I was talking about my country. Though USA could do that when it was still a moderately important new world country, but once it became a superpower it is no longer a practical option.Not entirely true. The US was officially neutral until attacked in WWII, and neutral until Wilson declared intervention in WWI
There are other examples as well
Neutrality Acts of the 1930s - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Neutrality Act of 1794 - Wikipedia
Proclamation of Neutrality - Wikipedia
Middle East Running Iranian threat news and discussion thread
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King Arts
Well-known member
I don't know about international law to say one way or another. But the attack that Israel did against Iran in Syria was well against Syria. Syria and Israel are while not officially at war, they are one step away from it.
Iran is not at war or has any beef with Norway, thus Iran should not mess around with nations it does not have problems with otherwise everyone will hate them.
Who cares who started it, Iran can't act around by blowing up embassies in 3rd countries.
Also what you just said was very stupid. Embassies aren't in the middle of nowhere they are in big cities the capital even. If a bomb goes off there sure it will kill the Israeli/Iranian embassy staff but Poles who are just walking down the street can also get injured.
No I was responding to ATP and the Norway one, when he was defending Iran's actions in Norway because Israel blew up the embassy in Syria.
yup
Well you have to be clear because all embasies since they have high level officials might be using military purposes like high level plans which is standard, so attacking for that is not allowed, but if there are weapons and missles that are being used in a military operation that is different.
Yes it's an act of aggression against Norway. I don't care about Israel. Let them handle their own affairs but us and our allies should not accept assaults and others dragging us into their dumb wars.
So Austria is not our ally with their president who is a member of the greens?
Alexander Van der Bellen - Wikipedia
Petr Pavel - Wikipedia
Are you serious? They are a fifth column. You and @ATP are Polish so both of you answer this hypothetical. Imagine their was some weird cult in Poland that butchered half of your religion, and they claimed that Germans are a holy people beloved by God, and were God's favorite group. If you bless and support them God will bless you, if you oppose them God will punish you.
Even if you like Germany and support it for geostrategic reasons would you not look down on these weirdos?
Then why simp for Israel?! Poland gets nothing from Israel than any other mid east country. Whether Israel is secure or not has not effect on Poland.
You don't have to simp for an indirect ally.
Do you really think a super power can't be neutral/isolationist?
Do you really think that if you are the strongest you must get drawn into others politics no matter your tech or anything?
Doomsought
Well-known member
Those laws were unconstituional and meaningless. The United State's diplomatic policy falls under the authority of the President. The only authority congress has is to ratify treaties.
The Czech president HAD to join the communist party in order to serve as an officer.I don't know about international law to say one way or another. But the attack that Israel did against Iran in Syria was well against Syria. Syria and Israel are while not officially at war, they are one step away from it.
Iran is not at war or has any beef with Norway, thus Iran should not mess around with nations it does not have problems with otherwise everyone will hate them.
Who cares who started it, Iran can't act around by blowing up embassies in 3rd countries.
Also what you just said was very stupid. Embassies aren't in the middle of nowhere they are in big cities the capital even. If a bomb goes off there sure it will kill the Israeli/Iranian embassy staff but Poles who are just walking down the street can also get injured.
No I was responding to ATP and the Norway one, when he was defending Iran's actions in Norway because Israel blew up the embassy in Syria.
yup
Well you have to be clear because all embasies since they have high level officials might be using military purposes like high level plans which is standard, so attacking for that is not allowed, but if there are weapons and missles that are being used in a military operation that is different.
Yes it's an act of aggression against Norway. I don't care about Israel. Let them handle their own affairs but us and our allies should not accept assaults and others dragging us into their dumb wars.
So Austria is not our ally with their president who is a member of the greens?
The Czech president who used to be a literal member of the communist party before being independent.Alexander Van der Bellen - Wikipedia
The French are pretty well known for having the left have quite a bit of power, not to mention the EU as a whole.Petr Pavel - Wikipedia
Are you serious? They are a fifth column. You and @ATP are Polish so both of you answer this hypothetical. Imagine their was some weird cult in Poland that butchered half of your religion, and they claimed that Germans are a holy people beloved by God, and were God's favorite group. If you bless and support them God will bless you, if you oppose them God will punish you.
Even if you like Germany and support it for geostrategic reasons would you not look down on these weirdos?
Then why simp for Israel?! Poland gets nothing from Israel than any other mid east country. Whether Israel is secure or not has not effect on Poland.
You don't have to simp for an indirect ally.
Do you really think a super power can't be neutral/isolationist?
Do you really think that if you are the strongest you must get drawn into others politics no matter your tech or anything?
He is not a commie.
Attacking for any reason has its own layer of consideration due to the other country involved.
High level officials aren't made equal, if its military ones from the hosting country taking shelter there during war to do their work in peace it may be a sufficient reason.
Speaking of, such iffy situation may be behind the bombing of Chinese embassy in Belgrade during the war, as its radio comms were being used for command purposes by the Serb paramilitaries.
That's the thing, this attitude is why countries like Iran does it. We should not be the ones being worries about being "dragged into wars", it is they who should be worrying, and it is us who need to make them wary of that by action.
Sorry, no time travel, and i for one can tell presidents from absolute monarchs, so cease this idiotic trolling.So Austria is not our ally with their president who is a member of the greens?
The Czech president who used to be a literal member of the communist party before being independent.Alexander Van der Bellen - Wikipedia
The French are pretty well known for having the left have quite a bit of power, not to mention the EU as a whole.Petr Pavel - Wikipedia
I think that particular beef got toned down between the Catholic Church and protestants few hundred years ago.
Fifth column of what? Is some country that is threatening us, like Russia, an evangelical theocracy?
For some idiotic reason Iran doesn't seem too worried about being "dragged into war with NATO" by such actions.
As above, ally of an ally. Also source of nice tech, military and civilian.
You don't *have* to but it sure has some benefits for the alliance.
Well every single US isolationist here logically seems to think that.
I think that would turn messy and in long term may make it cease being a superpower.
Barring the extreme hypotheticals you love so much, yes. We're not talking some Sentinelese people with bows being the people whose conflicts USA has to be drawn into, but in more realistic terms, there are some countries who if allowed to throw their weight around enough by US inaction may become a problem for USA - some more immediately, like China's Pacific policy, some in lesser and more indirect ways, and quite often those countries in whose way US interests stand may cooperate for the purposes of countering them as they do.
Remember, China is nearing blows with the Philippines and is hoping we don't follow through with our defense treaty with them.
Go isolationist and you give control over most shipping in the world to China. Which means say bye bye to exports that keep us affordable js China buys up our companies/land and starts going around us.
But yet, China isn't a threat to some isolationists and wonder why
Go isolationist and you give control over most shipping in the world to China. Which means say bye bye to exports that keep us affordable js China buys up our companies/land and starts going around us.
But yet, China isn't a threat to some isolationists and wonder why
Terthna
Professional Lurker
For about a week or two, maybe a few months tops; at which point, the lack of a constant influx of massive amounts of American money will cause China's Jenga economy to collapse in on itself.
Morphic Tide
Well-known member
Also the power to declare war (outside Marine deployments due to Barbary Wars legislation, IIRC), which gives them much of the "final" say on international relations because those two cover most of the "hard" interactions.
King Arts
Well-known member
Ok maybe that one instance but you can't deny that many Europeans from the Norse, to the French accept actual communists into positions of power as ministers and the communist party is part of left wing coalitions in those states.
No embassies have to be sancrosanct for a reason. You are like one of those new atheist redditors who is all "Ha medieval knights were stupid with their honor. Just forget about honor and do what is most beneficial for you." Without understanding that honor and things like keeping your word or following a certain set code of conduct is more than just because it's good. It's done because it's actually practical especially if everyone follows it. That means that wars are less bloody people are more willing to surrender and negotiate and it causes less bad blood and desire for revenge and revanchism. It also insures your people are treated better and you are trusted more since you will keep your word even if it would bennefit you to break it at that time.
Trust is hard to gain but easy to lose, and very very hard to regain.
Who says we shouldn't punish Iran when they do bad acts? Don't put words in my mouth.
But we don't want to get involved in a mid east war, also your logic is dumb "Iran should be the one who worries about being dragged into wars by us!"
If you were in charge you want a war with them so there is nothing to be wary of no reasonable act they offer you and neo cons would be enough for you to not want war.
Heck if Iran offered peace with Israel and agreed to open embassies there and to normalize relations would you be ok with that?
What?
What? Evangelicals are less than 100 years old, normal protestants also don't have a historic Jew worship thing.
As for which country are evangelicals a fifth column of? Obviously Israel are you blind? This is like the historical accusation Protestants levied against Catholics of them being more loyal to Rome then their local nations(possibly justified) for Evangelicals it's obvious if you think a nation is god blessed and it is a moral imperative to support it, wouldn't that cause friction if your nation and that other hypothetically god blessed nation were at odds? In that case yes so FBI and CIA and other secret organizations should watch evangelicals just like we did for Muslims because their primary loyalty is not to us.
Ok many other nations do the same you don't seem to be on your knees for them.
You don't gain anything by being a simp.
Possibly.
Yes I love hypotheticals so are you saying that if America did advance so far that the rest of the nations were comparatively like the Sentinelese are today, think we have space ships, ftl, replicators, etc. you still think we would have to be involved in other nations politics for "reasons"?
I just wanted you to know that he had to join the party to serve
King Arts
Well-known member
Ok I understand that people who were part of the former Warsaw Pact nations have that justification. But those in western europe like Norway, or France, or the UK don't. Can we at least agree on that?
Yes. Just wanted to let ya know
They are not sacrosanct, they are protected by international law, for what it is worth, and the law (Vienna convention specifically) has certain characteristics and caveats. Part of it is that those strong protections are set between hosting and hosted parties, things get much murkier for third parties, and even more so with hybrid warfare and terrorists being involved.
And that's what happened in the end anyway.
It works only in a "club", a civilization, confederation or whatever that is structured in such a way that the members get to wage wars on each other but in a limited way, and someone can and will enforce it.
OTOH in reality some kind of more external force comes up to fight, like Mongols or Turks, and laugh at your stupid rules that are so exploitable, and then proceed to exploit them while laughing in your face.
Like Iranians in this specific case.
Assuming such a "club" even remains in this specific level of connection for long for some reason, if they get a little closer they will consider waging wars with other members illegtimate in general and their code of conduct will be to be even less bloody by settling their differences in courts and politics, and if they get a bit further apart they will no longer agree about the code.
Or in other words, medieval Europe is gone and not coming back, and definitely not in a global variant scale.
The question should be, trust of who? If you try to act trustworthy to open enemies, that's just being deliberately incompetent.
We do want to get involved in a hundred mid east wars if that is in our interest, screw your retarded pseudopacifistic dogma.
Yes, it should be, your unwillingness to deter enemy powers is what is truly dumb and cowardly too.
WTF do you mean here anyway, if they offer any reasonable deal it can be considered, but so far nothing indicates such offers may be coming, so to the trash pile it goes with the rest of your unrealistic hypotheticals.
In Polish there is a saying, if grandma had a moustache she would be a grandpa, and it is perfect to reply with to such pointless hypotheticals.
It's about more than Israel, as long as Iran is trying to go around ME and beyond building a Shia revolutionary empire, that's going to inherently step on many, many toes in a dozen ways even if not very successful, and that's why they need to be made to stop.
The current government draws its legitimacy from doing the very opposite of stopping.
That should be illustrative of what are the chances of that.
All the terrorism, spats with Israel, trouble alliances with the likes of Houthis and Hezbollah, nuclear politics etc that Iran has caused controversy with revolve around that central imperative, i don't feel a strange need to pretend to not know that like some people do.
You think it's relevant to current alliances what he was doing in a different geopolitical era decades ago?
Obviously Israel is not an enemy country, unless you are Iran or some other islamist politician, and i'm not.
If they were, like Iran, it would be the case (and Iran very much cracks down on evangelicals), but i'm not some fucking islamist nor eager to larp as one for shits and giggles as some do in the name of arguing for isolationism or some other inane idea.
What other nations? Taiwan could be something along those lines, in some ways even more so, but so it has a much stronger enemy than Israel does, and i do support allying with it anyway, so no big difference here.
And you don't gain anything by acting oblivious to world politics and pretending allies are enemies to push isolationism which in itself is worse than anything lobbies for those allied did, maybe they argue for some suboptimal decisions, but the isolationists who complain about it, they do the same, hundredfold in how suboptimal foreign policy they want to create, so they are about the last people to solve the problem of suboptimal foreign policy with.
Then it would be hard to come up with any pragmatic reasons for it, but we are far from such a scenario and most likely will remain so.
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Still Not at war.And currently Izrael is attacking them without declaring war,not Syria them.
That is good argument.
True,and i live in Warsaw.But...almost all people here are leftists,and stupid ones,too,so....statistically,nobody decent would die.
I do not defend Iran.I defend logic - if Izrael could blow up embassiess in other countries,so could Iran.
true
Well,it could be counted as attack on NATO.
True,EU is leftist monster.We should leave it now.So Austria is not our ally with their president who is a member of the greens?
The Czech president who used to be a literal member of the communist party before being independent.Alexander Van der Bellen - Wikipedia
The French are pretty well known for having the left have quite a bit of power, not to mention the EU as a whole.Petr Pavel - Wikipedia
Agree.They are fifth column,and we should kick them out.
Worst.Izrael keep lying,that we are responsible for Holocaust.We are helping dudes who made Great Replacment - replaced german genociders who really did Holocaust with evil polish nazis,which never existed.
Of course.Especially if they attack you.
Of course not.Being strongest mean doing whatever i like to do,and that include isolationism.
Only weak countries,like Poland now,must seek stronger to help them.If we still were superpower,like in,let say,1500,we could be isolationists,too.
Would it be great if Churchill lead England now? or De Gauule France? or Dmowski Poland?
Would be.Problem is,almost nobody support him now.And his father was kicked out becouse he was,well,not best or smarter King.
Even if you remove current islamist ruling there,people would choose the same or worst,not him.
Normal leader in Iran is now as impssible as normal leaders in England,France or Poland.Not mention germany.
IndyFront
Well-known member
Iran’s new president can only change the country so much
Elite clerics still hold ultimate power.
www.vox.com