Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[Lord Sovereign]

Imma strongly advise you go grab a pillow, because you'll probably want to scream into it when you read the rest of this post.



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According to Disney Canon there was at least one Star Destroyer just off screen we couldn't see helping to kill the Rebel fighters, possibly several.

If the DS-1 had a navy escort, the Rebels would have just tried to run. There'd be no way in hell that they could get close enough to attack the main station, let alone the thermal exhaust port. Point defence and picket squadrons would slag them in short order.

The Death Star was lost as much from Tarkin's arrogance as Rebel tenacity.

Then again, this is Disney. The same company that seems to think twenty four fighters and bombers can take on eight Imperial Star Destroyers. Yes, the so called battle of Lothal makes me irrationally angry, how did you tell?

 

[ShadowArxxy]

The Death Star was lost as much from Tarkin's arrogance as Rebel tenacity.

I would argue that this was clear-cut from ANH all by itself. The Death Star is *huge* and clearly has room for far, far more than eight TIE Fighters and one TIE Advanced. It was therefore self-evident that only Vader's personal squadron launched on his command to "get the crews to their fighters", with Tarkin being so freaking arrogant that he didn't want to bother launching any of the station's parasite complement because it would dilute the invincible image of his glorious project.

 

[Zachowon]

Which they definitely compensated for eith DS2

 

[ShadowArxxy]

I mean, just imagine the "next universe over" where Tarkin is just a little bit less arrogant:

"Orbiting the planet at maximum velocity. The moon with the Rebel base will be in range in thirty minutes."

"Commander, deploy ten TIE squadrons for combat space patrol. That should ensure any attempt at a counter-attack will be swept aside."

 

[BlackDragon98]

Which they definitely compensated for eith DS2

Which ironically turned out to be it's doom.
Executor crashing into the Death Star 2.0

 

[Bear Ribs]

Okay, so it is actually canonically made explicitly for the rebels then. The big question though isn't "how did the Rebels get the plans for the X-Wing" it's "how did the Rebels get or make the actual physical X-Wings?"

The Rebels cartoon has an episode where Princess Leia shows up with a convoy of surprisingly well armed "Humanitarian aid" ships and is, of course, deeply surprised when Rebels steal them from her. I imagine similar stunts happened several times with various ships to get their fleet started.

I'm under the impression that the rebellion in general didn't kick it into high gear and start doing any real attacks until a fear years before Yavin. The first fifteen or so look to me like it was Mon Monthma and Bail Organa plotting and recruiting a few critical members like Ahsoka. The rest of the galaxy was getting worse and worse but large numbers of people didn't snap and start blowing up space stations until the Empire had gotten really bad and then the avalanche started.

 

[BlackDragon98]

The Rebels cartoon has an episode where Princess Leia shows up with a convoy of surprisingly well armed "Humanitarian aid" ships and is, of course, deeply surprised when Rebels steal them from her. I imagine similar stunts happened several times with various ships to get their fleet started.

I'm under the impression that the rebellion in general didn't kick it into high gear and start doing any real attacks until a fear years before Yavin. The first fifteen or so look to me like it was Mon Monthma and Bail Organa plotting and recruiting a few critical members like Ahsoka. The rest of the galaxy was getting worse and worse but large numbers of people didn't snap and start blowing up space stations until the Empire had gotten really bad and then the avalanche started.

One of the reasons why the rebellion was so successful was because it's best personnel were former Imperials who had defected and joined them for whatever reason.
Crix Madine was the commander of the Imperial Storm Commandos, Bigg Darklighter (Luke's buddy killed at DS1) was an Imperial officer, and there are more I can't remember.
Also, everyone forgets that Han Solo was a distinguished Imperial officer who was cashiered for saving Chewie (who was then a slave of the Empire).

Edit: The Tarkin family was ironically full of anti-Imperials. Rivoche Tarkin, Wilhuff's niece, was a Rebel sympathizer who send a lot of helpful intel their way.
And his own son Garoche Tarkin was so disgusted with the Empire's crimes he defect and joined the Atoan rebels, thus making him one of the first Rebels.

 

[Knowledgeispower]

As related to Tarkin's son the Emperor had Vader off him and blamed the Rebels for it(since Garoche didn't openly declare that he was rebelling and hence why nobody who wasn't on the ground would know the truth and only Vader coincidentally survived the mission on either side) in order to fully cement Tarkin's loyalties to the Empire as he cared deeply about his son and would want to avenge him

 

[Zyobot]

So, I'm curious as to the true nature of the Mortis Gods? My understanding is that they're regarded as embodiments of different aspects of the Force, but I'm less certain. I ask, because I have the rudiments of a fan project in which Jedi scholars have competing theories about them.

One theory I've thought about featuring is the Mortis Gods as sentient "conduits" of whatever Force aspect they were aligned with, but not true embodiments. The most powerful conduits ever recorded, but conduits nonetheless. The Light Side, Dark Side, and the importance of the Balance outlived them when they perished, so I'm not sure they and their aspects were one and the same being.

Another I've considered is that they could've been the Force taking on three separate "forms" that mortal minds could wrap their heads around, with the events on Mortis--at least as Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Ahsoka perceived them--being massive "dumbing-downs", so that they had something to make heads or tails of. But now I'm probably stretching things somewhat.

 

[Bear Ribs]

So, I'm curious as to the true nature of the Mortis Gods? My understanding is that they're regarded as embodiments of different aspects of the Force, but I'm less certain. I ask, because I have the rudiments of a fan project in which Jedi scholars have competing theories about them.

One theory I've thought about featuring is the Mortis Gods as sentient "conduits" of whatever Force aspect they were aligned with, but not true embodiments. The most powerful conduits ever recorded, but conduits nonetheless. The Light Side, Dark Side, and the importance of the Balance outlived them when they perished, so I'm not sure they and their aspects were one and the same being.

Another I've considered is that they could've been the Force taking on three separate "forms" that mortal minds could wrap their heads around, with the events on Mortis--at least as Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Ahsoka perceived them--being massive "dumbing-downs", so that they had something to make heads or tails of. But now I'm probably stretching things somewhat.

In Legends they were the last three Celestials, a race that were ancient precursors to the Rakata, who were themselves ancient precursors to the rest of the galaxy. They built a lot of the weird artifacts and kept an eldritch horror contained, which caused some small amount of trouble when they died and she escaped.

In Disney canon they have the much more imaginative name of "Force-Wielders" and no real backstory or reason for existing.

 

[BlackDragon98]

In Legends they were the last three Celestials, a race that were ancient precursors to the Rakata, who were themselves ancient precursors to the rest of the galaxy. They built a lot of the weird artifacts and kept an eldritch horror contained, which caused some small amount of trouble when they died and she escaped.

You'd think that Anakin, Obi-Wan, or Ashoka would wonder why there's no Mother.

 

[Zyobot]

In Legends they were the last three Celestials, a race that were ancient precursors to the Rakata, who were themselves ancient precursors to the rest of the galaxy. They built a lot of the weird artifacts and kept an eldritch horror contained, which caused some small amount of trouble when they died and she escaped.

In Disney canon they have the much more imaginative name of "Force-Wielders" and no real backstory or reason for existing.

I'm aware. However, I don't think that makes it mutually exclusive with them also being powerful conduits of the Force, rather than true embodiments.

Them being either Celestials or Force-wielders doesn’t elucidate much beyond them being mysterious, godlike entities aligned with the Light, the Dark, and the Balance. Which brings us right back to square one, and misses the point of discussing what their true role and relation to the Force is.

I still suggest they were exceedingly powerful conduits given form and sentience, but not quite representations who were truly synonymous with the Force. If this guess holds water, that makes me wonder what actual, self-aware Force embodiments would be like?

I’m brainstorming some ideas as is, but that leads us into a different direction. Perhaps I’ll elaborate more later.

You'd think that Anakin, Obi-Wan, or Ashoka would wonder why there's no Mother.

Yeah, that’s quite a miss. I actually wonder what Canon’s answer to this must be. Whether Disney will canonize Abeloth or not, I couldn’t tell you.

 

[BlackDragon98]

Yeah, that’s quite a miss. I actually wonder what Canon’s answer to this must be. Whether Disney will canonize Abeloth or not, I couldn’t tell you.

The reason why it was glossed over was because Abeloth wouldn't exactly be family friendly.

 

[Zyobot]

The reason why it was glossed over was because Abeloth wouldn't exactly be family friendly.

Fair point. Although, it’s still worth wondering whether the Jedi trio ever pondered that off-screen. It seems entirely logical to me that they would, even if actual references to Abeloth never made it into the script.

 

[DarthOne]

Fair point. Although, it’s still worth wondering whether the Jedi trio ever pondered that off-screen. It seems entirely logical to me that they would, even if actual references to Abeloth never made it into the script.

Well, Abeloth being the Mother was something that was only developed after the fact.

 

[LindyAF]

The Mortis gods were just an incredibly dumb idea in general, and ought to have been cut.

 

[DarthOne]

The Mortis gods were just an incredibly dumb idea in general, and ought to have been cut.

Agreed. But then, I think that about 90% of TCW. Should have stuck with the original idea and just had Ashoka being the padawan of another Jedi Master and doing their one thing during the Clone Wars.

Thanks a lot Lucas

 

[LindyAF]

I disagree about most of The Clone Wars. They contradict Legends & there shouldn't have been an attempt to incorporate them into it, but they're mostly fine and don't really have any huge issues that weren't already endemic to the PT and Legends. I'd say they arguably do a better job than the PT at a lot of it's stuff, although they admittedly had a bit of a rough start.

The Mortis gods were exceptionally awful worldbuilding.

 

[Bear Ribs]

I agree on the Ones as well, I'm not fond of them and I don't see what some quasi-deities add to Star Wars. or how they fit into it's existing mythology. However I think Clone Wars did a spectacular job of making Anakin into a genuinely flawed hero, and salvaged much of the prequel trilogy. He was just a whiny entitled brat in Revenge of the Sith but Clones Wars salvaged that are turned it around, where Anakin really had run the race an done a great job of showing he was ready to be a master and the Council were the ones who screwed it up for him and then doubled down and refused him master status over their own screwup.

I will say I can see why there was no Mother. You've got the Light Side, Dark Side, and Balance in the force represented by the three and you'd have to think of a fourth state of force being to cover her, which isn't easy and will seem superfluous.

Additionally the arc needed to end with all of the Ones dead else the sheer amount of loose ends as to why the impossibly powerful force-users hadn't decided to ever do anything would be insane. Granted given that they would be at least 35,000 years old, you still have the question of why they hadn't ever decided to do anything but it's less noticeable there.

Why is that significant? Because having a guy murder his mother in an ostensibly kid's show on TV would.... probably not be pleasing to the parents of the audience.

 

[DarthOne]

I disagree about most of The Clone Wars. They contradict Legends & there shouldn't have been an attempt to incorporate them into it, but they're mostly fine and don't really have any huge issues that weren't already endemic to the PT and Legends. I'd say they arguably do a better job than the PT at a lot of it's stuff, although they admittedly had a bit of a rough start.

The Mortis gods were exceptionally awful worldbuilding.

To which I say; the Clone Wars era comics and stories already did that before TCW came along.

All TCW did was make Anakin bland, Obi-Wan nearly constantly sarcastic, Grevious into a complete failure and Dooku into a cardboard cut out.