Serious question about anti-Semitism.

[Big Steve]

On the issue of Jewish banking in the middle ages and onward, do recall that it was one of the few occupations Christians allowed. There were a whole host of occupations effectively barred to Jews because being a Christian was a prerequisite to membership in the guilds that controlled said occupations.

It's not just a case of "The Jews' religion allowed them to charge interest!", it was a case of "Jews weren't allowed to do much of anything, and banking was one activity they weren't barred from that they could do profitably".

Also, Nitramy?

Am I the only one who hates Hitler because he basically gave away a Victim Card(tm) with unlimited withdrawals, and a bonus Mutual Collective Guilt Fund to boot?

I... I can't... of all the reasons to despise that malignant pustule on the asscheek of Mankind's collective memory, why does that even matter? This is a man who caused the torture and murder, the actual industrial extermination, of millions of people. Who waged a war that spread devastation from Norway to Ethiopia and from the banks of the Volga to the Atlantic! Who oppressed entire nations in the name of his toxic, intellectually and spiritually bankrupt ideology.

Why the hell would you hate him for something like that?! Compared to all of the other, more worthy reasons to hate the bastard?!

Actually, more to the point, the very question betrays a mindset that I find as repugnant as I find it ridiculous!

I'll try to word my explanation as well as I can, so expect some things that I need to clarify later.

What I meant to say was that now, any criticism is silenced by playing the victim card. Or worse, appealing to ancestor guilt.

Hitler's actions regarding the Jewish people is perhaps the biggest example of wanting to do one thing and the opposite thing ends up happening.

Well gee, when a large chunk of your population gets sent to death factories, it kinda leaves a mark on the collective psyche.

This sounds like you're whining that you can't criticize DA JOOS because that bad ol' Hitler murdered so many of them and it makes you look bad. (And I say that without having read much of the thread.)

 

[Nitramy]

Why the hell would you hate him for something like that?! Compared to all of the other, more worthy reasons to hate the bastard?!
This sounds like you're whining that you can't criticize DA JOOS because that bad ol' Hitler murdered so many of them and it makes you look bad. (And I say that without having read much of the thread.)

It's also "aside from all the other stupid shit he pulled", this is just one reason out of many. Apologies if I made an assumption from common knowledge (my take on this is "Hitler is evil because reasons A, B, C, D, E and F! Why are you talking about reason P like it's the only one?" without asking "so you DON'T hate Hitler because reasons A, B, C, D, E, and/or F", when that's already been ingrained in the collective psyche).

Also because ideological possession is a thing, and just because they got a victim card with unlimited overdraw doesn't mean they can't be called out on it. Like... FUCK, we have Germans bending over and taking jihadi schlongs up their tailpipe because of the victim card and collective guilt mutual fund being used non-fucking-stop. And guess who enabled this "multiculturalism" "intersectional" "Frankfurt school" garbage?

Yeah.

(My take on this is, unless we can know for certain how far along ideology has possessed people, we really can't say for sure.)

(And once again, apologies for assuming that everyone hated Hitler for the exact same reasons, I just had one more reason to throw into the fire than most.)

 

[LordSunhawk]

Your friendly neighborhood Boot here! The Boot is watching this thread carefully, and while the Boot is unhappy with the direction of things, the Boot will also note that nothing has quite violated the rules while dancing on the edge of 2c.

@Nitramy , please be careful with your phrasing. Anti-Semitism is still a red line for many people and can draw strong reactions to the perception of same. The Boot knows you come from a different cultural context, but urges you to take the time to be as clear in your points as you can be. Those criticizing him, the Boot urges you to remember to engage as civilly as possible. This thread is under the laces of the Boot and is being watched.

The Boot would remind all posters of the terms of service you agreed to on the site, specifically 3m, do not be amongst the small sample of One (1) individual who tested that. However, the Boot will also remind people that so far in this thread nobody has crossed that line. If you disagree with a posters point, please do so openly and civilly. The Boot is encouraged that so far people are doing so, the Boot hopes that this continues.

 

[Nitramy]

Given the recent Nick Cannon bullshit, I have to necro this topic and ask an important question.

Where do we draw the line between criticism of Jewish power and influence and actual anti-Semitism?

Because to me, sometimes the former is interpreted as the latter.

 

[Witteric of the West]

Where do we draw the line between criticism of Jewish power and influence and actual anti-Semitism?

I mean...

"Jews" in power tend to be the most assimilated ones, who are Jews in name only and only when it's suitable for them. Or, at best, still do the religious ceremonies out of some sense of vague cultural identity (in the same way many Catholics in name only go to mass every now and then)

Assuming that "Jews" or any other ethnic group holds power and uses it in a coherent fashion is... eh, liable to be very wrong. And to play right into the idea that -insert ethnic group here- is either entirely composed of the guilty, or of the innocent.

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

There is a meaningful faction of sorts inside the demographic of Judaism that preaches and practices subversive, apalling behavior, and does so more or less with impunity from any kind of "collective" accusation or push back because of the obvious implications of such.

Whether this loose movement or collection of movements represents a statistically significant portion of Jews is really impossible to say, you cant exactly poll for it, but I tend to think such bad actors are simply a degenerate fringe that has sidled it's way to prominence rather than a representative cross section.

It's easy to look at say, Hollywood, and say "wow theres a disproportionate number of Jews in power here, and Hollywood is disproportionately evil whilst being under their control, Jews are evil" but that could be misleading, Hollywood Jewish elites could very well represent an extreme concentration of statistical outliers. I.e., its not that the Jews are worse than anyone else, it's that the worst say, 1% of them have gotten together to connive and amass power between each other.

I've wondered in the past if there is something about systems constructed by leftists that selects over time for whatever unique quirks might be shared by any unusually anti-social Jews, allowing them to flourish. Because even as far back as the confederate/antebellum democrats they carved out a very comfortable ecological niche, where the average Jew was, to my understanding, looked down on.


Look, you guys have got to familiarize yourselves with the apologetics and information of the people you despise, you cant just shut your ears and say "how dare you be a nazi" when one of these little retards (not refering to present company) shows up. You have got to be able to take hard looks at very uncomfortable statistics and quotes collected by losers so that you can navigate these issues effectively when they come up.


In the end, remember that virtually every dirty stereotype and bigoted charicature actually exists, somewhere, in plurality, and while the bigot applies that standard unilaterally, telling someone they dont exist at *all* is foolish and only going to convince those that have *experienced* what you just dismissed that you are not operating in good faith.

In short, there are bad Jews, there are many bad Jews, but I do not know that there are any more of them per capita than any other group, only that some of them have been reasonably successful in networking with each other in recent history.

 

[ATP]

All nations, even tribes considered themselves "choosen people".It is normal.
And which jews ? i am not specialist,but there are at least 5 versions of jewish religion,and many more political differencies.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Where do we draw the line between criticism of Jewish power and influence and actual anti-Semitism?

Because to me, sometimes the former is interpreted as the latter.

Noam Chomsky, George Steiner, Dennis Prager, Bernie Sanders, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Kristol, Ben Bernanke and and Rahm Emanuel are all examples of Jewish power but they're all also dramatically different in their points of view, including in regards to even Zionism. Is criticizing any of them personally anti-semitism? I don't think so. Is saying Judaism a false religion or a myth anti-semitism? I don't think so.

Is stating, "Gosh... look at these eight Big Jews who are so powerful in media. This is a problem."

Maybe? Is the only reason they stand out to you because they are Jewish? I mean they are all also Americans... and White males as well. Seven of them can be considered intellectuals.

Maybe to avoid antisemitism (or charges of discrimination in general regarding any group) just be more specific and less general.

 

[Abhorsen]

Given the recent Nick Cannon bullshit, I have to necro this topic and ask an important question.

Where do we draw the line between criticism of Jewish power and influence and actual anti-Semitism?

Because to me, sometimes the former is interpreted as the latter.

A Jew in power is not 'Jewish power' anymore than Obama in power was good for 'black power' (and if you think he really helped out black America, I got a bridge to sell you). The root of all bigotry is treating an individual as a group member first. That's the first problem with this.

The second part that people don't seem to realize (on both the SJW left and the right) is that different flavors of bigotry have different ways of doing it. For example, take blackface. The reason why it is considered racist is because of minstrel shows, where white people in blackface would imitate racist caricatures of black Americans. This doesn't apply to white face, or white people dressing up like indians for halloween, or characters being cast as different races (as long as it's not black). It starts and ends (unless someone can show me solid evidence of a similar history for another group) with blackface.

In regards to Jews, saying that they controlled the banks is one of the tropes Hitler used in his rise to power. So referring back to bankers, and calling attention to their Jewishness would be antisemetic because of it's history. If you want to criticize bankers, sure, no problem. But if all you do is criticize the Jewish ones, you are using this a pretext to blame the Jews for something.

 

[Arch Dornan]

Given the recent Nick Cannon bullshit, I have to necro this topic and ask an important question.

Where do we draw the line between criticism of Jewish power and influence and actual anti-Semitism?

Because to me, sometimes the former is interpreted as the latter.

Tack it on to the small percentage of influential people of multiple ethnic and cultural backgrounds doing some shit in the world for some goal?

You just notice it more because it's in your backyard.

 

[Deleted member 88]

Alright some basic points for consideration.

Firstly Jews have historically considered themselves a people without a home, this has been true since 70 AD.

Secondly, Christian-Jewish animosity goes back at least since Paul condemned the judaizers. Jewish contempt for and hostility to Christians is documented in the New Testament, the fact that the Jews were segregated and subjected to pogroms and expulsions would at the very least leave them somewhat hostile to and fearful of the European society in which they lived. How this was expressed varied from simply not associating with non Jews to some of the more venomous things Jews wrote in say the Talmud about Jesus. (Traditional attitudes towards Jesus was that he was a false prophet and is burning in hell basically). In some Jewish writings Christianity and Europe are identified as “Edom”-a related Semitic people the descendants of Esau in the Bible, who were enemies of Judah and Israel.

Max Weber wrote that Jewish overrepresentation in radical movements was concerning in that would trigger anti Semitic backlashes which in fact it did. Many of the Bolsheviki were indeed Jewish or had at least one Jewish parent, Rosa Luxemburg was Jewish. For Europeans opposed to communism-it became very easy to associate communism with Jews, Marx was a Jew as well.

Jewish attraction to communism could easily and was easily seen as being a Jewish plot against Europe/Christianity/the traditional order.

Jews do have a large presence in the media, Hollywood, and in finance.

Anti semites would argue that these Jews achieve this via networking and in group nepotism not due to their intelligence and merit. And they consciously or unconsciously support Jewish interests which are by definition against the society they inhabit.

Essentially the core of modern white nationalism/far right politics with regards to Jews is the belief in Jewish enmity towards Europeans and European civilization, or at least built in group behavior that leads to subverting or weakening said society. Even if they aren’t cackling in a back room. The argument goes Jews are basically a biological in group with collective interests and behavior and so they promote subversive causes by nature if not conspiracy. Though some would argue for that or both.

Kevin Macdonald a major white nationalist has argued this.

Whether this is true or not is obviously going to be hotly contested.

For my part, I lack a strong opinion on the issue. I don’t feel discussing say Jewish representation in communist movements or LGBT support or the like should be taboo. Why do these causes attract them? What at the social consequences of Jewish support for modern progressivism? I think we can ask questions like that, that don’t end up with “gas the kikes!”. Which I am obviously not in favor of.

Those who are WNs/Neo Nazis would advocate everything from expulsion or compelling all Jews to make Aliyah, or well doing what Hitler did.

Which is obviously immoral and wrong.

 

[Arch Dornan]

Jews do have a large presence in the media, Hollywood, and in finance.

Anti semites would argue that these Jews achieve this via networking and in group nepotism not due to their intelligence and merit. And they consciously or unconsciously support Jewish interests which are by definition against the society they inhabit.

I wonder about that in the sense of the minority ever since Nick Cannon has been huffing his own melanin supremacist farts but got a reminder of who runs the show he once worked in.

Then there's the Chinese perception from other neighboring Asian countries which gets me wondering about this phobia the fear against the "other" of certain people living in society.

 

[Deleted member 88]

I mean him being chastised/fired doesn’t do anything but confirm for people already inclined to see Jewish malevolence or rule in the media.

Because after all you can call Whites subhuman and savages but criticize the Jews and your making apologies if you want to keep your job.

White Nationalists and the like online had a field day with this if you can imagine it.

It’s definitely not a good look.

 

[Arch Dornan]

I mean him being chastised/fired doesn’t do anything but confirm for people already inclined to see Jewish malevolence or rule in the media.

Because after all you can call Whites subhuman and savages but criticize the Jews and your making apologies if you want to keep your job.

White Nationalists and the like online had a field day with this if you can imagine it.

It’s definitely not a good look.

It definitely did it. I'm not sure what to think on that.

 

[GoldRanger]

Given the recent Nick Cannon bullshit, I have to necro this topic and ask an important question.

Where do we draw the line between criticism of Jewish power and influence and actual anti-Semitism?

Because to me, sometimes the former is interpreted as the latter.

What does "Jewish power" mean? Any time a person who has succeeded in life and attained power, who also happens to be Jewish, that's "Jewish power"? Do you also consider, say, "Irish Power" behind every successful Irish person?

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

Maybe? Is the only reason they stand out to you because they are Jewish? I mean they are all also Americans... and White males as well. Seven of them can be considered intellectuals.

Are Semites Caucasian?

 

[JagerIV]

What does "Jewish power" mean? Any time a person who has succeeded in life and attained power, who also happens to be Jewish, that's "Jewish power"? Do you also consider, say, "Irish Power" behind every successful Irish person?

Well, when it's wielded in the name of irishness, of course. That Irish mayor of Boston who explicitly sought to drive out Anglos and give jobs to irshmen, and who latter directed Boston government funds to the IRA as part of Irish nationalism to liberate irreland can, I think reasonbly, be said to wield Irish power.

Would you say the ADL could, reasonably, be called a manifestation of Jewish power, like the IRA was a manifestation of Irish power?

 

[GoldRanger]

Well, when it's wielded in the name of irishness, of course. That Irish mayor of Boston who explicitly sought to drive out Anglos and give jobs to irshmen, and who latter directed Boston government funds to the IRA as part of Irish nationalism to liberate irreland can, I think reasonbly, be said to wield Irish power.

Would you say the ADL could, reasonably, be called a manifestation of Jewish power, like the IRA was a manifestation of Irish power?

It seems like some people think that everything a Jew with a bit of power does must be in the name of Judaism or for the benefit of Jews. I don't see the evidence for that.

Yeah there are Jewish groups that advocate for Jewish crap, same as there are for any other group. So? Are they somehow fundamentally different?

 

[CarlManvers2019]

It seems like some people think that everything a Jew with a bit of power does must be in the name of Judaism or for the benefit of Jews. I don't see the evidence for that.

Yeah there are Jewish groups that advocate for Jewish crap, same as there are for any other group. So? Are they somehow fundamentally different?

I think the only thing they have in common with the rest of the Jewish population is having and maybe being good with money, the latter may not even be present due to inheritance and probably deciding that SJW trends are smart

 

[Terthna]

Well, when it's wielded in the name of irishness, of course. That Irish mayor of Boston who explicitly sought to drive out Anglos and give jobs to irshmen, and who latter directed Boston government funds to the IRA as part of Irish nationalism to liberate irreland can, I think reasonbly, be said to wield Irish power.

Would you say the ADL could, reasonably, be called a manifestation of Jewish power, like the IRA was a manifestation of Irish power?

The ADL isn't a paramilitary organization like the IRA, with a history of committing terroristic acts (including outright killing people) in an attempt to achieve its goals. There's simply no comparison between the two organizations.