Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

Cherico

Well-known member
That is entirely up to Russia and has been all along. They started this, and they can end it, and all it will take is fucking off back to their own country and facing the music for what they did.
Yeah and we are in the process of doing that this war might take years so settle in for a very long slog
 

mrttao

Well-known member
Dude, all along you and others have been pulling out these asinine things that basically just serve as a means to argue against supporting Ukraine or try to appeal to the idea that Putin is somehow not our enemy in spite of the fact he has explicitly said that he is,
1. You are just doubling down on lying about what I said.

2. Strawman does not mean "stupid". It means "you are lying about what I said"
You claimed I strawmanned you, that is, you claimed that I am lying about what you said. Where? quote where I lied about what you said.

Nothing in that post you just made has anything to do with me lying about what you said.
It has to do with what you think my views are on putin and ukraine.

3. You are now flat out admitting that you are intentionally ignoring the argument about the warrant.
Instead you are making it about "sides". You were falsely pretending to address the issue of the virtue signal warrants. But are now admitting that "if you do not join in on this virtue signal. it means you are enemy and I will attribute a bunch of different arguments to you over this enemy status".

So the entire time you were arguing in bad faith.
I was dissecting the real world effects of the virtue signal warrant.
While you were psychoanalyzing me for "treason/loyalty"
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
World leaders can maybe suffer them, too? o_O
'World leaders' are the ones with nuclear bunkers and therefore automatically better off in an apocalyptic scenario than us. And they're the ones causing the scenario, which we'll suffer worse than them in.
subnormality said:
You said that horror movies don't really work because they have to be the story of people with no resources, that if everyone lived in luxury then horror scenarios would be too hard to imagine, that it's an entire genre of have-nots having not the means to be elsewhere- You don't have to stay in the haunted house if you can just go buy a new house.

It's a genre of the only affordable apartment being next door to a satanic cult. It's shoddy power plants being built away from cities but right next to peasants, it's people needing to evacuate because they don't have palaces with emergency bunkers, or being unable to because they're tied to the land, and you said that somewhere right now someone with superior resources was in a safe room in a bunker in a mine shaft in the middle of the desert and every night they were winning the Academy Award for Never Ever Getting Caught Up In All This and this whole horrifying event was just another year to them, and your gaze went off into the distance and your voice entered that low, flat plain where I know you're speaking to the universe and not just me.
 

Spartan303

In Captain America we Trust!
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
Osaul
Yeah and we are in the process of doing that this war might take years so settle in for a very long slog


Honestly? I don't know how. Provided Trump retakes the Whitehouse then aid to Ukraine will abruptly end. He's made that perfectly clear. He'll work to bring the war to an end via a peace deal. For all Trumps war rhetoric the man is a peace maker. And if Russia still holds any territory of Ukraine by that time they'll likely be keeping it. The ONLY way the war continues without US Support is if Europe steps up their aid of Ukraine. Something they've shown serious reluctance to do. I think they've what? Given a Billion or two for every 40 to 50 Billion we've given Ukraine?

I don't see Europe stepping up if and when Trump pulls the plug. And all the other Republican nominees have also stated clearly they don't want to continue supporting Ukraine. Without that support and with the mediocre support of Europe then what I see happening is Ukraine stalling and eventually being ground down till they physically are unable to continue the fight.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Honestly? I don't know how. Provided Trump retakes the Whitehouse then aid to Ukraine will abruptly end. He's made that perfectly clear. He'll work to bring the war to an end via a peace deal. For all Trumps war rhetoric the man is a peace maker. And if Russia still holds any territory of Ukraine by that time they'll likely be keeping it. The ONLY way the war continues without US Support is if Europe steps up their aid of Ukraine. Something they've shown serious reluctance to do. I think they've what? Given a Billion or two for every 40 to 50 Billion we've given Ukraine?

I don't see Europe stepping up if and when Trump pulls the plug. And all the other Republican nominees have also stated clearly they don't want to continue supporting Ukraine. Without that support and with the mediocre support of Europe then what I see happening is Ukraine stalling and eventually being ground down till they physically are unable to continue the fight.
I would not take any statements on that made now, one and a half year before the election, before primaries even, as something that has to hold later.
Hell, we don't know if the war will even last until the election.
One thing to note is that Ukraine aid is much more popular than illegal immigration, yet that was not dealt with anywhere near as harshly as Trump and GOP promised when they did win...

And the aid balance vs Europe is nowhere near as bad as you are implying.
_128703452_ukraine_aid_stacked_21_feb_23-nc.png
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
1. You are just doubling down on lying about what I said.
Where's the lie?

2. Strawman does not mean "stupid". It means "you are lying about what I said"
Actually what it means is to misrepresent what someone else has said. A false comparison, if you will. Like say comparing something someone said to something a retard might say.

3. You are now flat out admitting that you are intentionally ignoring the argument about the warrant.
This is basically just you going "NO U!" You realize that, right?

Instead you are making it about "sides".
No, I'm recognizing patterns. I'm also recognizing frankly the truth about the situation, which is that a lack of response to naked aggression on the part of Russia here amounts to giving them permission to do whatever the fuck they want. So all this shit that amounts to looking for excuses to not help Ukraine defend itself, or to not punish Russia in anyway for what it's done to Ukraine (or anywhere else for that matter) amounts to the argument I very sarcastically posted in all caps.

You were falsely pretending to address the issue of the virtue signal warrants. But are now admitting that "if you do not join in on this virtue signal. it means you are enemy and I will attribute a bunch of different arguments to you over this enemy status".
No, like I said above, I'm just recognizing what the consequences of things are. You're the one who's both whining about how it's a virtue signal but also represents some horrible thing that will just totally force Putin to nuke everyone you guys. :rolleyes:

So the entire time you were arguing in bad faith.
I was dissecting the real world effects of the virtue signal warrant.
While you were psychoanalyzing me for "treason/loyalty"
:ROFLMAO: No, all you're really doing is whining and hoping to gaslight people about the situation, while also making an argument that amounts to support for nuclear terrorism. Yes, really. If you're saying something that amounts to how we totally can't do something of consequence against Putin and/or Russia for what they've done because they might nuke us, that mentality right there amounts to caving to nuclear terrorism.

Of course, I don't expect someone who said something like this:
and this:
To actually be genuinely afraid of Putin nuking us so much as to be just hoping the rest of us will be afraid of that. I find it to be a lot more likely you are supportive of what Russia is doing (you did call it "based" after all) and are mad that someone has done something that might have a chance, however small of negatively impacting Putin.
 

mrttao

Well-known member
Where's the lie?
the part where you attribute a bunch of things to me that I didn't say.
based on
I'm recognizing patterns.
You are not making a real effort to address my arguments.
You are "recognizing patterns" to determine that "mrttao is enemy"
Then you attribute to me anything other enemies said, or anything you imagine an enemy might say.

Then you address my "actual real beliefs that you don't say, but I know you hold because you are enemy"
===
are mad that someone has done something that might have a chance, however small of negatively impacting Putin.
The stupid warrant didn't "negative impact putin".
They negatively impacted all the russian conscripts.
They negatively impacted all the ukrainian conscripts.
They negatively impacted the odds of ending the war earlier via putin retiring and a new russian government pulling out all troops.
They negatively impacted the odds of this not escalating to nuclear war.

But they did not in any way shape or form negatively impacted putin himself.
That is literally the whole point I made.
A point you are too inept to refute. So you didn't.
Instead you just attributed whatever else you imagined to me, and attacked that instead. While pretending that it is an absolute truism that this utter joke of an arrest warrant is seriously harming putin.
===
To actually be genuinely afraid of Putin nuking us so much as to be just hoping the rest of us will be afraid of that.
1. I am actually afraid of escalating to nuclear world war. Because I am not a retard.

2. Did you actually read the posts you quoted?
In them I explicitly said Russia will never conquer and occupy the USA.

How did you possibly get from this that "mrttao does not fear nuclear war"?

Oh, I will add that in addition to russia collapsing due to the massive damage they took from this proxy war. Another reason they won't occupy the USA is because the USA has nukes
caving to nuclear terrorism
Sticking your head in the sand and pretending nukes are not a thing that exists is not going to make them go away. No matter how much you wish otherwise.
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
the part where you attribute a bunch of things to me that I didn't say.
based on
Except I haven't done that.

You are not making a real effort to address my arguments.
I addressed any actual arguments you made.

You are "recognizing patterns" to determine that "mrttao is enemy"
Then you attribute to me anything other enemies said, or anything you imagine an enemy might say.
Everything I've said about you has been based on something you've said. You may not like it, but that is the case.

The stupid warrant didn't "negative impact putin".
They negatively impacted all the russian conscripts.
They negatively impacted all the ukrainian conscripts.
They negatively impacted the odds of ending the war earlier via putin retiring and a new russian government pulling out all troops.
They negatively impacted the odds of this not escalating to nuclear war.
That has to be one of the most asinine interpretations of this that I've seen.


But they did not in any way shape or form negatively impacted putin himself.
That is literally the whole point I made.
A point you are too inept to refute. So you didn't.
Instead you just attributed whatever else you imagined to me, and attacked that instead. While pretending that it is an absolute truism that this utter joke of an arrest warrant is seriously harming putin.
I'm basing everything off of your whine that this will somehow escalate to nuclear war, and how this is hardly the first time that this argument has been made about something being done to Russia or Putin.


In them I explicitly said Russia will never conquer and occupy the USA.
What an odd thing to say. The point of me bringing those posts up again was to illustrate your attitude of what Russia is doing to Ukraine and its people.

How did you possibly get from this that "mrttao does not fear nuclear war"?
Because I don't believe you actually do based on what you've actually said. On its face it's absurd to fear that the warrant will somehow result in that, but then there's the matter of the pattern, which looks to me more like you're just trying to scare the rest of us with something that amounts to, "oh, better not do anything, Putin might nuke us over it."

Sticking your head in the sand and pretending nukes are not a thing that exists is not going to make them go away. No matter how much you wish otherwise.
I'm not pretending they don't exist. I'm just aware that Russia is far from the only country to have them. In fact, my own country is the only one to actually use them on another country. So I am hardly shivering in my boots over the idea that Russia might use its nukes. I mean, they might be that crazy, but I doubt it. He and his lackeys threatening it amounts to nuclear terrorism, and seeing my countrymen essentially acting like shills for that is disgusting. It reminds me very much of the Leftists who insist on demanding we compromise the First Amendment, lest Muslims go crazy and bomb us or shoot us up for drawing Mohamed or whatever.
 

mrttao

Well-known member
I can't believe I am wasting so much time on you.
Shameless bad faith and strawman arguments.
And then just saying "nuh uh, I didn't" from one side of your mouth while doubling down on it from the other.
So I am hardly shivering in my boots over the idea that Russia might use its nukes. I mean, they might be that crazy, but I doubt it.
"A cornered animal is most dangerous".

If we make it clear to Putin that he is not allowed to withdraw his troops and retire. Then we are turning him into a cornered animal.
At which point it is no longer "crazy" for him to go out with a (very big) bang.
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
I can't believe I am wasting so much time on you.
Shameless bad faith and strawman arguments.
And then just saying "nuh uh, I didn't" from one side of your mouth while doubling down on it from the other.
Yeah, just say the other guy is arguing in bad faith and using strawman arguments, that'll win the argument for sure. :LOL:
If we make it clear to Putin that he is not allowed to withdraw his troops and retire. Then we are turning him into a cornered animal.
At which point it is no longer "crazy" for him to go out with a (very big) bang.
Yeah, bullshit. Putin is hardly a cornered animal. This entire business is on him. He could withdraw his forces at any time. It's more about saving face now with him than anything. As for as the court and all that - there are consequences for actions. Even if he does withdraw everything tomorrow, all those people are still dead, all those homes and businesses are still destroyed, all those atrocities were still committed, and he and others need to be held to account for it.
 

ATP

Well-known member
if he does so without a win he'll be killed by his own people.
If he try nukes,they would kill him,too.
I can't believe I am wasting so much time on you.
Shameless bad faith and strawman arguments.
And then just saying "nuh uh, I didn't" from one side of your mouth while doubling down on it from the other.

"A cornered animal is most dangerous".

If we make it clear to Putin that he is not allowed to withdraw his troops and retire. Then we are turning him into a cornered animal.
At which point it is no longer "crazy" for him to go out with a (very big) bang.
He could widraw any moment - but then kgb friends would kill him.
But,if he try nukes,they would do the same.

So,he would be sending people to meatgrinder and waiting for miracle.Democrats saved soviets many times,why not do that again?
 

King Arts

Well-known member
I actually don’t know if nukes would be used if Putin was arrested. The warrant itself won’t get a response but actually enforcing it. Say to all the other Americans if Americans like Bush, Cheyney, and Condolizza Rice were arrested by the international court and when we sent special forces to capture them but the special forces failed and were either killed or captured the. Treated like criminals, would you say use more force to get them back or would you take the L?
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
I actually don’t know if nukes would be used if Putin was arrested. The warrant itself won’t get a response but actually enforcing it. Say to all the other Americans if Americans like Bush, Cheyney, and Condolizza Rice were arrested by the international court and when we sent special forces to capture them but the special forces failed and were either killed or captured the. Treated like criminals, would you say use more force to get them back or would you take the L?
In countries like Russia, there are good chances the people making those decisions while the head honcho is arrested would be spending more of their thinking on how to use force to take his seat rather than to get him back.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Honestly? I don't know how. Provided Trump retakes the Whitehouse then aid to Ukraine will abruptly end. He's made that perfectly clear. He'll work to bring the war to an end via a peace deal. For all Trumps war rhetoric the man is a peace maker. And if Russia still holds any territory of Ukraine by that time they'll likely be keeping it. The ONLY way the war continues without US Support is if Europe steps up their aid of Ukraine. Something they've shown serious reluctance to do. I think they've what? Given a Billion or two for every 40 to 50 Billion we've given Ukraine?

I don't see Europe stepping up if and when Trump pulls the plug. And all the other Republican nominees have also stated clearly they don't want to continue supporting Ukraine. Without that support and with the mediocre support of Europe then what I see happening is Ukraine stalling and eventually being ground down till they physically are unable to continue the fight.
You are wrong though; Pence said he would support whatever helped lead to a Ukrainian victory, not just 'peace' aka appeasing Russia with territorial concessions by Ukraine.

And the fact Trump would pull the plug as soon as he got back in just shows another reason Trump will most likely lose legitimately if he runs, and why the accusations of being a Russian stooge will become self-fulfilling if Trump actually attempts to make cutting all aid to Ukraine a platform he runs on.

Frankly the way the MAGA GOP has continued to shoot itself in the foot regarding Russia's invasion of Ukraine is one of the most shameful things I've ever seen happen in US politics, particulalry when it is turning the 'Trump/Trump supporters support Russia' hoax into reality and showing how much of the Right just operates off contrarian logic more than critical thinking.

Edit:
So someone hacked Wagner's I.T. dept, got some intersting data out of it:
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Top