Russia conquers Inner Manchuria in addition to conquering Outer Manchuria in 1858-1860

[Ricardolindo]

It might have extended to Outer Manchuria by 1860. I don't how many Han Chinese people actually lived there, but before Russian rule, Vladivostok had a Chinese name, Haishenwai, I think it was. Direct translation means "small seaside village". Documents or maps from the Mongol/Yuan dynasty refer to a settlement at the site called Yongmingcheng, which to my eyes, appears almost as much Korean as Chinese.

FYI, he was banned for 3 months.
Anyways, the data of the 1897 Russian Empire census at Мови та релігії у повітах Російської імперії does show Han Chinese in Outer Manchuria. Along with the Manchus and the Daur, they made up the 64 villages, read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixty-Four_Villages_East_of_the_River. They were massacred in 1900 during the Boxer Revolution as anti-Chinese feeling arose.

 

[raharris1973]

FYI, he was banned for 3 months.
Anyways, the data of the 1897 Russian Empire census at Мови та релігії у повітах Російської імперії does show Han Chinese in Outer Manchuria. Along with the Manchus and the Daur, they made up the 64 villages, read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixty-Four_Villages_East_of_the_River. They were massacred in 1900 during the Boxer Revolution as anti-Chinese feeling arose.

That's an amazing talent, to even get yourself banned here. He must've worked hard for it.

 

[Buba]

Who got banned?

 

[Ricardolindo]

That's an amazing talent, to even get yourself banned here. He must've worked hard for it.

He posted child porn, read https://the-sietch.com/index.php?threads/leftist-child-grooming.7296/post-355109.

Who got banned?

WolfBear. It's only for 3 months, though.

 

[Buba]

@Ricardolindo thanks for 'splaining.

Fantastic map with data!

 

[raharris1973]

He posted child porn, read https://the-sietch.com/index.php?threads/leftist-child-grooming.7296/post-355109.


WolfBear. It's only for 3 months, though.

He's really got problems with fucking boundaries and impulse control and judgment.

 

[Ricardolindo]

He's really got problems with fucking boundaries and impulse control and judgment.

He is Asperger's.

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

Going back to the thread in question, if China could fragment much sooner, during the Taiping Uprising, that could also trigger other rebellions that may undermine the Qing. If you could also throw in a succession crisis by say, the early death of Prince Zaichun (the OTL Tongzhi Emperor), you can add additional destabilizing elements on the Qing as well.

Although in reality, it might be more suitable if Russia would have also annexed half of Inner Manchuria, instead of all of it, as it could still allow the Qing to maintain a common border with Korea.

 

[Buba]

Although in reality, it might be more suitable if Russia would have also annexed half of Inner Manchuria, instead of all of it, as it could still allow the Qing to maintain a common border with Korea.

The Liaotung Peninsula was populated, unlike areas north, and was Han.
A Russian annexation along the Chinese Eastern Railway would make sense. I think.

Shenyang = Mukden

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

Something like this?

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

One additional factor that may impede this plan of conquest: Russia had just lost the Crimean War, so they may not be in any condition to expand their borders, with less troops that's still standing from said conflict. In order to carry out this kind of successful expansion, you would need to avoid the Crimean War. However, a Russian expansion into Inner Manchuria could become a costly venture in itself, as the Qing still has a large army (though the Taiping Rebellion is also under way in this case). A costly expansion in terms of men and materiel could force the Tsarist government to address the military issues that they faced after they lost the OTL Crimean War.

 

[Buba]

In OTL Russia grabbed Outer Manchuria after the Crimean War, riding piggyback on the 2nd Opium War&Taiping Rebellion. A masterpiece of diplomacy and maximising gan versus effort!
Crimean War or not, due to geography Russia cannot support large forces in the area anyway. It will take a railroad to do that [hint, hint].
I agree that an even larger grab would run into Qing resistance - mental, if not military - as these were the Manchu Ancestral Lands (with ban on Han settlement etc.). But if there are Russian troops outside Peking alongside the French and British, I imagine the Qing signing anything.

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

Which is why I think that perhaps Russia should have avoided triggering the Crimean War if they wanted to keep their alliance or relationship intact with Britain and France. Alternatively, you could have an even worse succession crisis within the Qing court, where a Crown Prince dies in a hunting accident, or by poison. A succession crisis, along with more rebellions breaking out in addition to the Taiping Rebellion, could force Russia, Britain and France to intervene. Or Spain, since they're closest to China (through the Spanish East Indies, that is).