Russian-Ukrainian-Polish Eternal Friendship Thread

Marduk

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A counter invasion into Ukraine! DUH!
I am sre there are plans just have never thouyght about it
Naturally counter-invasion would require way more forces (and in turn losses), and be politically more costly. Why would they choose this option, rather than defense?
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
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Naturally counter-invasion would require way more forces (and in turn losses), and be politically more costly. Why would they choose this option, rather than defense?
Because NATO and the American military is not a defensive military
 

Marduk

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Because NATO and the American military is not a defensive military
Any sane military can do both. Basic strategic thinking shows that Russian forces would be most vulnerable when advancing through Ukraine and engaged by Ukrainian forces, why let them get done with that, taking over territory, and be allowed to focus on NATO forces.
Letting them have those fights separately would massively increase required forces, which in turn makes this type of intervention even less likely due to increased risk and effort.
 

Zachowon

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Any sane military can do both. Basic strategic thinking shows that Russian forces would be most vulnerable when advancing through Ukraine and engaged by Ukrainian forces, why let them get done with that, taking over territory, and be allowed to focus on NATO forces.
Letting them have those fights separately would massively increase required forces, which in turn makes this type of intervention even less likely due to increased risk and effort.
We can deploy before they make it to Kiev.
Give time for more to get there.
 

Marduk

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We can deploy before they make it to Kiev.
Give time for more to get there.
Deploy from where? This isn't some shit like Libya or Syria adventure that can be done with an airmobile brigade or few, you need mechanized and armor divisions. Those take time to move. We're talking a REFORGER style operation, 2-3 weeks minimum, more if Russia starts bombing bridges, roads and ports in western Ukraine in anticipation of that. Wouldn't be so sure Ukraine can hold on that long.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Russia carving chunks out of the EU.
The usual mantra of the US and UK to maintain the EU / continental Europe under their military boot. Problem is - nobody outside of Poland buys that game anymore.
And Poland still has delusions of being the Poland empire.
The Baltics are a thing,the Skandinavian countires have their bones to pick with Russia for historic reasons, too as is Romania, the German Greens are not the biggest fans of the Russians, also a bunch ofmpoliticians in the low countires were raising a stink about Russia not so long ago, and you have people like Borel(sp).
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
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Deploy from where? This isn't some shit like Libya or Syria adventure that can be done with an airmobile brigade or few, you need mechanized and armor divisions. Those take time to move. We're talking a REFORGER style operation, 2-3 weeks minimum, more if Russia starts bombing bridges, roads and ports in western Ukraine in anticipation of that. Wouldn't be so sure Ukraine can hold on that long.
The Airborne units can stall.
It's thier job
 

Marduk

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The Airborne units can stall.
It's thier job
Its a matter of scale.
They can do it.
In this scenario, they can do it once.
Outside of WW3, in which case what happens next matters less, US government won't be willing to suffer the political fallout of taking such casualties.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
The Airborne units can stall.
It's thier job
How noble of you to offer them as sacrificial pawn, I'm sure Pentagon is fully on board with your plan to sacrifice whole brigades of troops as disposable speed bumps. In fantastical scenario of a full scale Russian invasion, the USA will continue it's strategy of fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian. Nothing more, nothing less.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
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We will sell Ukraine weapons, we will not be sending troops (or more accurately formal troops, as we already have 'advisors' and 'trainers' on the ground), no matter how NATO bitches (of course if we dissolve NATO, then the issue would be moot).

Ukraine is not in NATO, even if some want to treat it as though it is, and the current gov are working with Neo-Nazi's, so they are not worth defending with US lives, at all.

The US populace has no desire for another war, particularly one that might involve shooting at Russia troops and risk MAD, and the powers in DC know this.

We should wash our hands of Ukraine, because we are not the 'good guys' there, nor is the current gov there worth defending since they are so comfortable working with Neo-Nazi's.
 

Marduk

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We should wash our hands of Ukraine, because we are not the 'good guys' there, nor is the current gov there worth defending since they are so comfortable working with Neo-Nazi's.
Welcome to the wonderful, confusing and ridiculous world of slavic right wing politics.
It is beyond such simplistic, fairy tale distinctions like "good guys" and "bad guys".
For example, in Russia, its different, they favor biker gangs.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
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Its a matter of scale.
They can do it.
In this scenario, they can do it once.
Outside of WW3, in which case what happens next matters less, US government won't be willing to suffer the political fallout of taking such casualties.
it would actually be the 173rd out of Italy I think that would be the first to get deployed. They arnt more then a stalling force until the Army mobalizes. Which we can do.
How noble of you to offer them as sacrificial pawn, I'm sure Pentagon is fully on board with your plan to sacrifice whole brigades of troops as disposable speed bumps. In fantastical scenario of a full scale Russian invasion, the USA will continue it's strategy of fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian. Nothing more, nothing less.
And here you dont understand stuff.
We would send a full division worth at the start, with more then enough AT to be a fight. Add in we have armor units in Germany that can react fast and some even in Poland.
Airborn would be the fastest to get invovled.
It wouldnt be disposable speedbumps.
So we should let Ukraine get invaded? Tell the world that "Hey, the US doesnt care if you dont have the manpower to build your army to stand a chance against China or Russia. Just give up. We gonna isolate ourselves and basically allow ourselves to be buttfucked by China or russia when we no longer have any power in the world and we are speakinf Chinese and Russia if not a nuclear wasteland...."
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
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We should wash our hands of Ukraine, because we are not the 'good guys' there, nor is the current gov there worth defending since they are so comfortable working with Neo-Nazi's.

Amusing hearing right wing Americans decrying Ukraine for working with "Neo-Nazis" and ignorant apparent both of Russian and American connections to extremist groups regardless of how nebulous/substantial or not.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Yes let a country that doesnt want to be under the thumb of legit bad guys get conqured by legit badguys...
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
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Welcome to the wonderful, confusing and ridiculous world of slavic right wing politics.
It is beyond such simplistic, fairy tale distinctions like "good guys" and "bad guys".
For example, in Russia, its different, they favor biker gangs.
That's actually kinda funny; I mean it's not a good thing, but Putin having his own biker gang is rather amusing.

Them doing a ride from Moscow to Berlin to celebrate the 70th anniversary on the Russians taking Berlin in WW2 is...kinda cool.
Amusing hearing right wing Americans decrying Ukraine for working with "Neo-Nazis" and ignorant apparent both of Russian and American connections to extremist groups regardless of how nebulous/substantial or not.
Maybe we shouldn't be funding working/with extremist groups.

I mean it's not like we have multiple examples of trying to use extremist groups we funded to fight the Commies/Russians, etc turning back to attack us down the road.

And I guess after Operation Paperclip, the US powers that be have little problem working with Nazi's if it will help get an edge over Russia.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
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That's actually kinda funny; I mean it's not a good thing, but Putin having his own biker gang is rather amusing.

Them doing a ride from Moscow to Berlin to celebrate the 70th anniversary on the Russians taking Berlin in WW2 is...kinda cool.

Do you always downplay things in such a farcical and hypocritical manner?

Bacle said:
Maybe we shouldn't be funding working/with extremist groups.

I mean it's not like we have multiple examples of trying to use extremist groups we funded to fight the Commies/Russians, etc turning back to attack us down the road.

That's foreign relations for you. I understand your principled enough to completely cut off a Democratic country with a Pro-Western government supporter by our Eastern European allies for a expansionist authoritarian foreign power based on the governments association with one battalion that over half a decade ago had a minority representation of between 10-20% estimated "Neo-Nazis" while fapping over Russian criminal biker gangs, far right and White Supremacists groups like the RIM, the Titushky eyc and the Russians backing the deployment of its own Islamist and Ethnic militias in countries other then their own but at least try to have some nuance in your stances.

Your standards are about so shallow that it could probably be applied to Trump or any other major political faction in America considering how nebulous and convenient your labeling of "extremists" is.

Bacle said:
And I guess after Operation Paperclip, the US powers that be have little problem working with Nazi's if it will help get an edge over Russia.

As opposed to Operation Alsos or Operation Ossavakim?
 

Marduk

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That's actually kinda funny; I mean it's not a good thing, but Putin having his own biker gang is rather amusing.

Them doing a ride from Moscow to Berlin to celebrate the 70th anniversary on the Russians taking Berlin in WW2 is...kinda cool.
Maybe we shouldn't be funding working/with extremist groups.

I mean it's not like we have multiple examples of trying to use extremist groups we funded to fight the Commies/Russians, etc turning back to attack us down the road.

And I guess after Operation Paperclip, the US powers that be have little problem working with Nazi's if it will help get an edge over Russia.
Lets not forget working with the fucking Taliban in the 80's. And with commie-leaning Kurds in Syrian Civil War. Its proxy guerilla wars you are dealing with here, if you want your guerilla proxies to be perfectly milquetoast people who have all the correct, moderate stances on all the controversial questions in today's west... sorry, you are going to be stuck with no guerilla proxies, because people with politically milquetoast western views, especially non-westerners with such views, simply aren't the type to be guerillas. You can probably get them to run a humanitarian NGO or press freedom NGO. Guerillas? Not really.
On the other hand, just because you want to help them in the fight at hand, doesn't mean you need to be their BFF, in everything, at all times, and agree with everything they do, forever. Just that it is in your interest for them to win the fight at hand.

Even Polish nationalists, who have their own more specific beef with Ukrainian nationalists and their historical exemplars than "muh right wing extremists", are generally more than fine with the idea of having them fight Russians or die trying, under "whoever dies, we win, wish it was possible for both sides to lose, somehow" logic if nothing else.
I mean it's not like we have multiple examples of trying to use extremist groups we funded to fight the Commies/Russians, etc turning back to attack us down the road.
Good observation, but that's more of a warning to avoid supporting groups with wider reaching ideologies that have international adherents and ambitions reaching your part of the globe too.
 
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WolfBear

Well-known member
We will sell Ukraine weapons, we will not be sending troops (or more accurately formal troops, as we already have 'advisors' and 'trainers' on the ground), no matter how NATO bitches (of course if we dissolve NATO, then the issue would be moot).

Ukraine is not in NATO, even if some want to treat it as though it is, and the current gov are working with Neo-Nazi's, so they are not worth defending with US lives, at all.

The US populace has no desire for another war, particularly one that might involve shooting at Russia troops and risk MAD, and the powers in DC know this.

We should wash our hands of Ukraine, because we are not the 'good guys' there, nor is the current gov there worth defending since they are so comfortable working with Neo-Nazi's.

Neo-Nazis are highly useful as cannon fodder. Better that they die fighting to free Ukraine from Russian occupation than more decent Ukrainians die for this.
 

WolfBear

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...fair point.

Yeah, for them, martyrdom would be the sweetest possible reward out there. Though on the flip side, this would mean that Ukrainians would have even more Nazis to worship as their heroes in fighting for their independence (they already have Stepan Bandera and his gang, after all). Still, it's a worthy sacrifice.
 

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