withdrawal from the West Bank any time soon. Vicious terror attacks happened before and after the Gaza withdrawal (and will happen in the future too), some will garner more media attention, others less. In Israel they're often used as justification to increase security, but almost never to withdraw or make concessions to terrorists.



There's absolutely nothing simple about it.

It's like saying "Mexicans are already crossing the border illegally by the millions, completely opening all US borders and eliminating any and all controls and oversight would be "merely" taking it to the next level".

No, dude, this "next level" is a pretty huge deal.



*Recalls BLM riots*

I don't think so, champ.



"It's actually rather pleasant if you don't go into their neighborhoods at night." I'm rolling on the floor laughing right now. "These guys are totally fine and I'm glad we've taken on as many of them as we did, they terrorize the neighborhood for only half the day!"



Yes, OK, so? There's absolutely zero reason to change the status quo in favor of importing people with even more tenuous ties to Judaism. None. Israel already has more native talent than it can shake a stick at, and its booming hi-tech industry is the result.

Israel is a country by Jews and for Jews, not only religious Jews but ethno-cultural Jews as well. It's about culture, not about race or genetic. People who have almost nothing to do with the Jewish people should not be welcome just because they have some very distant Jewish ancestry.
So, maybe you should also change the law to prevent people who are 1/8th, 1/16th, 1/32rd, et cetera Jewish from moving to Israel if their Jewish ancestry is exclusively on their maternal side?

As for the BLM riots, that's due to native US blacks. Native US blacks are, on average, extremely crime-prone. I wouldn't venture into their neighborhoods even during the day. Immigrants don't have much to do with BLM.

Out of curiosity--if you oppose diluting Israel's Jewish character, would you also support criminalizing apostasy, especially in a hypothetical scenario where a lot of Israeli Jews will leave the Jewish faith and join other religions? After all, that would also dilute Israel's Jewish character.

There's nothing per se incompatible about accepting a lot of non-Jews while still having Israel remain a safe haven for Jews. You could profile the non-Jews more aggressively to weed out the anti-Semites, you know?

As for Israel having more than enough native talent, couldn't any Western country likewise make a similar argument in favor of further immigration restriction? After all, the US did very well scientifically-wise and technologically-wise between 1924 and 1965, when it accepted few immigrants. In fact, this is a time that white nationalists in the US sometimes, if not often, fantasize about.

And given just how difficult it is to convert to Judaism, one can't exactly say that Judaism is a welcoming religion by any means.
 

GoldRanger

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So, maybe you should also change the law to prevent people who are 1/8th, 1/16th, 1/32rd, et cetera Jewish from moving to Israel if their Jewish ancestry is exclusively on their maternal side?
I'm not exactly sure why you're hung up on changing the law of return? It works fine the way it is. The purpose is to encompass as much of the Jewish people in all their diversity as possible without nabbing people that are completely unrelated.

Are you even sure the law of return allows for a 1/32 part Jew on the matrilinear side to become a citizen? Is there even a precedent for something like this ever happening?

As for the BLM riots, that's due to native US blacks. Native US blacks are, on average, extremely crime-prone. I wouldn't venture into their neighborhoods even during the day. Immigrants don't have much to do with BLM.
It has nothing to do with immigration in the US, but everything to do with "diversity". Clashing cultures with clashing values, especially ones with an antagonistic history, being forced to share a country is a recipe for disaster, as Syria, Lebanon and a multitude of examples around the world prove.

Incidentally, that's why the so-called "one state solution" is a terrible idea.

Out of curiosity--if you oppose diluting Israel's Jewish character, would you also support criminalizing apostasy, especially in a hypothetical scenario where a lot of Israeli Jews will leave the Jewish faith and join other religions? After all, that would also dilute Israel's Jewish character.
No. There should be a balance between the Jewish character of the country and the free will of its citizens. Loosening immigration laws harms the former and doesn't do anything for the latter.

Israel's two main qualities are supposed to be that it's Jewish and democratic, as enshrined in the Scroll of Independence. Either one by itself is insufficient. That's why I also support introducing civil marriage to Israel, as well as public transportation on Saturday.

There's nothing per se incompatible about accepting a lot of non-Jews while still having Israel remain a safe haven for Jews. You could profile the non-Jews more aggressively to weed out the anti-Semites, you know?
Even assuming that's something that can even be profiled, that's not how this works. Opinions can change over generations in any case, so nobody can guarantee that their children won't be affected by antisemitic propaganda down the line.

And then there's the matter of sovereignty and self-determination. An integral part of Israel being a safe haven for Jews is Jewish sovereignty. Gentiles ruling over Jews is self-defeating to this purpose.

It's obvious that, for example, even people "profiled for anti-Semitism" would likely repeal the Jewish symbols (such as the flag) and holidays in Israel if they ever become a majority, since they won't feel like they identify with them. That, again, defeats the purpose of having an Israel in the first place. Plenty of places in the world already that don't officially celebrate Hanukah or Sukkot.

As for Israel having more than enough native talent, couldn't any Western country likewise make a similar argument in favor of further immigration restriction? After all, the US did very well scientifically-wise and technologically-wise between 1924 and 1965, when it accepted few immigrants. In fact, this is a time that white nationalists in the US sometimes, if not often, fantasize about.
Any nation can make any argument it wants in favor of immigration restriction. If tomorrow the US announced that it doesn't allow ANY immigration for any reason period in the foreseeable future, I will be 100% fine with that.

No non-American is somehow entitled to an American citizenship just because they're well-educated. Who to let in and who to leave out is something that only the (currently) American people have the right to decide via their democratic institutions.

And given just how difficult it is to convert to Judaism, one can't exactly say that Judaism is a welcoming religion by any means.
That's correct. So?
 
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