Right to Repair - A Discussion

ParadiseLost

Well-known member
"They don't sabotage your phone, they just install new features that make it run super slowly" is certainly a novel take on things but do you really think it's a reasonable one?

Yes, and you're somewhat exaggerating the issue.

People want the new features and app support that newer Apple OS's provide, and a lot of people would probably willingly take the (marginally) decreased performance for the new features and better app support.

The issue here isn't necessarily what's going on, its that Apple isn't transparent about it.

There's also other things that offset Apple's problems.

I'll never buy an IPhone, but there are plenty of valid reasons to want one.

Seriously. The whole point of purchasing something is to make yourself the owner of it, deliberate sabotage of already-bought goods should at a minimum, net the corporation performing it criminal charges equivalent to more traditional vandalism.

This. Corporations are very much trying to ruin ownership rights, and we're currently on the path to a future in which the average person doesn't own much of anything.
 
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Terthna

Professional Lurker
The other issue is manufacturers being legally barred from selling parts to anyone but the manufacturer, so third-party repairers can't buy them. And then there's the thing where even if you salvage parts from other phones, they will somehow detect this and brick. This is about establishing monopoly, and anyone arguing against right to repair (essentially a form of property rights), is arguing in favor of monopolies. To try to claim "free market" in this is, to be frank, stupid. At best it is made from ignorance simply because it doesn't matter if you don't buy from Apple if all the other companies are pulling the same shit.
Something I've noticed is that, thanks to extensive propaganda efforts on the part of various major corporations, a lot of people are in favor of monopolies. This is what has made it so difficult to get Right to Repair off the ground; because, barring personal bias, the public's first instincts have always tended to side the with the corporation over the individual.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
"They don't sabotage your phone, they just install new features that make it run super slowly" is certainly a novel take on things but do you really think it's a reasonable one?

I think it’s entirely reasonable, because it’s 100% the norm in software development. Just as Microsoft does not arbitrarily restrict current versions of Windows from running on older computers which *can* run it but not very smoothly, so also does Apple generally allow iPhones to be updated to any new iOS version that the phone can run. The exception is Android, where phone makers have taken control and *do* arbitrarily restrict phones from being updated to newer versions.

An example literally in hand: my Samsung Galaxy S8 is a 2017 flagship phone which is barred from updating past Android 9.0, even though it’s more powerful than low end and mid end phones from this year that run the latest Android. The arbitrariness of this is directly demonstrated by the fact that several of Samsung’s own mid end phones from the same year can be upgraded one Android version past the S8. Samsung literally decided to give mid-end phones an extra version update but not flagships, because flagship phone owners were more likely to be pushed to buy a new phone.

In dramatic contrast, the latest version of iOS supports iPhones all the way back to the iPhone 6 of 2014. Claiming that Apple is guilty of forcing upgrades/ planned obolescence is a deeply bizarre take when you compare them to any other phone on the market.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
.

Its usually primarily about getting rid of two things:

1) Built-in "Bricking": IE, when a company intentionally booby traps a product to make it break if a repair is attempted. Some HP Printers, for example, were programmed to automatically brick themselves if non HP ink was used; there was no consumer function there, HP just wanted to force consumers to buy their overpriced ink.

2) Forced into overpriced repair contracts.

A great example is McDonalds, where I worked part time in college. A lot of people don't realize this, but McDonalds is very predatory towards their franchisers - despite McDonalds franchises over all being profitable and easily beating the profitability of a Wendy's or Burger King (19% profit margin on average vs 6% and 1%, respectively), McDonalds owners generally have the lowest opinion of corporate out of any franchise.

And here we see the total disingenuousness of repair-ists: the examples you name have absolutely nothing to do with mobile phones in any way, shape, or form.

When it comes to consumer mobile phones, what the repair crowd is specifically demanding is the imposition of (absurd) government oversight over the design of phones themselves in order to dictate that they be made “easy to repair”, a vague and constantly moving goalpost that generally involves forced modularity and part interchangeability, along with false claims that features such as bonded battery packs and screens have no purpose other than making phones hard to repair.
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
A lot of this is... well, let me use the infamous McDonalds Ice Cream machine as an example. I'm about to tell you the secret of why they are always broken. Its because McDonalds has a deal with the manufacturer that causes the repair cost to be insanely high, essentially highway robbery high.

I've eaten at Mcdonalds a fair bit, sometimes stopping by just for ice cream, across a half dozen states. I have never had thier machines break nor heard about them being notoriously breakable until this last year or so, and only as a social media meme (IE, the least reliable form of information known to man). The article you cite doesn't prove anything I'd call definitive proof, and frankly I'm not sympatric to the company being interveiwed, who, in typical startup fashion, hacked together a machine with a bunch of other's people's technology to get it on the market fast, and then found out that there were downsides to doing that and ran into problems. They then they blamed everyone but themselves, and then hacked together a gizmo to try and fix it. And then, hilariously, they complained that Talyor might have bought one of thier devices to reverse engineer how it worked and screw with it, IE, the exact same thing they're doing to Taylor equipment.

Also, it occurs to me that this alleged massive plague of disabled ice cream machines starting happening right around the same time that these two people started encouraging Mcdonald's around the county to install a gadget that will screw around with their ice cream machines.

The article also treats it like a big mystery why Taylor doesn't tell people how to access a bunch of the menus, when it's staggeringly obvious why they don't do that. It's a machine in a fast food joint, that, as the article notes, will be operated by some idiot teenager. Naturally, McDonalds has decided that it's far more likely that said idiot teenager will push the wrong button and screw up the machine than anything else, and so has decided to not let him do that.


The other issue is manufacturers being legally barred from selling parts to anyone but the manufacturer, so third-party repairers can't buy them. And then there's the thing where even if you salvage parts from other phones, they will somehow detect this and brick. This is about establishing monopoly, and anyone arguing against right to repair (essentially a form of property rights), is arguing in favor of monopolies. To try to claim "free market" in this is, to be frank, stupid. At best it is made from ignorance simply because it doesn't matter if you don't buy from Apple if all the other companies are pulling the same shit.

Other companies aren't pulling the same thing, though. There are certain shared technical challenges within the overall field of mobile phone design that make all repairs difficult, but Apple's control freak tendencies put them in a league of their own when it comes to this sort of thing. Even in this thread, when people are discussing it, Apple is the only electronics firm coming up. This makes it hard to for me to take complaints about the pervasiveness of this behavior seriously, given that it keeps circling back to complaints about Apple.

Something I've noticed is that, thanks to extensive propaganda efforts on the part of various major corporations, a lot of people are in favor of monopolies. This is what has made it so difficult to get Right to Repair off the ground; because, barring personal bias, the public's first instincts have always tended to side the with the corporation over the individual.

I seriously doubt that skepticism over right to repair is driven largely be pro-corporate propaganda in favor of monopolies, given the ubiquity of portraying corporations negatively in media.

>false
Name one reason besides that.

Too make them smaller and more compact like consumers keep demanding.
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
Other companies aren't pulling the same thing, though. There are certain shared technical challenges within the overall field of mobile phone design that make all repairs difficult, but Apple's control freak tendencies put them in a league of their own when it comes to this sort of thing. Even in this thread, when people are discussing it, Apple is the only electronics firm coming up. This makes it hard to for me to take complaints about the pervasiveness of this behavior seriously, given that it keeps circling back to complaints about Apple.
Uh, yes they are. Samsung is also guilty of doing it. Pretty sure they aren't the only ones. And this is about more than just phones - this is just about products in general, as can be seen by John Deere also coming up, as they are also guilty of the same kinds of things. The thing is, the bigger companies are going to be for doing stuff like this, not out of some kind of secret evil plan or anything, but because they see someone else doing it and making more money because of it, so they start doing it. This is why the right to repair as an extension of property rights needs to be solidified, or perhaps some kind of consumer rights bill needs to be introduced to cover this as well as things like being able to resell textbooks - there was a case a while back involving someone who's sourced some for wholesale and sold them for far cheaper than one would find them in a bookstore, only to wind up getting sued by the publisher and the publisher actually won for some convoluted reason. But this is also an issue for things like MRI machines and other medical devices, and is part of the reason why medical costs are as bad as they are.

I seriously doubt that skepticism over right to repair is driven largely be pro-corporate propaganda in favor of monopolies, given the ubiquity of portraying corporations negatively in media.
And yet they keep supporting things which favor monopolies being formed and keep them from being broken. It's almost like they're just spouting propaganda in an effort to fool people in to supporting this crap, because it's always framed in a way to sound like it's to protect consumers or some bullshit like that.

Too make them smaller and more compact like consumers keep demanding.
:ROFLMAO: Are you for real? We're talking about something that prevents you from even salvaging parts from an identical phone in order to repair one with a broken screen or a bad battery. The only aim of this is to either charge exorbitant repair fees, or to force the customer to buy an entirely new phone. Incidentally, this generates an awful lot of electronic waste.
 
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Bear Ribs

Well-known member
I've eaten at Mcdonalds a fair bit, sometimes stopping by just for ice cream, across a half dozen states. I have never had thier machines break nor heard about them being notoriously breakable until this last year or so, and only as a social media meme (IE, the least reliable form of information known to man). The article you cite doesn't prove anything I'd call definitive proof, and frankly I'm not sympatric to the company being interveiwed, who, in typical startup fashion, hacked together a machine with a bunch of other's people's technology to get it on the market fast, and then found out that there were downsides to doing that and ran into problems. They then they blamed everyone but themselves, and then hacked together a gizmo to try and fix it. And then, hilariously, they complained that Talyor might have bought one of thier devices to reverse engineer how it worked and screw with it, IE, the exact same thing they're doing to Taylor equipment.
McBroken is an automated system that checks every McDonald's and monitors how many of them are unable to sell ice cream. This proof that they really do have a very high failure rate is significantly more solid than your anecdote that you buy ice cream sometimes.

As of this moment, it's 10.24% planet-wide. In New York currently over 1 in 5 McDonald's has a broken ice cream machine.

 

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
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Obozny
Uh, yes they are. Samsung is also guilty of doing it. Pretty sure they aren't the only ones. And this is about more than just phones - this is just about products in general, as can be seen by John Deere also coming up, as they are also guilty of the same kinds of things. The thing is, the bigger companies are going to be for doing stuff like this, not out of some kind of secret evil plan or anything, but because they see someone else doing it and making more money because of it, so they start doing it. This is why the right to repair as an extension of property rights needs to be solidified, or perhaps some kind of consumer rights bill needs to be introduced to cover this as well as things like being able to resell textbooks - there was a case a while back involving someone who's sourced some for wholesale and sold them for far cheaper than one would find them in a bookstore, only to wind up getting sued by the publisher and the publisher actually won for some convoluted reason. But this is also an issue for things like MRI machines and other medical devices, and is part of the reason why medical costs are as bad as they are.

You're citing two companies, out of hundreds of thousands, this doesn't really sound like a pervasive issue here, and Deere as an example is iffy. They've consistently said that they have no problem with repair and even provide the tools and manuals to do so, what they've argued is that they don't want people messing around with the software, for what boils down to liability issues. If something goes wrong (and in the case of this machinery, that could easily involve a fatality), they want to be able to prove that it wasn't their fault. Also, put bluntly, I seriously doubt that the farmers arguing over this have the technical skills required to actually repair a software issue, so gaining this "right" changes nothing.

As for the MRIs and other medical devices, absolutely not. If my life depends on the proper function of a medical device, the absolute last thing I want to hear is "oh, well it broke down the other week and we had some local yokel tech take a look at it, he thinks it works now." Some machinery is so inherently dangerous or important that strictly controlling who can poke around with it is absolutely necessary.

And yet they keep supporting things which favor monopolies being formed and keep them from being broken. It's almost like they're just spouting propaganda in an effort to fool people in to supporting this crap, because it's always framed in a way to sound like it's to protect consumers or some bullshit like that.

The only person in this thread who's said anything about protecting consumers is me, just now, when I suggested it's not a good idea to let rando calrassian poke around inside an MRI machine. So perhaps address your comments to arguments that have actually been made here?

:ROFLMAO: Are you for real? We're talking about something that prevents you from even salvaging parts from an identical phone in order to repair one with a broken screen or a bad battery. The only aim of this is to either charge exorbitant repair fees, or to force the customer to buy an entirely new phone. Incidentally, this generates an awful lot of electronic waste.

Citation for the bolded, please?

McBroken is an automated system that checks every McDonald's and monitors how many of them are unable to sell ice cream. This proof that they really do have a very high failure rate is significantly more solid than your anecdote that you buy ice cream sometimes.

I did see that in the article, however I couldn't find any third party confirmation of it's validity, the closest I could find was the develop claiming to have biked around to a few McDonalds in berlin to check them. Given that in almost 30 years I've never heard anything about this (and google trends backs me up on this) I'm disinclined to take the word of random internet strangers that no, it's totally a huge deal and always has been.
 
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ParadiseLost

Well-known member
And here we see the total disingenuousness of repair-ists: the examples you name have absolutely nothing to do with mobile phones in any way, shape, or form.

When it comes to consumer mobile phones, what the repair crowd is specifically demanding is the imposition of (absurd) government oversight over the design of phones themselves in order to dictate that they be made “easy to repair”, a vague and constantly moving goalpost that generally involves forced modularity and part interchangeability, along with false claims that features such as bonded battery packs and screens have no purpose other than making phones hard to repair.

No, that's not really a goal of the wider movement, which is what everyone here is telling you. Small phone repair companies may be interested in this because it would be lucrative for them, but consumers (who actually drive consumer protection policy) don't really care about this.

The article also treats it like a big mystery why Taylor doesn't tell people how to access a bunch of the menus, when it's staggeringly obvious why they don't do that. It's a machine in a fast food joint, that, as the article notes, will be operated by some idiot teenager. Naturally, McDonalds has decided that it's far more likely that said idiot teenager will push the wrong button and screw up the machine than anything else, and so has decided to not let him do that.

This is something clearly written by someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

Like, for example, none of what you've said matters, because McDonalds still tries to force all franchisers to sign exclusive and insanely overpriced repair deals with Taylors, which McDonalds corporate gets kickbacks from.

Its very obvious why this is happening, and its nothing to do with worrying about employees breaking something - hell, there's no reason they couldn't just allow the managers to put a passcode on the machine if that was the problem, but anyway, there shouldn't even be anything teenagers could break just by looking at diagnostic information.
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
You're citing two companies, out of hundreds of thousands, this doesn't really sound like a pervasive issue here, and Deere as an example is iffy. They've consistently said that they have no problem with repair and even provide the tools and manuals to do so, what they've argued is that they don't want people messing around with the software, for what boils down to liability issues. If something goes wrong (and in the case of this machinery, that could easily involve a fatality), they want to be able to prove that it wasn't their fault. Also, put bluntly, I seriously doubt that the farmers arguing over this have the technical skills required to actually repair a software issue, so gaining this "right" changes nothing.
That's is not in agreement with the things I've been reading about them coming out of actual court cases. Like other manufacturers, John Deere used to be cool with people wrenching on them themselves, but that isn't the case anymore. Oh, and just because I only cite a couple of examples doesn't mean that those are the only examples. That's probably one of the dumbest logical fallacies anyone could ever try to use.

As for the MRIs and other medical devices, absolutely not. If my life depends on the proper function of a medical device, the absolute last thing I want to hear is "oh, well it broke down the other week and we had some local yokel tech take a look at it, he thinks it works now." Some machinery is so inherently dangerous or important that strictly controlling who can poke around with it is absolutely necessary.
That's the argument they made (indeed, the anti-self repair types always claim consumer protection), but the fact is that there's no reason to assume a third party repairer isn't going to know what the hell they're doing, and the court found exactly that, thankfully. And that's with medical tech - this argument has even less legitimacy when applied to much more common consumer products.

The only person in this thread who's said anything about protecting consumers is me, just now, when I suggested it's not a good idea to let rando calrassian poke around inside an MRI machine. So perhaps address your comments to arguments that have actually been made here?
Why would I do that when it's a very common argument against self-repair? Or even in general when it applies to other things that create and enforce monopolies? Like how one of the arguments against services like Lyft and Uber was that it represented a danger to consumers that just anyone could be a driver.

Citation for the bolded, please?
:LOL: I have a better idea - why don't you explain to the class why exactly one should not be able to use the parts from one phone to replace damaged parts from another identical phone. You, for real, said it was about making them more compact, but that has nothing at all to do with something like that, which is one of the issues being discussed here. You literally cannot use parts from one phone of identical model to repair another one, or it will brick the device. So please, explain a reason for this that is other than maximizing profit by requiring in-house repair that the company can charge whatever price it feels like (such is the case with monopolies, after all), or just requiring the customer to purchase another device.
 

Battlegrinder

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Obozny
Really? You ever stop to consider, then, why you feel the need to defend corporations so blindly? Or why you're more inclined to take their word over someone else's?

Phone repair companies, third pary parts manufacturers, and Kytch are also corporations.

This is something clearly written by someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

Like, for example, none of what you've said matters, because McDonalds still tries to force all franchisers to sign exclusive and insanely overpriced repair deals with Taylors, which McDonalds corporate gets kickbacks from.

Yeah, that's how franchising works. If you want totally control over who you hire and what you buy and how you run it and how you fix it, then open your own fast food restaurant instead of a franchise.

Also, the article doesn't establish anything about McDonalds getting a kickback from Taylor, it just quotes a guy that is directly competing with Taylor's repair service (IE, a completely biased and untrustworthy source) alleging that they do so, and further alleging the service is overcosted, despite him having absolutely no relevant expertise.

Its very obvious why this is happening, and its nothing to do with worrying about employees breaking something - hell, there's no reason they couldn't just allow the managers to put a passcode on the machine if that was the problem, but anyway, there shouldn't even be anything teenagers could break just by looking at diagnostic information.

The article itself undermines the idea that just letting the owner have all that data would help, as it shows that they clearly do not have the skillset to use it.

One franchisee, who asked that WIRED not identify him for fear of retribution from McDonald’s, told me that the ice cream machine at one of his restaurants had been down practically every week due to a mysterious failure during its pasteurization cycle. He’d scrutinized the assembly of the machine again and again, to no avail.


Installing Kytch revealed almost instantly that an overeager employee was putting too much mix in one of the machine’s hoppers. Today the franchisee wakes up every morning at 5:30, picks up his phone, and confirms that all his machines have passed their treacherous heat treatment. Another franchisee’s technician told me that, despite Kytch nearly doubling its prices over the past two years and adding a $250 activation fee, it still saves the franchisee “easily thousands of dollars a month.”

McD Truth confides that Kytch still rarely manages to prevent ice cream machines from breaking. But without Kytch, restaurants’ harried staff don't even notify owners nine out of 10 times when the ice cream machine is down. Now, at the very least, they get an email alert with a diagnosis of the problem. “That is the luxury,” McD Truth writes. “Kytch is a very good device.”

The owner had a problem with the ice cream, and immediately and monomanically focused on trying to take it apart and look for the problem, which is not how you problem solve like this, and as it happens I do know what I'm talking about here because this is my job in real life. What he should have done is audit the process to ensure that everything else, such as loading the machine's hoppers, was being done properly, and once he had that and had confirmed it was not a process error but rather a technical error, then you around poking at the machine.

That's is not in agreement with the things I've been reading about them coming out of actual court cases.

Court cases such as?

That's the argument they made (indeed, the anti-self repair types always claim consumer protection), but the fact is that there's no reason to assume a third party repairer isn't going to know what the hell they're doing, and the court found exactly that, thankfully. And that's with medical tech - this argument has even less legitimacy when applied to much more common consumer products.

Again, what court case? The only one I can find is Philips V Summit, which is still ongoing, and on a quick skim Philips didn't allege that Summit was acting unsafely, merely that they were violating Philips IP by hacking the machines and activating features the customer didn't pay for.

Why would I do that when it's a very common argument against self-repair? Or even in general when it applies to other things that create and enforce monopolies? Like how one of the arguments against services like Lyft and Uber was that it represented a danger to consumers that just anyone could be a driver.

Because it's not very interesting to have a discussion with someone that's railing against strawmen.

:LOL: I have a better idea - why don't you explain to the class why exactly one should not be able to use the parts from one phone to replace damaged parts from another identical phone. You, for real, said it was about making them more compact, but that has nothing at all to do with something like that, which is one of the issues being discussed here. You literally cannot use parts from one phone of identical model to repair another one, or it will brick the device. So please, explain a reason for this that is other than maximizing profit by requiring in-house repair that the company can charge whatever price it feels like (such is the case with monopolies, after all), or just requiring the customer to purchase another device.

Maybe you should actually check what the point is about, because the orginal claim was about bonded battery packs and screens, not the software changes that Apple made to block people from swapping out parts, which is a completely different issue then the cited points, which do indeed exist in order to make the overall phone thinner. You can still physically swap them out, but it's much harder, because of how they're designed, but that design doesn't brick the phone, that's a completely unrelated issue that no one has defended.
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
Court cases such as?

Again, what court case? The only one I can find is Philips V Summit, which is still ongoing, and on a quick skim Philips didn't allege that Summit was acting unsafely, merely that they were violating Philips IP by hacking the machines and activating features the customer didn't pay for.
Apparently you don't watch Louis Rossman. Should give him a try. ;)

Because it's not very interesting to have a discussion with someone that's railing against strawmen.
Sure is funny to watch someone claim a common argument is just a strawman, especially when they just used it themselves. :sneaky:

Maybe you should actually check what the point is about, because the orginal claim was about bonded battery packs and screens, not the software changes that Apple made to block people from swapping out parts, which is a completely different issue then the cited points, which do indeed exist in order to make the overall phone thinner. You can still physically swap them out, but it's much harder, because of how they're designed, but that design doesn't brick the phone, that's a completely unrelated issue that no one has defended.
So you can at least admit that making it so one cannot replace broken parts themselves is only about monopolistic control. Good to know.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
In an amusing reflection, Kytch is now suing Taylor for “copyright infringement”, arguing that Taylor isn’t allowed to reverse engineer Kytch’s product even though Kytch’s product works entirely off of reverse engineering and piggybacking on Taylor’s product. Kytch is also suing for breach of contract, claiming that Kytch customers violated its exclusive sales contract by making Kytch devices available to Taylor.
 

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