Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

Skallagrim

Well-known member
Some general observations. In the old EU, Star Wars shows a pretty consistent cycle in the galaxy's history. It can be very easily summed up:


1) There's a divided galaxy. Regional powers coalesce and compete, leading to unification and/or wars over hegemony. Ultimately, union is achieved.

2) Considering the realities of a galaxy-spanning, multi-species polity, this union has to be dramatically decentralist to function in a way that satisfies the bulk of the populace. (If the union too centralist, dissent simply causes the previous phase of conflict to erupt again, until a unity that can count of clear majority support across the galaxy is achieved.)

3) However, decentralism has its weaknesses. Excesses abound in regions the central government cannot effectively control, creating dissatisfaction. The lack of a strong regime eventually causes a too-weak military as well (evenif this was not initially the case; a weak regime cannot endlessly maintain the proper application of political force that the maintanance of a strong military demands).

4) A contender for power arises. Either an external entity (e.g. Sith invasion) or an internal one (e.g. Palpatine taking over) makes a play for power, effectively using the advantages of centralisation to succeed. Sometimes, both happen in the same era, because one inspires the other. (For instance: Mandalorians invade the complacent Republic, which impels Revan to become a despotic leader figure.)

5) Because, as already noted, centralism on a galactic scale inherently sparks wide-spread opposition on very short notice, galaxy-spanning despotic empires tend to be relatively short-lived. Some kind of coalition arises to overthrow them.

6) Said coalition is inherently anti-centralist. This can lead to the deliberate re-establishment of an explicitly decentralist galactic order. Given the unpleasant memory of the recent centralist tyranny, this eventually works, but won't work forever. We go back to point (2). It can also lead to a fracturing of the galactic order, particularly if the coalition of rebels is only united by the common foe, or if the devastation is particularly dire (to the extent that re-establishing galactic union is simply too difficult to manage). We go back to point (1).


That's it. That's galactic history. Which is also why Star Wars is actually fairly realistic (except it goes back to the stand-by of point (2) too often, while we should see periods of disunity and fracturing more often). This is actually how it would go. But anyway... this tells us precisely what we may expect of the future, in-universe. We have arrived at point (6), after the period of despotism and rebellion.

The old EU persistently suggests that we just go back to point (2). The Empire, the Vong, the One Sith... no matter. Back to stand-by. I have my doubts about the realism of that. Realistically, Legacy would result in a fractured galaxy. You can't just keep throwing crises at the setting and still insist that everything goes "back to normal" afterwards. At some point, "normal" ceases to apply, and what's when the status quo just breaks down. Dark age inbound!

The new continuity has told us much less about 'the future', but we may glean that the New Republic is much more of a basket-case than in the old EU, while the success of the First Order is very telling in itself. Add Palpatine's last bout of planet-destroying and war-mongering, and I'm pretty sure that the galaxy is a fractured mess after the sequels. Dark age inbound!
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Alright, so if you want a baseline SW plot, maybe have it take place after this decentralized time. Right on the cusp when people either want to maintain the status quo (decentralization) while others want to change it (centralization.)

A conflict could be kicked off by the appearance of a new nation, which is growing more powerful than its neighbors and beginning to expand. If you want to make it more unique, maybe make it a hegemony. Doesn't outright take over new systems and territory, but uses military, economic, and political power to exert control over weaker neighbors. These neighbors are allowed to maintain nominal autonomy, in exchange for paying a tribute of some kind. It might give them a different feel than the Empire while allowing them to fill much of the same roles.

Other nations nearby don't like this, so form an alliance to maintain their autonomy. However, while the alliance may deter the new hegemony, there can be conflicts inside the alliance over how much they should centralize. If they centralize, they might gain enough power to seriously challenge the hegemony - but that would also entail a loss of autonomy, which was what they were fighting against in the first place.

For your protagonists, SW tends to be pretty Black-and-White in outlook. They're either going to be all fighting for the alliance (or if you want to twist it, the hegemony.) The flaws of the bad guys should be accented here, and the virtues of the good guys highlighted to give a sense of why the protagonists are fighting. If you want the conflict to be more grey on gray, add protagonists/sympathetic characters to either side and split the flaws/virtues more evenly.

That's a good suggestion. And I do like the idea of a grayer moral framework receiving attention at times.

However, perhaps I should've clarified earlier and stated that it's more of a world-building project than a story line with a significant endgame. Maybe something of a cross between Orion's Arm and an in-universe book on galactic history, though that doesn't convey the most precise idea of what I mean. I'm thinking of featuring some original characters from time to time, but mostly in short stories that take place within the broader setting; they won't be the centerpieces around which the writing revolves.

So while much what my explore probably will take place during the whole "Wild West" phase of galactic history, the idea that a powerful centralist is slowly gestating could become a recurring theme that people within the setting are wise to. Most of them may not be enthusiastic about an ever-strengthening galactic government--or even government at all, for that matter!--but there's a chance that once their generation is mostly gone, their grandchildren and great-grandchildren will be more receptive. In the meantime, though, entropy is progressively seeping into their way of life. Specifically the kind that'd come with a blaster-slinging, laissez-faire pioneer's paradise like the Galaxy at this point in time.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
The new continuity has told us much less about 'the future', but we may glean that the New Republic is much more of a basket-case than in the old EU, while the success of the First Order is very telling in itself. Add Palpatine's last bout of planet-destroying and war-mongering, and I'm pretty sure that the galaxy is a fractured mess after the sequels. Dark age inbound!

I would argue that the New Republic of the old EU was only successful at remaining in power as a strong, centralized government through extensive offscreen act-of-plotium, whereas the "more basket case" New Republic of the new Disney Canon is more realistically limited. If nothing else, the New Republic was supposed to be restoring the Old Republic, which was substantially less centralized than the Empire; but the political aspects of the Republic were always largely offscreen so we never actually see this divestment of power.

Edit: If you go with a "cynically realistic" take on the EU, you can say that the New Republic tacitly never actually divesting the centralized powers of the Empire was a huge part of why Garm Bel Iblis canonically remained estranged from it, over and above his canonical distrust of Mon Mothma. It always annoyed me that this was never really properly addressed in the EU.

But the bigger unaddressed issue, in both the EU and the new canon, is that the Outer Rim systems *still aren't represented* in any meaningful way among the leadership cadre of the Alliance/New Republic. The New Republic is really just begging for a repeat of the Separatist Crisis since they restored the Republic without ever *actually addressing the legitimate complaints of the outer worlds*.
 
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Earl

Well-known member
The new continuity has told us much less about 'the future', but we may glean that the New Republic is much more of a basket-case than in the old EU, while the success of the First Order is very telling in itself. Add Palpatine's last bout of planet-destroying and war-mongering, and I'm pretty sure that the galaxy is a fractured mess after the sequels. Dark age inbound!
Good people of the Galaxy, Never fear! We have Rey and Finn to save us! they will reform the jedi order and make the 12 people in the resistance buil....Oh dear. We really are fucked.

SIncerely though that is one thing which I feel is sad, as I just cannot see anyone actually maanging to rebuild the Jedi Order, certainly not those two empty husks, thus leaving the Galaxy's Force sensitives all on their own... Not only does this reenforce the tragedy of 66 (Palpy probably cackles at having manged to win out in at least one respect) but can lead to dangerous consuquences. Mainly: A generation of war and fighting may not exactly be the best suited to the light side...
 

Urabrask Revealed

Let them go.
Founder
Jay-sus, not this horse manure again. What exactly does Star Wars have left once you remove anything relating to the Force? A radically different setting.

Besides, the Jedi distinguished themselves over and over again in defense and service to the Republic, they were a netgood. Ahsoka is "just" being traumtized by the fall of her former master.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
Some general observations. In the old EU, Star Wars shows a pretty consistent cycle in the galaxy's history. It can be very easily summed up:


1) There's a divided galaxy. Regional powers coalesce and compete, leading to unification and/or wars over hegemony. Ultimately, union is achieved.

2) Considering the realities of a galaxy-spanning, multi-species polity, this union has to be dramatically decentralist to function in a way that satisfies the bulk of the populace. (If the union too centralist, dissent simply causes the previous phase of conflict to erupt again, until a unity that can count of clear majority support across the galaxy is achieved.)

3) However, decentralism has its weaknesses. Excesses abound in regions the central government cannot effectively control, creating dissatisfaction. The lack of a strong regime eventually causes a too-weak military as well (evenif this was not initially the case; a weak regime cannot endlessly maintain the proper application of political force that the maintanance of a strong military demands).

4) A contender for power arises. Either an external entity (e.g. Sith invasion) or an internal one (e.g. Palpatine taking over) makes a play for power, effectively using the advantages of centralisation to succeed. Sometimes, both happen in the same era, because one inspires the other. (For instance: Mandalorians invade the complacent Republic, which impels Revan to become a despotic leader figure.)

5) Because, as already noted, centralism on a galactic scale inherently sparks wide-spread opposition on very short notice, galaxy-spanning despotic empires tend to be relatively short-lived. Some kind of coalition arises to overthrow them.

6) Said coalition is inherently anti-centralist. This can lead to the deliberate re-establishment of an explicitly decentralist galactic order. Given the unpleasant memory of the recent centralist tyranny, this eventually works, but won't work forever. We go back to point (2). It can also lead to a fracturing of the galactic order, particularly if the coalition of rebels is only united by the common foe, or if the devastation is particularly dire (to the extent that re-establishing galactic union is simply too difficult to manage). We go back to point (1).


That's it. That's galactic history. Which is also why Star Wars is actually fairly realistic (except it goes back to the stand-by of point (2) too often, while we should see periods of disunity and fracturing more often). This is actually how it would go. But anyway... this tells us precisely what we may expect of the future, in-universe. We have arrived at point (6), after the period of despotism and rebellion.

The old EU persistently suggests that we just go back to point (2). The Empire, the Vong, the One Sith... no matter. Back to stand-by. I have my doubts about the realism of that. Realistically, Legacy would result in a fractured galaxy. You can't just keep throwing crises at the setting and still insist that everything goes "back to normal" afterwards. At some point, "normal" ceases to apply, and what's when the status quo just breaks down. Dark age inbound!

The new continuity has told us much less about 'the future', but we may glean that the New Republic is much more of a basket-case than in the old EU, while the success of the First Order is very telling in itself. Add Palpatine's last bout of planet-destroying and war-mongering, and I'm pretty sure that the galaxy is a fractured mess after the sequels. Dark age inbound!
No; I'm betting they'll just have a new resistance fighting a Second Order, then another resistance fighting a Third Order, and so on and so forth until the end of time. Stop trying to apply logic to the sequels; because the people who made them clearly never did.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
No; I'm betting they'll just have a new resistance fighting a Second Order, then another resistance fighting a Third Order, and so on and so forth until the end of time. Stop trying to apply logic to the sequels; because the people who made them clearly never did.

I would argue that the First Order really did make sense; Imperial hardliners retreating to the Outer Rim systems that the New Republic claimed sovereignty over but refused to actually govern just like the Old Republic makes a lot of sense, since the New Republic was ultimately all about the political elite of the Old Republic gleefully restoring the "good old" corruption, complacency, and laziness.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Besides, the Jedi distinguished themselves over and over again in defense and service to the Republic, they were a netgood. Ahsoka is "just" being traumtized by the fall of her former master.

Yes and no. The Jedi distinguished themselves over and over again on the individual scale, but on the collective historical scale, the Jedi were also directly or indirectly responsible for pretty much every single major war in the entire history of the Galaxy Far, Far Away.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
Blaming the Jedi for the Sith seems like a non-starter.

There is a Force. You can't do anything about it. If people use the Force without training they can likely become super powerful evil badasses and if they get together they can fuck over the galaxy.

Saying no more Jedi isn't a good solution. Jedi are apparently the best solution to help counter the Dark Side. Without the
Jedi the Sith would be bending galactic civilization over the furniture for millennia now.

People might not like it but since the Force is a thing, too bad. I suppose you could try to euthanize and genocide force sensitives as babies but the galaxy is a big place.

The bottom line is the Jedi have historically been a Force (Hurr Hurr) for good. And in recent memory helped preside over a literal thousand years of (general) peace before the Clone Wars. If the Jedi were disbanded before then... The Force and the Dark Side would still be a thing and the Republic would have no defense against it on the battlefield or in the seats of power.

The Jedi are a monastic sect of superhuman warriors who have thankfully been dedicated to peace and being apolitical for most of its existence. The galaxy should be thankful for their existence and general ethos and legacy.
 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
Blaming the Jedi for the Sith seems like a non-starter.

There is a Force. You can't do anything about it. If people use the Force without training they can likely become super powerful evil badasses and if they get together they can fuck over the galaxy.

Saying no more Jedi isn't a good solution. Jedi are apparently the best solution to help counter the Dark Side. Without the
Jedi the Sith would be bending galactic civilization over the furniture for millennia now.

People might not like it but since the Force is a thing, too bad. I suppose you could try to euthanize and genocide force sensitives as babies but the galaxy is a big place.

The bottom line is the Jedi have historically been a Force (Hurr Hurr) for good. And in recent memory helped preside over a literal thousand years of (general) peace before the Clone Wars. If the Jedi were disbanded before then... The Force and the Dark Side would still be a thing and the Republic would have no defense against it on the battlefield or in the seats of power.

The Jedi are a monastic sect of superhuman warriors who have thankfully been dedicated to peace and being apolitical for most of its existence. The galaxy should be thankful for their existence and general ethos and legacy.
That is not exactly true. If they Darkside would become prominent the Force itself would literally fubar them. There have been from time to time creatures created by the force itself to deal with an imbalance in the Force. It would happen again.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
That is not exactly true. If they Darkside would become prominent the Force itself would literally fubar them. There have been from time to time creatures created by the force itself to deal with an imbalance in the Force. It would happen again.

Yeah but that's a pretty derpy plot device. :p
 
Blaming the Jedi for the Sith seems like a non-starter.

There is a Force. You can't do anything about it. If people use the Force without training they can likely become super powerful evil badasses and if they get together they can fuck over the galaxy.

Saying no more Jedi isn't a good solution. Jedi are apparently the best solution to help counter the Dark Side. Without the
Jedi the Sith would be bending galactic civilization over the furniture for millennia now.

People might not like it but since the Force is a thing, too bad. I suppose you could try to euthanize and genocide force sensitives as babies but the galaxy is a big place.

The bottom line is the Jedi have historically been a Force (Hurr Hurr) for good. And in recent memory helped preside over a literal thousand years of (general) peace before the Clone Wars. If the Jedi were disbanded before then... The Force and the Dark Side would still be a thing and the Republic would have no defense against it on the battlefield or in the seats of power.

The Jedi are a monastic sect of superhuman warriors who have thankfully been dedicated to peace and being apolitical for most of its existence. The galaxy should be thankful for their existence and general ethos and legacy.

I'm not talking about getting rid of Jedi or the force. I'm talking getting rid of midi-clorians. The force surrounds all living things, yet 99% of the galaxy doesin't seem to have to praticing buddast or risk becoming genocidal maniacs. You'd think at some point someone somewhere would see a connection and react accordingly. The force can not be destroyed, but it does seem to indicate that force manifestations can.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
The Empire was always going to have its staunchest loyalists in the shitholes of the Galaxy.

The Imperial Remnant and later Fel Empire are a great example thereof.

But the First Order would be hated even more, due to their construction of fleets that serve no purpose at costs that bleed planets dry.
 
D

Deleted member 88

Guest
For the record, I'm on the side of absolutely rejoicing at the elimination of the entire NJO, and I sincerely hope that it becomes outright memory holed with *absolutely no* elements ever brought back in any way, shape, or form.
I'm precisely the opposite, I'm a massive NJO fan. Its probably the richest part of SW story and theme wise. Much better than the ST could ever hope to be.
I would argue that the New Republic of the old EU was only successful at remaining in power as a strong, centralized government through extensive offscreen act-of-plotium, whereas the "more basket case" New Republic of the new Disney Canon is more realistically limited. If nothing else, the New Republic was supposed to be restoring the Old Republic, which was substantially less centralized than the Empire; but the political aspects of the Republic were always largely offscreen so we never actually see this divestment of power.
Your knowledge of the EU is fantastically limited, because that is simply not true at all.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
Mon Mothma and her deep state antics among other things spring to mind.

Everyone remembers Borsk Fray'lar but never the underhandedness and sheer political skill of the surviving members of the delegation of 2,000. Nor guys like Admiral Nantz who was just as good if not better than Akbar but were less politically astute.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik

A moment of silence was held on Dromund Kaas in memory of David Prowse before the typical descent into a Dark Side dance party replete with lightsaber flourishes and Sith lightning displays and remembering that No one is ever really gone.

 
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D

Deleted member 88

Guest
The New Republic in the NJO was on the cusp of total collapse after the fall of Coruscant. It split into its own civil war while fighting a civil war in Legacy of the Force.

It was ruled by a triumvirate and actually lost against the Felpire and the Sith, while fighting a secessionist movement at the same time.

The NR had loads of difficulties as a government.

Difficulties we are shown, or in Legacy's case can glean from what we are told.
A moment of silence was held on Dromund Kaas in memory of David Prowse before the typical descent into a Dark Side dance party replete with lightsaber flourishes and Sith lightning displays and remembering that No one is ever really gone.
Worthy Sith Lords are buried in the Valley of the Sith Lords on Korriban, and there they remain forever, so a salute is in order for Mr. Prowse.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
I would argue that the First Order really did make sense; Imperial hardliners retreating to the Outer Rim systems that the New Republic claimed sovereignty over but refused to actually govern just like the Old Republic makes a lot of sense, since the New Republic was ultimately all about the political elite of the Old Republic gleefully restoring the "good old" corruption, complacency, and laziness.

The idea of the FO made sense. How it was presented in the latter two-thirds of the ST did not.
 
D

Deleted member 88

Guest
The FO is extremely inconsistent.

Its the biggest threat evarr!, basically Nazis in Argentina/Antarctica with super tech, or its just an edgier empire LARP.

It is neither intimidating nor does it comment on neofascist movements in a particularly interesting or compelling way either. It tries to argue, "this isn't supposed to be intimidating, its just kids pretending to be villains", and then "they've taken over the galaxy how will our heroes win?"

Hux is so hammy I outright cringed in theatres, and Phasma is lame and boring.

I would take Waru any day over this joke of an antagonist.
 

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