Russian collusion

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
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Honestly while I thought the collusion stuff was bogus and no matter how much Hilary whined, I highly doubt anything the Russians did materially affected the election, the fact the Justice Dept. has fumbled on investigated Russian troll farms is surprising to me. Because while their effectiveness was laughable at best I'm pretty sure they existed in one form or another.

I always assumed that beyond everything else, they'd at least be able to prove that the Russians (along with the Iranians, Chibese etc) were attempting to meddle in our elections through trolling and bots.

Epic fail.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Honestly while I thought the collusion stuff was bogus and no matter how much Hilary whined, I highly doubt anything the Russians did materially affected the election, the fact the Justice Dept. has fumbled on investigated Russian troll farms is surprising to me. Because while their effectiveness was laughable at best I'm pretty sure they existed in one form or another.

I always assumed that beyond everything else, they'd at least be able to prove that the Russians (along with the Iranians, Chibese etc) were attempting to meddle in our elections through trolling and bots.

Epic fail.
That... actually showed up in NATO FM-9 (link is to a personal copy that I downloaded), and it isn't just trolls and bots, it was a full spectrum intelligence operation. We're talking not only trolls and bots but also information and memetic warfare with HUMINT (Human Intelligence) operations. It is crazy at the end of the day and shows just how much Putin and associates want the world to burn.

The thing is, the moment HUMINT indications happened, it became Counterintell and that is rarely shared with the public.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
That... actually showed up in NATO FM-9 (link is to a personal copy that I downloaded), and it isn't just trolls and bots, it was a full spectrum intelligence operation. We're talking not only trolls and bots but also information and memetic warfare with HUMINT (Human Intelligence) operations. It is crazy at the end of the day and shows just how much Putin and associates want the world to burn.

The thing is, the moment HUMINT indications happened, it became Counterintell and that is rarely shared with the public.
Regardless, this is still a bad look for the Democrats, and serves to further undermine the "Trump only won through Russian interference" narrative.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Regardless, this is still a bad look for the Democrats, and serves to further undermine the "Trump only won through Russian interference" narrative.
You've got to remember the entire spy game is essentially a game of trying to navigate the 'you know that I know that you know that I know...' mire, and counterintelligence is no exception.

Also, this happens on occasion, particularly when it would threaten larger undercover operations/informant rings.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
You've got to remember the entire spy game is essentially a game of trying to navigate the 'you know that I know that you know that I know...' mire, and counterintelligence is no exception.

Also, this happens on occasion, particularly when it would threaten larger undercover operations/informant rings.
Then perhaps the Democrats shouldn't have tied so much of their narrative into something that was clearly never going to come through for them. Personally, the whole "spy game" thing sickens me to the core, and I don't believe more than a fraction of what goes on is truly necessary.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Then perhaps the Democrats shouldn't have tied so much of their narrative into something that was clearly never going to come through for them. Personally, the whole "spy game" thing sickens me to the core, and I don't believe more than a fraction of what goes on is truly necessary.
The thing is, with the evidence and the fact that Russia is getting nostalgic, it was something of an inevitability that it would be latched onto.

It also doesn't help that people like you don't have this thing called context.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
The thing is, with the evidence and the fact that Russia is getting nostalgic, it was something of an inevitability that it would be latched onto.

It also doesn't help that people like you don't have this thing called context.
Enlighten me then.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Enlighten me then.
Espionage has been a thing for as long as humanity had civilizations. Something that people love to forget. Counterintelligence is just as old. Which is also something that people love to forget. Espionage and counter-espionage is a war of its own, and due to the very nature, you won't hear much about it unless something goes very wrong or gets linked to a problem down the line. You can't parade your achievements in this war of cloaks and daggers, for it only reveals one's toolkit as it were and that makes one's job in the field harder.

Another thing about this field is that it takes time no matter what you do. You can't do stuff in a day, you need information, statistics, and more to do well in this field alongside a massive network of informants, double agents, and more, and those don't pop up from the ground. That sort of thing is more akin to a garden than anything, something that you have to grow, something that takes time to cultivate. Since these networks don't grow on trees, simply revealing them is -in common sense- the stupidest thing you can do unless you have no other choice.

That is how the KKK and organized crime got their backs broken (politically) in the US, the FBI took the time and resources to create a massive network of informants and undercover operatives alongside using information and eventually use the organizations' people against them.

Russia is an undisputed master of HUMINT and has been using it in what is known to us as 'active measures' for decades. The reason that anti-vaxx in Africa is so strong and efforts to stop HIV went so poorly? The Soviets made the majority of the people of Africa think that vaccines are bad and HIV was an American bioweapons program, I shit you not. The current -apparent- goal -thanks, in an ironic twist of fate, to their variant of Mein Kampf- of Putin and his associates is simply burning down the entire world order and damn the consequences. So, destabilize the West as much as possible using their toolbox -particularly their HUMINT tools- to do so.

The GOP made it even easier by being the perfect pawn, as they've kept kicking out anyone that doesn't toe the party line (i.e. power over all other considerations including country) without exception (I distinctly remember the 'RINO' purges that happened in the '90s and early 2000s), leaving fewer and fewer voices of reason within the party. As these voices of reason got kicked out, the more insane in ideology they got. The fewer voices of reason in the party, the easier it is to make them into pawns.

Trump, well, Trump went to Russia and thus has a file, a Kompromat file, where every dirty secret done in Russia is kept. Bernie would have such a file as well, as they do this to every foreigner, just in case if it becomes useful later.

So, Russia used its entire toolbox and tip the scales enough to ensure Trump got elected... and no matter what Trump did, Russia is reaping the benefits. Russia also didn't simply do this to the US, they did this across all of western Europe, Brexit is being investigated for having irregularities of the Russian kind, France's Trump was backed by Russia but failed due to how France's election system works (and the fact that if he did win, he would probably be overthrown in a military coup... something that has happened before)...
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
Espionage has been a thing for as long as humanity had civilizations. Something that people love to forget. Counterintelligence is just as old. Which is also something that people love to forget. Espionage and counter-espionage is a war of its own, and due to the very nature, you won't hear much about it unless something goes very wrong or gets linked to a problem down the line. You can't parade your achievements in this war of cloaks and daggers, for it only reveals one's toolkit as it were and that makes one's job in the field harder.

Another thing about this field is that it takes time no matter what you do. You can't do stuff in a day, you need information, statistics, and more to do well in this field alongside a massive network of informants, double agents, and more, and those don't pop up from the ground. That sort of thing is more akin to a garden than anything, something that you have to grow, something that takes time to cultivate. Since these networks don't grow on trees, simply revealing them is -in common sense- the stupidest thing you can do unless you have no other choice.

That is how the KKK and organized crime got their backs broken (politically) in the US, the FBI took the time and resources to create a massive network of informants and undercover operatives alongside using information and eventually use the organizations' people against them.

Russia is an undisputed master of HUMINT and has been using it in what is known to us as 'active measures' for decades. The reason that anti-vaxx in Africa is so strong and efforts to stop HIV went so poorly? The Soviets made the majority of the people of Africa think that vaccines are bad and HIV was an American bioweapons program, I shit you not. The current -apparent- goal -thanks, in an ironic twist of fate, to their variant of Mein Kampf- of Putin and his associates is simply burning down the entire world order and damn the consequences. So, destabilize the West as much as possible using their toolbox -particularly their HUMINT tools- to do so.

The GOP made it even easier by being the perfect pawn, as they've kept kicking out anyone that doesn't toe the party line (i.e. power over all other considerations including country) without exception (I distinctly remember the 'RINO' purges that happened in the '90s and early 2000s), leaving fewer and fewer voices of reason within the party. As these voices of reason got kicked out, the more insane in ideology they got. The fewer voices of reason in the party, the easier it is to make them into pawns.

Trump, well, Trump went to Russia and thus has a file, a Kompromat file, where every dirty secret done in Russia is kept. Bernie would have such a file as well, as they do this to every foreigner, just in case if it becomes useful later.

So, Russia used its entire toolbox and tip the scales enough to ensure Trump got elected... and no matter what Trump did, Russia is reaping the benefits. Russia also didn't simply do this to the US, they did this across all of western Europe, Brexit is being investigated for having irregularities of the Russian kind, France's Trump was backed by Russia but failed due to how France's election system works (and the fact that if he did win, he would probably be overthrown in a military coup... something that has happened before)...
Interesting, but that just makes the Dems look even stupider for counting on the backing of the United States Intelligence Community, in their ongoing campaign to undermine Trump in the aftermath of the 2016 election; because from what you're telling me, doing so would have damaged their ability to do their jobs to an untenable degree.
 

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